Anglo Trial - Read Mod Warning in First post

BazPM

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

why don't you tell me why he should have been convicted and what crimes he committed then?

I was following the trial and found it very hard to grasp. If anything I'm ignorant myself. Hence why I'm wondering where all the outrage stems from

I haven't even followed the trial myself but to assume that anyone against his aquittal are just ignorant of the charges is not fair. Just because you can't grasp the trial doesn't mean there are no posters here who could and who would be genuinely disgusted at the aquittal.

omnishambles

Most of the posts in this thread are probably in one or more forms of contempt of court...

K-9

Judgement Day wrote: »

It won't, it will be a matter of weeks before his pals like 'Mammy' in RTE have Seanie on their shows to complete his rehabilitation. The financial meltdown was like the Omagh bombing, and Monaghan and Dublin bombings, the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder etc.etc. nobody was responsible... what a country.

Given the attitude of some on this thread about the verdict - while admitting that they don't themselves fully understand the case (I don't either) - did the jury? It took them 13.5 hours - hardly a sign that they were of a single mind. There would have been more chance of a conviction if the trial had taken place in front of a judge or panel of judges.

Would you be saying that if you got a guilty verdict?

I didn't keep up with the trial much, but my reading when it started out was that it would be difficult to get a conviction, especially when the stuff about the Regulator knowing about the loans came out.

Given what we know about lack of regulation and a general laissez faire attitude during the bubble, it isn't surprising we had no laws to deal with what happened at that bank.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

BazPM wrote: »

I haven't even followed the trial myself but to assume that anyone against his aquittal are just ignorant of the charges is not fair. Just because you can't grasp the trial doesn't mean there are no posters here who could and who would be genuinely disgusted at the aquittal.

I didn't do that. You seem to be just making up things.

Judgement Day

ThisRegard wrote: »

What?!? Why not provide me a link proving that he did bankrupt the state.

Have you been in hibernation for the last few years?

RollieFingers

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

what restaurant out of interest?

There's a very hungry monk in Greystones!

Stavros Murphy

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

maybe don't say "only in Ireland" in future so

Naah, I'll say whatever I like. The day you're in charge, I'll do your bidding.

Getting a conviction in white-collar cases is notoriously almost impossible as even the prosecution struggle to tie the seams of a case together in a manner that can be understood by lay-people. Fraud cases are very hard to get a conviction on in Jury trials as the complexity is often baffling even for forensic accountants. Trying to spell it out, in plain language, with no shadow of doubt, even if, to an expert it is black and white(which it seldom is, grey prevails) with no room for the Defence to cast in "reasonable doubt" must be very frustrating.

Try explaining a contract for difference transaction to someone, even a straightforward one, and you will at some point lose the audience. You'd need a jury of accountants to sit on financial trials - which would be a bit tricky to do. But even still, you'd wonder why this was not a slam dunk. I think the dogs in the street grasped what occurred.

Judgement Day

K-9 wrote: »

Would you be saying that if you got a guilty verdict?

I didn't keep up with the trial much, but my reading when it started out was that it would be difficult to get a conviction, especially when the stuff about the Regulator knowing about the loans came out.

Given what we know about lack of regulation and a general laissez faire attitude during the bubble, it isn't surprising we had no laws to deal with what happened at that bank.

He was never going to be found guilty and the others will walk too - the 'golden circle' is alive and well. Personally, I wouldn't have given him a trial and you can read that whatever way you want.

Specialun

I never knew there was so my solicitors in After hours

kevohmsford

What a disgrace. :mad:

ThisRegard

Judgement Day wrote: »

Have you been in hibernation for the last few years?

Maybe just for that day it was proven to be his fault entirely, call it judgement day if you will.

Kitty6277

Of course he walks. I saw that coming when the trial started :rolleyes:

Nodin

comewatmay wrote: »

The jury just found him not guilty?

The jury found him not guilty of loaning money from his bank to people for the purpose of them buying shares in that bank and inflating/maintaining the share price. He (with others) orgainised loans from his bank to people for the purpose of buying shares in that bank and inflating/maintaining the share price. How he's not guilty, or how they found him not guilty has yet to be explained to me, nor do I understand.

Knob Longman

Cowards country

As he walked free from court,asked had he any statement about his aquittal, Seanie Fitz paused, and had this to say*:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzRQ4QrZnXQ

(*in my head. g'way from me ye winged lawyer monkeys of Seanie!)

Santa Cruz

Judgement Day wrote: »

He was never going to be found guilty and the others will walk too - the 'golden circle' is alive and well. Personally, I wouldn't have given him a trial and you can read that whatever way you want.

Another brave keyboard warrior

K-9

Judgement Day wrote: »

He was never going to be found guilty and the others will walk too - the 'golden circle' is alive and well. Personally, I wouldn't have given him a trial and you can read that whatever way you want.

Given your user name.....................;)

There's a lot of people I wouldn't give a trial too as well, but the Irish courts aren't based on an AH wishlist.

Mr.Micro

Judgement Day wrote: »

He was never going to be found guilty and the others will walk too - the 'golden circle' is alive and well. Personally, I wouldn't have given him a trial and you can read that whatever way you want.

That's the way it works here, alas. When this type of thing happens again, there will still be no laws to cover wrongdoing. Fitzpatrick was just part of a widespread systematic rottenness that exists in the banking sector, regulator and department of finance.

mikom

As if Sean Fitzpatrick walks anywhere.
Chauffeur all the way you proles..................

Adamantium

Some people here want everybody they hate in society to be dragged into an alley with a bag over their head and shot, but if the bag was lifted, and they discovered there was there own family or friend that the mob dragged in, what would you want?

This grasp at taking the zeitgeist opinion and ramble, and spouting it off as your own has riddled the internet and boards.

It seems most people have ever had an original opinion that was there own

RollieFingers

The Ultimate Warrior wrote: »

WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT COUTROOM WAS ALREADY WRITTEN; SEAN FITZPATRICK - for the walls of justice are built on fear WHERE GREATER MEN HAVE FALLEN FOR LESSER CRIMES - which has contributed to your false sense of security and invincibility but let it be known what goes around; COMES AROUND and should the warrior seek you out and you feel the strong arm of the ULTIMATE WARRIOR then the repercussions will resound -- within your family walls not just for those generations to come but that they shall be felt FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRR.................

A guerilla press slam would sort the oul divil out!

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

Would you be saying that if you got a guilty verdict?

I didn't keep up with the trial much, but my reading when it started out was that it would be difficult to get a conviction, especially when the stuff about the Regulator knowing about the loans came out.

Given what we know about lack of regulation and a general laissez faire attitude during the bubble, it isn't surprising we had no laws to deal with what happened at that bank.

....the judge directed them to ignore all that about the regulator......We've no laws to deal with a lot of what went on, but we had some laws to deal with the share price issue.

mikom

Adamantium wrote: »

Some people here want everybody they hate in society to be dragged into an alley with a bag over their head and shot

Everybody they hate in society shot?
Let me know when even one is dealt with.....

Muise...

Judgement Day wrote: »

It won't, it will be a matter of weeks before his pals like 'Mammy' in RTE have Seanie on their shows to complete his rehabilitation. The financial meltdown was like the Omagh bombing, and Monaghan and Dublin bombings, the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder etc.etc. nobody was responsible... what a country.

Seriously?

Finding someone not guilty is NOT the same as not finding the guilty parties at all.

And if you must, tastelessly, compare the desire for justice in an economic clusterfcuk with the search for justice in murder, the same rule applies - if there is not sufficient evidence to convict, a jury must acquit and the search goes on. Sometimes there are stupid mistakes and outright wrongdoings in investigations and prosecutions, but at least the ones you mention are the more benign opposite to the Guildford Four and Birmingham Six.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Judgement Day wrote: »

It won't, it will be a matter of weeks before his pals like 'Mammy' in RTE have Seanie on their shows to complete his rehabilitation. The financial meltdown was like the Omagh bombing, and Monaghan and Dublin bombings, the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder etc.etc. nobody was responsible... what a country.
.

Easily one of the most idiotic posts I've read on boards

ShaggyQueen

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

being in debt doesn't equate to being bankrupt. Not that hard to grasp really.

Eh? The country couldn't pay the debt or finance the running of the country. Hence the whole bailout thing.

hatrickpatrick

Adamantium wrote: »

Its only justice if I like the result.

Otherwise I'll simply resort to ad homenim remarks about the individual followed by a nebulous ramble, that is based on my own fanciful narrative (you were there of course, even though you weren't, so you'd know) and not the evidence presented.

Please tell me where and when they burned all the evidence that could have been presented?

End of line.

That's not the suggestion, really. The suggestion is that some highly unethical behaviors should be illegal in cases like these, but our spineless politicians refuse to legislate against them.

hatrickpatrick

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

+1

The faux outrage here is hilarious. Fitzpatrick was a wreckless ****e, and he was an integral part of an institution which led to a downturn in our economy . He's probably not the nicest man but I'm not going to pretend like I'm in a better position than the jurors in this complex trial to decide on his innocence.

All the bar stool lawyers obviously think different though

But you said it there in your post, he was a reckless ****e. At what point do you believe negligence should become criminal negligence?

Judgement Day

Adamantium wrote: »

Some people here want everybody they hate in society to be dragged into an alley with a bag over their head and shot, but if the bag was lifted, and they discovered there was there own family or friend that the mob dragged in, what would you want?

This grasp at taking the zeitgeist opinion and ramble, and spouting it off as your own has riddled the internet and boards.

It seems most people have ever had an original opinion that was there own

My family and friends don't behave in the the way that the 'golden circle' behaves and thus wouldn't be in an alley with a bag over their heads. That said the way this country is going .....

ShaggyQueen

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

that's def not true. As much as you probably want to believe it. Majority of the population wouldn't even recognise him

He lives in Greystones, I'm sure the locals would recognise him. But you know better than everybody it appears :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Easily one of the most idiotic posts I've read on boards

You can't have read that many posts so.

hatrickpatrick

comewatmay wrote: »

The jury just found him not guilty?

They found him personally not guilty, they did not find that the loans were legal.
The question put to them was not whether the loans themselves were illegal but whether Seanie knew about them and did nothing to stop them.
It'll be interesting to see what happens to his colleagues. This isn't over until the entire trial is closed.

msg11

I'm actully thinking, if I vote Sinn Fein in the next election and they get into power and turn out just like all the others (which will happen) maybe the scummers will feel like they have been used and lied to and actually do something about it.

Cause I won't be voting FF, FG or LAB ever again. It's not just there fairly on this, it's just everything there doing is exactly what they said they wouldn't do.

I couldn't claim and allowance for a pencil parer let alone one for a pencil, yet it seems you can claim an allowance for just about anything once your a TD, seemly endless supply of cash for there own agenda yet we are told more taxes more cuts and shut the **** up.

Honestly think it's time we start causing a fuss. I mean the amount we are been taxed and there is nothing to show for it.

Fentdog84

SF looks like he is trying furiously to withhold a fit of uncontrollable laughter speaking outside the court. Speaks volumes.

AnonoBoy

Judgement Day wrote: »

The financial meltdown was like the Omagh bombing, and Monaghan and Dublin bombings, the Sophie Toscan du Plantier murder etc.etc. nobody was responsible... what a country.

There was a guy charged with the Omagh bombings just last week.....

hatrickpatrick

msg11 wrote: »

I couldn't claim and allowance for a pencil parer let alone one for a pencil, yet it seems you can claim an allowance for just about anything once your a TD

Don't forget about after you've previously been a TD

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1004/306947-ahernb/
http://election.ie/2011/10/bertie-claims-e377k-in-expenses-since-2008/

darkpagandeath

People do not look ecstatic getting away with something they have not done or known about.

catallus

Such wailing and gnashing of teeth!

High profile acquittals such as this happen regularly, not only in financial crime but in all sorts of offences; mercifully, the public and media have the memory of a goldfish. I have no doubt that the verdict was lawfully correct; anyone who expects true justice in the courts vies with corruption and hubris; and in cases such as this the serving of justice leaves a sour aftertaste; it is natural to see those who thirst for truth react violently when the law shows its true nature. Is there any solace for those of us who watch on in resigned befuddlement?

blackplum123

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People do not look ecstatic getting away with something they have not done or known about.

Wise words .

rawn

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Tax evasion is still tax evasion though. The garlic and apples referral tends to play down the actual seriousness of the crime.


Do many people really know enough about the law and the evidence in this case to really hold a valid opinion? I know I sure don't.

I was only making the reference cos the same judge presided on both cases

fedor.2.

The Ultimate Warrior wrote: »

WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT COUTROOM WAS ALREADY WRITTEN; SEAN FITZPATRICK - for the walls of justice are built on fear WHERE GREATER MEN HAVE FALLEN FOR LESSER CRIMES - which has contributed to your false sense of security and invincibility but let it be known what goes around; COMES AROUND and should the warrior seek you out and you feel the strong arm of the ULTIMATE WARRIOR then the repercussions will resound -- within your family walls not just for those generations to come but that they shall be felt FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRR.................

RIP

Ben1994

An absolute joke!

Montroseee

msg11 wrote: »

I'm actully thinking, if I vote Sinn Fein in the next election and they get into power and turn out just like all the others (which will happen) maybe the scummers will feel like they have been used and lied to and actually do something about it.

Cause I won't be voting FF, FG or LAB ever again. It's not just there fairly on this, it's just everything there doing is exactly what they said they wouldn't do.

I couldn't claim and allowance for a pencil parer let alone one for a pencil, yet it seems you can claim an allowance for just about anything once your a TD, seemly endless supply of cash for there own agenda yet we are told more taxes more cuts and shut the **** up.

Honestly think it's time we start causing a fuss. I mean the amount we are been taxed and there is nothing to show for it.

Such a stupid statement. What about the hospitals and healthservice, schools, gardai etc. - Do they pay for themselves?

cunnifferous

K-9 wrote: »

Would you be saying that if you got a guilty verdict?

I didn't keep up with the trial much, but my reading when it started out was that it would be difficult to get a conviction, especially when the stuff about the Regulator knowing about the loans came out.

Given what we know about lack of regulation and a general laissez faire attitude during the bubble, it isn't surprising we had no laws to deal with what happened at that bank.

Didn't the judge specifically say this couldn't be taken into account. Even if the regulator says it's ok, it's still a crime if it breaks any laws.

hatrickpatrick

Montroseee wrote: »

Such a stupid statement. What about the incompetent, bloated and mismanaged HSE, dismal education system, scandal ridden police force etc. - Do they pay for themselves?

FYP.
A fine bunch of institutions we have in Ireland to be sure. Sheer value for money. :rolleyes:

ShaggyQueen

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Any examples?

I think most will agree that his behaviour was unethical and perhaps immoral, I certainly do. However. I have no issues with the judgement today. He broke no laws.

We don't know that though, do we. He could well have broken laws, there's just not enough proof to convict him and he pleaded ignorance. Personally I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't have known about loans & deals of that magnitude.

andrewdeerpark

The prosecution is this case was a shambles. A sad day for the legal system and the stability of the country, one of the pillars of the country has failed to do its job and administer justice in a civilized manner.

Dangerous times as mob mobilization has happened for a lot less.

Amirani

thebaz wrote: »

hang on , have we not just been released from an IMF bailout - was that not caused by Anglo, the Nationwide and AIB ?? - they bankrupted this state with sheer greed, and get off scott free - ****e em

I think you need to learn what bankruptcy is.

ShaggyQueen

ShaggyQueen wrote: »

We don't know that though, do we. He could well have broken laws, there's just not enough proof to convict him and he pleaded ignorance.

Well you could have broken laws too, or me or anyone. Should anyone be convicted on what they could have done, or on what they have been proved to have done?

And of course no one should be convicted without enough proof. Why would anyone state that like it's some sort of deception or some exception in this case?

If there isn't enough proof you don't convict, if there is you do. It's quite black and white.

He didn't plead ignorance, he pleaded not guilty. As upheld by the court after considering all the evidence.

awec

darkpagandeath wrote: »

People do not look ecstatic getting away with something they have not done or known about.

Is this a joke?