Will you wear an Easter Lily ?

Dyr

Feisar wrote: »

And the boy that was on the boat at the time.

That bastard patrick pearse striking from beyond the grave again

pojfexcsc

Jawgap wrote: »

I wear a poppy

I have no idea where the money for the lilly goes so I wouldn't touch it with the proverbial barge pole.....

Knowing that the money used to buy a poppy could go straight to a Brit soldier who tortured/murdered innocent Irish people is why I'm baffled any Irish person would go near a poppy.

Jawgap

pojfexcsc wrote: »

Knowing the money from the poppy could go straight to a Brit soldier who tortured/murdered innocent Irish people is why I'm baffled any Irish person would go near a poppy.

Because the money raised in Ireland, stays in Ireland......


.....and because when and 82 year old man was dying of cancer and the HSE wouldn't do jack sh1t to help him, the British Legion in Ireland stepped in to give him some dignity and his family some comfort.

When the crunch came, his nine years in the RN were worth more than the 40+ he spent working here........

ZomB13 F1Sh

Nationalist bashers on boards, what a shocker

Dyr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Most people hold the lily in little regard because it also represents the pIRA and other republican terrorist organisations. Even the original IRA of the war of independence who you celebrate were not above killing civilians who got in the way. In my home town two people were killed in cross fire during an IRA ambush on an RIC patrol.

It's for that reason and others I would never wear an Easter lily.

None of which has anything to do with what the lily commemorates.

Santa Cruz

Barely There wrote: »

The Easter Lilly?
Nothing but a propaganda stunt for the political mouthpieces of murderers and scumbags.

I rather smear myself in dog**** than wear one.

But if you wear an Easter Lily people will think you are a real hard man

Jawgap

Does anyone know where the Easter Lilly money goes? Or what it specifically gets spent on?

ONE and BL(I) publish their budgets and show what gets raised and what gets spent (and what it gets spent on).

Is there a corresponding document available for the Easter Lily campaign or does the money just disappear into the funds of whoever is doing the raising?

DwightSchrute1

Bambi wrote: »

None of which has anything to do with what the lily commemorates.

Maybe so, but the lily is a symbol used by republican terrorist organisations.

Dan_Solo

You should commemorate events by doing something instead of wearing something IMO.

Dyr

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

Maybe so, but the lily is a symbol used by republican terrorist organisations.

No "Maybe so" about it whatsoever horse. if you have a problem with republican terrorist organisations you can take it up elsewhere, the lily has no more to do with that the ould union flag and poppy has to do with loyalist death squads

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Iwasfrozen

Bambi wrote: »

None of which has anything to do with what the lily commemorates.

It has everything to do with the lily. The lily celebrates those people as heroes.

Tommy Dillon wrote: »

Says who? You? I think this country has a serious chip on its shoulder regarding the past. They think they shouldnt celebrate the past as if we were nazis or did horrible things. Its like we did something to be ashamed of. When in fact we stood up and fought against an foreign occupier and won.... I for one think it was an amazing achievement and wish people these days took the same pride in their country instead of always bashing it.

The IRA had no problem with civilians dieing as a result of their actions. They are not people who should be celebrated.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

But civillians did indeed die as a result, just in the slightly longer term, the Island was split, a sectarian statelet founded.....none of which bothers you. Nor does violence per se, as far as I can gather.

That's not what I asked you. How many civilians died during the signing of Ulster Covenant compared to the Easter Rising?

To simply say "well people died as a result of the ulster covenant" is a logical fallacy because it makes the assumption that partition would not have happened had thee been no ulster covenant which is dubious at best and impossible to prove.

There is no hypocrisy in my position of scorning the Easter Rising and admiring the Ulster Covenant, one was a peaceful declaration of an ethnic groups right to self determination the other was a violent terrorist attack that directly resulted in the death of 250 civilians. They are totally different and only a zealot would fail to see that.

ToddyDoody

Lilies are poisonous to cats in fact

Santa Cruz

Jawgap wrote: »

Does anyone know where the Easter Lilly money goes? Or what it specifically gets spent on?

ONE and BL(I) publish their budgets and show what gets raised and what gets spent (and what it gets spent on).

Is there a corresponding document available for the Easter Lily campaign or does the money just disappear into the funds of whoever is doing the raising?

Stop asking awkward questions and just wear it.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

....................

There is no hypocrisy in my position of scorning the Easter Rising and admiring the Ulster Covenant, one was a peaceful declaration of an ethnic groups right to self determination the other was a violent terrorist attack that directly resulted in the death of 250 civilians. They are totally different and only a zealot would fail to see that.

Yep, Carson waving a flag of king billys, marching in pseudo military fashion up to the Belfast city hall to sign it, then using the list to form the UVF 3 months later - its like Woodstock, so it is.

Threats are "peaceful" now? Presumably this only occurs when those of a unionist persuasion use them.

"........stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Yep, Carson waving a flag of king billys, marching in pseudo military fashion up to the Belfast city hall to sign it, then using the list to form the UVF 3 months later - its like Woodstock, so it is.

That's twice now you have ignored my question. A cynical mind would suspect you are ignoring it on purpose to set up a straw man.

I'll ask again. How many civilians were killed at the singing of the Ulster covenant compared to the Easter Rising? A simple three digit number will suffice.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's twice now you have ignored my question. A cynical mind would suspect you are ignoring it on purpose to set up a straw man.

I'll ask again. How many civilians were killed at the singing of the Ulster covenant compared to the Easter Rising? A simple three digit number will suffice.

No more than were killed at the founding of the Irish volunteers or the Irish citizen army - none.

How is a threat of violence and declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?

Arthur Beesley

allthedoyles wrote: »

Just saw Gerry on RTE wearing his Easter Lily , and it reminded me its that time of year again.

I will be wearing one all Easter .

Will you ?

Gerry Ryan?

AnonoBoy

I will not wear an Easter Lilly.

I will however this year be wearing quite a fetching Easter Bonnet.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

No more than were killed at the founding of the Irish volunteers or the Irish citizen army - none.

How is a threat of violence and declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?

No, 254 civilians were killed during the rising. source

Not one person was killed during the signing of the covenant, it was a peaceful declaration of an ethnic groups right to self determination.

The rising on the other hand was an act of armed aggression by a terrorist organisation. They knew before they carried out the attack innocent people would die as a result of their actions but they viewed the deaths of perhaps hundreds of civilians as less important than their own goals. These are hardly people we should be celebrating.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No, 254 civilians wee killed during the rising. source
.

There were.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not one person was killed during the signing of the covenant, it was a peaceful declaration of an ethnic groups right to self determination.
.

How is a threat of violence "peaceful"?
How is declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?
How are militaristic trappings "peaceful"?

"........stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant

Karl Stein

I consider anti-Republicanism/Nationalism a form of mental neurosis at this point... 'Cruisermania'.

Yes I think Cruisermania is appropriate in honour of Connor Cruise O'Brien's maniacal hatred for Nationalists and Republicans.

"I intend to administer an electric shock to the Irish psyche"

Connor Cruise O'Brien

[CCO'B] wished to "cleanse the culture" of republicanism and would like the bill to be used against teachers who allegedly glorified Irish revolutionaries. He also wanted it used against newspaper editors who published pro-republican or anti-British readers' letters.

O'Brien stat[ed] that the "killing strain" of Irish republicanism, "has a very high propensity to run in families and the mother is most often the carrier".

a successful libel action was brought against CCO'B by relatives of Bloody Sunday victims for alleging in a Sunday Independent article in 1997 that the marchers were "Sinn Féin activists operating for the IRA"

O'Brien opposed the 1998 Good Friday Agreement

What a nutjob.

frostyjacks

The republicans hand was forced somewhat by those nice peace-loving unionists arming themselves and threatening insurrection.

To say no one died during the signing of the covenant is disingenuous. It's like saying no one died when Hitler signed off on invading Russia.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

There were.

I'm glad you've finally admitted it.

Nodin wrote: »

How is a threat of violence "peaceful"?
How is declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?
How are militaristic trappings "peaceful"?

Leaving aside the dubious nature upon which your accusations are based. i.e. there is nothing at all overtly militaristic in the covenant. But that's a really fiddly argument I'm frankly not bothered engaging in because I can run it through my head in a matte of minutes.

Your original accusation against me was that I am hypocritical for supporting the ulster covenant while admonishing the leaders of the 1916 rising.

Now you have failed to do this unless you are trying to equate the overt act of violence with a perceived intention or threat of violence. Is that what you are doing? Hint: think very carefully before you answer that because we're heading into some really deep Orwellian shít right here.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm glad you've finally admitted it.


Leaving aside the dubious nature upon which your accusations are based. i.e. there is nothing at all overtly militaristic in the covenant. But that's a really fiddly argument I'm frankly not bothered engaging in because I can run it through my head in a matte of minutes.
.

Amazing how I can answer you, but you can't answer me. Carson marched up to Ulster hall waving a flag purportedly from the battle of the Boyne to sign this

"........stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant

...and 3 months later use the list to start the UVF.

How is a threat of violence "peaceful"?
How is declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?
How are militaristic trappings "peaceful"?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Amazing how I can answer you, but you can't answer me. Carson marched up to Ulster hall waving a flag purportedly from the battle of the Boyne to sign this

*quote*

...and 3 months later use the list to start the UVF.

How is a threat of violence "peaceful"?
How is declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?
How are militaristic trappings "peaceful"?

Exactly as I thought you would reply, there is nothing overtly militaristic in the covenant.

Leaving aside the dubious nature of your claims for your accusation of hypocrisy to stand it must be true that you equate the overt act of violence (the Easter rising) and the perceived or implied threat of violence (your perception of the covenant).

FTA69

It happened in a context where Unionism was arming itself in the hope that it could defend its sectarian interests, the same people also set up the UVF during the same period which later immersed itself in sectarian pogroms. The fact you are trying to deny this wider context even existed shows a pretty shallow grasp of history at best.

There was nobody killed during most the Nuremburg Rallies either but you'd be a fool to deny they served a wider, often violent purpose.

LordSutch

Whether you agree with the symbolic statement or not, I think the design of the Lily badge as worn by Adams (for example) leaves a lot to be desired from an aesthetics point of view. I.M.O It just looks like an oversized one dimensional cardboard cut out. At least the poppy symbol (as worn in November) seems to be more like a real poppy than the easter lily symbol, mind you I've never seen a lily badge up close, so I can't say for sure.

Sunnyisland

Yes I will wear one, for me the Easter Lily is a small symbol honouring and remembering Ireland's patriot dead.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Whether you agree with the symbolic statement or not, I think the design of the Lily badge as worn by Adams (for example) leaves a lot to be desired from an aesthetics point of view. I.M.O It just looks like an oversized one dimensional cardboard cut out. At least the poppy symbol (as worn in November) seems to be more like a real poppy than the easter lily symbol, .

The New Unionist - This Week, Fenianisms graphic design failures

LordSutch wrote: »

mind you I've never seen a lily badge up close, so I can't say for sure.

...well, if you stopped screaming and running away....

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Exactly as I thought you would reply, there is nothing overtly militaristic in the covenant.

Leaving aside the dubious nature of your claims for your accusation of hypocrisy to stand it must be true that you equate the overt act of violence (the Easter rising) and the perceived or implied threat of violence (your perception of the covenant).

"........stand by one another in defending, for ourselves and our children, our cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom, and in using all means which may be found necessary to defeat the present conspiracy to set up a Home Rule Parliament in Ireland. And in the event of such a Parliament being forced upon us, we further solemnly and mutually pledge ourselves to refuse to recognise its authority."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Covenant

...
How is that not a threat?
How is a threat of violence "peaceful"?
How is declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?
How are militaristic trappings "peaceful"?

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Does anyone know where the Easter Lilly money goes? Or what it specifically gets spent on?

ONE and BL(I) publish their budgets and show what gets raised and what gets spent (and what it gets spent on).

Is there a corresponding document available for the Easter Lily campaign or does the money just disappear into the funds of whoever is doing the raising?

It is supposed to go to national graves association for upkeep /maintenance of republican graves/monuments...If you are uncomfortable paying for it...anyone selling then will give you one for free...as they rather to see people wear it rather than be worrying about a euro..

It would fairly low to stop people wearing the lily for the sake of money..as the amount of people in country with little to no spare cash...why punish them by insisting on the money when do many refuse to even consider to wear it

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

*quote*

...
How is that not a threat?
How is a threat of violence "peaceful"?
How is declaration of intent to rebel "peaceful"?
How are militaristic trappings "peaceful"?

I don't think you understand my argument, these questions you keep asking me are irrelevant as to whether or not I am a hypocrite for supporting the ulster covenant and admonishing the leaders of the Easter rising. That's why I'm ignoring them, I thought I'd made at least that much clear.

Whether or not you believe that the ulster covenant led to bloodshed later on is irrelevant to the fact that no one was killed at it's signing. In fact whether or not the ulster covenant led to bloodshed is impossible to prove or disprove because in order to do that we'd need to examine a parallel universe where the covenant never existed. No covenant does not necessarily mean no partition, or civil war or troubles.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't think you understand my argument, these questions you keep asking me are irrelevant as to whether or not I am a hypocrite for supporting the ulster covenant and admonishing the leaders of the Easter rising. That's why I'm ignoring them, I thought I'd made at least that much clear.

Whether or not you believe that the ulster covenant led to bloodshed later on is irrelevant to the fact that no one was killed at it's signing.

So evasion, half truths and lies.

Theres unionists on here that have posted in this thread that don't get the same level of scrutiny you do. That's because they're honest.

Jawgap

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Gerry Ryan?

Gerry Daly, obviously.....

tomwaterford wrote: »

It is supposed to go to national graves association for upkeep /maintenance of republican graves/monuments...If you are uncomfortable paying for it...anyone selling then will give you one for free...as they rather to see people wear it rather than be worrying about a euro..

It would fairly low to stop people wearing the lily for the sake of money..as the amount of people in country with little to no spare cash...why punish them by insisting on the money when do many refuse to even consider to wear it

No details on their website about how much they raise, from where and how it's spent....

The Golden Miller

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't think you understand my argument, these questions you keep asking me are irrelevant as to whether or not I am a hypocrite for supporting the ulster covenant and admonishing the leaders of the Easter rising. That's why I'm ignoring them, I thought I'd made at least that much clear.

Whether or not you believe that the ulster covenant led to bloodshed later on is irrelevant to the fact that no one was killed at it's signing. In fact whether or not the ulster covenant led to bloodshed is impossible to prove or disprove because in order to do that we'd need to examine a parallel universe where the covenant never existed. No covenant does not necessarily mean no partition, or civil war or troubles.

I don't remember anyone dying during the signing of the proclamation either. The fact that the Irish Proclamation led to bloodshed later on is irrelevant to the fact that no one was killed at it's signing.

And you do realise Unionists brought the gun into Irish politics ye?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

So evasion, half truths and lies.

Theres unionists on here that have posted in this thread that don't get the same level of scrutiny you do. That's because they're honest.

I've added more onto that post. I am totally honest. Perhaps you like to label those who disagree with you as unionist but it's neither constructive nor helpful.

How could a southerner even be a unionist any way? I don't advocate Ireland returning to the Union. If you're going to label me at least do it properly, partitionist would be more accurate.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've added more onto that post. I am totally honest. Perhaps you like to label those who disagree with you as unionist but it's neither constructive nor helpful.

How could a southerner even be a unionist any way? I don't advocate Ireland returning to the Union. If you're going to label me at least do it properly, partitionist would be more accurate.

...alas, such labels as I have are outside the charter.

Iwasfrozen

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I don't remember anyone dying during the signing of the proclamation either. The fact that the Irish Proclamation led to bloodshed later on is irrelevant to the fact that no one was killed at it's signing.

And you do realise Unionists brought the gun into Irish politics ye?

Ah but the lily does not commemorate the proclamation alone, it commemorates the rising and the associated 250 civilian deaths which resulted henceforth.

That's funny I thought the Arabs bought guns to Europe through the Silk road. :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

...alas, such labels as I have are outside the charter.

Ah come on Noddy, you do seem fond of me. Not a season goes by where you don't drag up some obscure quote from the bowels of my history to try and catch me out. Keep it up, you'll get me one day.

The Golden Miller

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ah but the lily does not commemorate the proclamation alone, it commemorates the rising and the associated 250 civilian deaths which resulted henceforth. :

Like the poppy you spend countless pages on boards defending. Your a hypocrite. Simple

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Ah come on Noddy, you do seem fond of me. Not a season goes by where you don't drag up some obscure quote from the bowels of my history to try and catch me out. Keep it up, you'll get me one day.

Believe what makes you comfortable. I'd say I already have.

The fact is that you're soft on militant unionism, are anti-nationalist and have what might be described as a pro-imperialist bent.

Iwasfrozen

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Like the poppy you spend countless pages on boards defending. Your a hypocrite. Simple

Well now you've just gone and ignored my reasoning and called me a hypocrite anyway, which makes me suspect strongly that was your only desire in the first place.

The Golden Miller

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well now you've just gone and ignored my reasoning and called me a hypocrite anyway, which makes me suspect strongly that was your only desire in the first place.

Your reasoning? That you defend wearers of the Poppy and what it represents? While lambasting the Easter Lily and what it represents? At least have some consistency in your arguements

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Believe what makes you comfortable. I'd say I already have.

The fact is that you're soft on militant unionism, are anti-nationalist and have what might be described as a pro-imperialist bent.

I don't know why I'm explaining myself to you when you'e just going to call me a hypocrite any way but here goes:

I'm fine with unionism as an ideology and I'm fine with Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom asserting its right to exist, as long as it does so peacefully. Despite what you may wish to believe the signing of the ulster covenant was by itself a peaceful act.

As for nationalists, I am fine with nationalism as an ideology and I respect the right of the Republic of Ireland's (not its official name I know) right to exist destinct from the United Kingdom. What I do not support and I've been consistent on this matter is the use of violence to achieve political goals, whether it be the pIRA, the rIRA of the men of 1916.

I do not support the unification of Ireland because I believe it economically, politically and culturally bad for my country but if the majority on both sides of the border vote for it I will accept it.

I'm not even going to touch you imperialist accusation because there those who would say supporting the US in world affairs makes one imperialist worse some would even say capitalists by their nature are imperialists. That's a whole can of worms it's best we don't open.

nice_very

Yes, a nice shiny metal pin one I've had for the last few years. I will also be out on Sunday to see the local commeration

The Golden Miller

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know why I'm explaining myself to you when you'e just going to call me a hypocrite any way but here goes:

I'm fine with unionism as an ideology and I'm fine with Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom asserting its right to exist, as long as it does so peacefully. Despite what you may wish to believe the signing of the ulster covenant was by itself a peaceful act.

As for nationalists, I am fine with nationalism as an ideology and I respect the right of the Republic of Ireland's (not its official name I know) right to exist destinct from the United Kingdom. What I do not support and I've been consistent on this matter is the use of violence to achieve political goals, whether it be the pIRA, the rIRA of the men of 1916.

I do not support the unification of Ireland because I believe it economically, politically and culturally bad for my country but if the majority on both sides of the border vote for it I will accept it.

I'm not even going to touch you imperialist accusation because there those who would say supporting the US in world affairs makes one imperialist worse some would even say capitalists by their nature are imperialists. That's a whole can of worms it's best we don't open.

Yet the poppy in which you defend every year, represents violence used all over the world for hundreds of years to achieve political goals. Dress it up whatever way you want, your a hypocrite. At least man up and admit it.

Iwasfrozen

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Yet the poppy in which you defend every year, represents violence used all over the world for hundreds of years to achieve political goals. So your a hypocrite

The poppy does not represent the British army in general it represents (or at least it is supposed to represent) all people who have died in war. Most of those boys who died in the trenches of the Great war especially had no ideology, no motive for killing civilians, they were trust into hell and the only way to survive was to kill your fellow humans in the trenches opposite. It was a horrible gruelling war with scores of boys (many of them teenagers) thrown into the meat grinder.

Having said all of that the poppy unfortunately has attracted association with other conflicts and I would not wear one, which I think is a great pity.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know why I'm explaining myself to you when you'e just going to call me a hypocrite any way .

...correct.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As for nationalists, I am fine with nationalism as an ideology and I respect the right of the Republic of Ireland's (not its official name I know) right to exist destinct from the United Kingdom. What I do not support and I've been consistent on this matter is the use of violence to achieve political goals, whether it be the pIRA, the rIRA of the men of 1916.
.

...but it never crossed your mind to mention the unionists, crown forces or anyone else there, did it? Case closed, I believe.