Will you wear an Easter Lily ?

Iwasfrozen

Oh I give up. Noddy, you and I are not going to see eye to eye. You see me as a British apologist and I see you as a green tinted zealot. We both see each other as fascists in our own unique ways. Let's just agree to disagree.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh I give up. Noddy, you and I are not going to see eye to eye. You see me as a British apologist and I see you as a green tinted zealot. We both see each other as fascists in our own unique ways. Let's just agree to disagree.

"facist"? Well I stand up for oppressed minorities, be they irish or foreign. I'd say the only thing some people stand up for is the british national anthem.

The Golden Miller

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The poppy does not represent the British army in general it represents (or at least it is supposed to represent) all people who have died in war. Most of those boys who died in the trenches of the Great war especially had no ideology, no motive for killing civilians, they were trust into hell and the only way to survive was to kill your fellow humans in the trenches opposite. It was a horrible gruelling war with scores of boys (many of them teenagers) thrown into the meat grinder.

Having said all of that the poppy unfortunately has attracted association with other conflicts and I would not wear one, which I think is a great pity.

And the lily doesn't represent the IRA in general either. Yes many in the British army killed because they had to, but many didn't. Has the penny dropped yet?

You don't wear the poppy or the lily, but defend one while criticize the other, thus making you a hypocrite. That simple. I must say it is mildly interesting watching you trying to justify your complete and utter hypocrisy though, so keep going

Savage Tyrant

I've worn one every year since I was 15.
I wear a metal pin one that I've managed to keep for the last 4 years. Before that Id have always worn a paper one "pinned on"

I dont get why people would look down on people wearing them. If they aren't being forced on you then why would it bother you?

tayto lover

I would wear one except for the fact that it might associate me with some of the complete shower of toerags wearing them around my town. I would hate to be linked to some of them.

I have great respect for the people who died in 1916 and often visit Glasnevin.

Wulfie

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Simply put other countries are wrong to down play civilian losses of life.

You should read a book called Lethal Allies by Anne Cadwallader . The violence perpetrated by state backed loyalist death squads is truly sickening. Its no wonder people fought back.

pablomakaveli

I'd have no issue wearing the lily. My only issue is that the people selling them are usually linked to Sinn Fein or other republican groups.

It'd be nice to see them sold in shops independent of the likes of Sinn Fein.

I'd also have no problem wearing a poppy either. It's not a one or the other situation for me.

Paramite Pie

DwightSchrute1 wrote: »

That's ok so, I am sure the families of the Omagh bombing victims will be glad to know that innocent people die in all wars.

That was a terrorist attack not a war.:rolleyes:

I think you need to remember that Ireland's path to Independence was very different to what's being discuessed in Scotland now. Ireland was desperately mismanaged during the British era and certainly oppressed. Freedom would not have come peacefully at the time and people then had no way of knowing that if they waited until 2014 that they could have calm televised debates and referendums on these issues.

Based on the knowledge they had at the time and the then recent history building up to 1916, it's not surprising that violence was the result.

Sure rebellions are over-romanticised, find me a single rebellion that isn't. Daniel O'Connell once proclaimed "An equal union or no union at all." While he did alot for equality across the UK, he failed to gain greater autonomy for Ireland. Daniel O'Connell was a pacifist and was anti-violent. He even called off protests when asked to do so by Westminster (to avoid bloodshed) but he was still arrested & jailed regardless.

If a peaceful leader could be arrested then what chance did a peaceful route have? Violence was inevitable due to the heavy handed tactics of Westminster. The return of violent republicanism in the 19th century can be directly linked to the failures/oppression of the peaceful movements. I won't be wearing an Easter Lily and I had honestly never heard of this until this thread.:pac: But I do think Irish leaders, including the more 'out there' 1916 leaders deserve credit for making stand for freedom. I don't think compulsory conscription in WW1 to fight in a pointless war was going down well on top of everything else. The more you push people, the more they push back. Due to the frequency of spies in these freedom movements, the rebellion was kept very hush hush. It came 'out of nowhere'. Because of this, the Dublin public had no time to react or take sides.

The IRA may 'claim' descent from these rebels but they're certainly not in the same class. You don't have to be a terrorist nut-job to support our rebel past.

Lia_lia

Never even heard of one.

Iwasfrozen

Wulfie wrote: »

You should read a book called Lethal Allies by Anne Cadwallader . The violence perpetrated by state backed loyalist death squads is truly sickening. Its no wonder people fought back.

Were IRA attacks confined to loyalist thugs I would agree but the IRA carried out "operations" in areas they knew there was a risk to civilian life. In effect they put furthering their own political aims above the lives of innocents. Such people do not deserve to be celebrated.

Dyr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm glad you've finally admitted it.


Leaving aside the dubious nature upon which your accusations are based. i.e. there is nothing at all overtly militaristic in the covenant. But that's a really fiddly argument I'm frankly not bothered engaging in because I Hav run it through my head in a matte of minutes.

Your original accusation against me was that I am hypocritical for supporting the ulster covenant while admonishing the leaders of the 1916 rising.

Now you have failed to do this unless you are trying to equate the overt act of violence with a perceived intention or threat of violence. Is that what you are doing? Hint: think very carefully before you answer that because we're heading into some really deep Orwellian shít right here.

Have you read the north began?

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Were IRA attacks confined to loyalist thugs I would agree but the IRA carried out "operations" in areas they knew there was a risk to civilian life. In effect they put furthering their own political aims above the lives of innocents. Such people do not deserve to be celebrated.

....but you defend the poppy. Dear o dear o dear o dear.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

....but you defend the poppy. Dear o dear o dear o dear.

Does the poppy commemorate the IRA?

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Does the poppy commemorate the IRA?

...and again, this underlines the problem. Civilian deaths bother you not at all, they're just a handy stick to beat republicans with. Likewise violence.

Merrion

Nope - it'll be the wilted nettle of self-pity for me. This year, and every year.
(Although as I am Ethiopian any bit of greenery is a bit showy-offy)

orangesoda

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I've added more onto that post. I am totally honest. Perhaps you like to label those who disagree with you as unionist but it's neither constructive nor helpful.

How could a southerner even be a unionist any way? I don't advocate Ireland returning to the Union. If you're going to label me at least do it properly, partitionist would be more accurate.

Just in the same way a Glasgow based Celtic fan can be an Irish republican or at least sympathetic to Irish nationalism/republicanism

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

...and again, this underlines the problem. Civilian deaths bother you not at all, they're just a handy stick to beat republicans with. Likewise violence.

No but it is a handy stick to beat you with when you'e being obtuse. I don't wear a poppy.

The British legion did not invent poppy badges, their definition of what the poppy is about is not the definitive one.

orangesoda wrote: »

Just in the same way a Glasgow based Celtic fan can be an Irish republican or at least sympathetic to Irish nationalism/republicanism

Surely such a person would be an Irish partitionist? An Irish unionist is one who favors union with Britain.

Karl Stein

Just ignore lads. He gets a thrill out of trying to antagonise anyone who's remotely Nationalist or Republican. A sad way of getting a buzz - pathetic really.

Iwasfrozen

Karl Stein wrote: »

Just ignore lads. He gets a thrill out of trying to antagonise anyone who's remotely Nationalist or Republican. A sad way of getting a buzz - pathetic really.

? They're the ones who keep responding to me, I had originally left this thread because it's like banging my head against a wall.

AlanS181824

A what? No I won't be wearing whatever that is.

Einhard

Each to their own, but If I want to remember or commemorate something I like to do it without broadcasting it to the world.

I don't wear a badge or a flower in memory of my late mother or grandfather, both of whom meant far more to me than any of the Rising participants, so why would I wear the Lily? Or the poppy? Why can't people remember in private? Wearing a badge is more a statement about yourself and your particular sentiments than it is about those who are nominally being commemorated.

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Gerry Daly, obviously.....




No details on their website about how much they raise, from where and how it's spent....

if you are getting it for free as I outlined will you not wear one as it removes any objections in relation to money that have been raised

each to there own...if you don't want to wear it...just say it, personal decision afterall...its understandable as some don't wish to be associated with some of Irelands patriot dead and rightly aren't hypocrites and wont wear it:)

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

if you are getting it for free as I outlined will you not wear one as it removes any objections in relation to money that have been raised

each to there own...if you don't want to wear it...just say it, personal decision afterall...its understandable as some don't wish to be associated with some of Irelands patriot dead and rightly aren't hypocrites and wont wear it:)

Quite simply 'no.'

If I was to wear a symbol I'd like to know exactly who I am endorsing and what it is they are doing with the money raised (even if I don't contribute directly) - who are the trustees? What's the mechanism for disbursing the money? What accounts are filed and are they audited? What have they done in previous years? Who benefits from the spending of the donations?

The address for the NGA seems to be a PO Box in Dame Street?

BTW - I'd encourage anyone who wants to support real soldiers to go with the Fuschia

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Quite simply 'no.'

If I was to wear a symbol I'd like to know exactly who I am endorsing and what it is they are doing with the money raised (even if I don't contribute directly) - who are the trustees? What's the mechanism for disbursing the money? What accounts are filed and are they audited? What have they done in previous years? Who benefits from the spending of the donations?

The address for the NGA seems to be a PO Box in Dame Street?

BTW - I'd encourage anyone who wants to support real soldiers to go with the Fuschia

perfectly acceptable viewpoint...you can print your own like if you wanted

its the gesture that counts IMO...why even bother with money...they should be distributed for free if it was up to me!!

however it tradionally used to pay for upkeep of republican graves

its a simple decision to remember all Irelands patriot dead in the cause of irish freedom and we can see where you fall with your support for ''real soldiers''
it is lesser known that it was originally supposed to help raise funds for CABHAIR a very worthwhile cause in itself....it is mainly to commerate and not forget those who've died for ireland

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

perfectly acceptable viewpoint...you can print your own like if you wanted

its the gesture that counts IMO...why even bother with money...they should be distributed for free if it was up to me!!

however it tradionally used to pay for upkeep of republican graves

its a simple decision to remember all Irelands patriot dead in the cause of irish freedom and we can see where you fall with your support for ''real soldiers''
it is lesser known that it was originally supposed to help raise funds for CABHAIR a very worthwhile cause in itself....it is mainly to commerate and not forget those who've died for ireland

Which graves? where? And define "patriot"?

anncoates

Is anybody else looking at the poll and sniggering at the thought of the amount of apoplexy people must be feeling about 'West Brits'

Savage Tyrant

anncoates wrote: »

Is anybody else looking at the poll and sniggering at the thought of the amount of apoplexy people must be feeling about 'West Brits'

Really? Do you think I walk around in a perma-rage every time I encounter a person day to day that isn't wearing a lily?
It's your choice not to wear one just as it's my choice to wear mine. I wear it as a quiet solemn remembrance to those who sacrificed their lives for my country. Wether you do or not bares no effect on me wearing mine and the reasons i do so.
The fact that you'd snigger at the thought of a republican getting upset that others aren't wearing them actually says a bit more about the type of person you are rather than us....

efb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM6eCYYiZHY

William might...

Scaglietti

I will wear one with pride.

tomwaterford

Jawgap wrote: »

Which graves? where? And define "patriot"?

You do realize there are IRA plots up and down the country like..two within few miles of where I live as well as many monuments in every county to mark places where people were killed...

The money raised is pittance compared to what is required hence the many benefit nights/ticket sales etc around the country by locals...

As for defining patriot is someone who believes in the improvment of their country not just being pround of it the way it is..and aanyone who actively seeks this and dies/ devotes their lives in the efforts deserves remembering IMO...though the lily is to remember those that gave their lives..it's not like you could imagine many of today's politians putting there lives on the line if it came to it...even when they were younger...

Karl Stein

anncoates wrote: »

Is anybody else looking at the poll and sniggering at the thought of the amount of apoplexy people must be feeling about 'West Brits'

Just you I'd say.

Have worn one before. Not bothered if I do or don't ever again.

Some people just like be seen to wear these things, be it lillys or poppys.

As someone said each to their own. Couldn't care less either way really.

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

You do realize there are IRA plots up and down the country like..two within few miles of where I live as well as many monuments in every county to mark places where people were killed...

The money raised is pittance compared to what is required hence the many benefit nights/ticket sales etc around the country by locals...

As for defining patriot is someone who believes in the improvment of their country not just being pround of it the way it is..and aanyone who actively seeks this and dies/ devotes their lives in the efforts deserves remembering IMO...though the lily is to remember those that gave their lives..it's not like you could imagine many of today's politians putting there lives on the line if it came to it...even when they were younger...

......and what about someone who kills or tries to kill someone who believes in the improvment of their country not just being pround etc.?

Who is the patriot then?

Nodin

Jawgap wrote: »

......and what about someone who kills or tries to kill someone who believes in the improvment of their country not just being pround etc.?

Who is the patriot then?

ye wha?

osarusan

No, I don't wear any of those kinds of symbols, even when I'm in Ireland.

annascott

I did not know what an Easter Lily was and had to google it. Hell no, I won't wear one nor will any self respecting person.

Karl Stein

annascott wrote: »

I won't wear one

That's a good thing.

pojfexcsc

annascott wrote: »

I won't wear one nor will any self respecting person.

I'm glad you regard yourself so highly above other people.

Jawgap

Nodin wrote: »

ye wha?

I'm saying if someone who is described as a patriot kills someone or attempts to kill someone who also fits the definition offered by @tomwaterford (a person believes in the improvment of their country not just being pround of it the way it is....etc) but who has chosen to work to improve their country through small changes and not through force of arms, is the former still a patriot.....

tl/dr - the definition of patriot as espoused by those promoting the Easter Lilly seems limited to those who tried to improve the country through force of arms - plus I'd say the list of activities that fall under the description of 'improvement' is, no doubt, long and unsavoury......

Santa Cruz

Should this be in the "Will you wear a Red Nose" section

Nodin

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm saying if someone who is described as a patriot kills someone or attempts to kill someone who also fits the definition offered by @tomwaterford (a person believes in the improvment of their country not just being pround of it the way it is....etc) but who has chosen to work to improve their country through small changes and not through force of arms, is the former still a patriot.....

tl/dr - the definition of patriot as espoused by those promoting the Easter Lilly seems limited to those who tried to improve the country through force of arms - plus I'd say the list of activities that fall under the description of 'improvement' is, no doubt, long and unsavoury......

Being a bit wilfull in your reading of it, given the association with the NGA and past risings.

Jawgap

Nodin wrote: »

Being a bit wilfull in your reading of it, given the association with the NGA and past risings.

Sorry, but which graves do the NGA cover. The CWGC maintain a website and you can see exactly what they cover.

Other organisations publish their accounts and details of trustee meetings - do the NGA do this?

Also they don't seem to be on the Revenue Commissioner's list of registered charities ?

Any reason why? (the RBL is)

Nodin

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, but which graves do the NGA cover.

Those of the rising, war of independence, and the recent armed struggle, afaik.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You should commemorate events by doing something instead of wearing something IMO.

And many of us do.

I mentioned what I do earlier.. I visit Glasnevin cemetery with my children, both 18 and 22 now but we've done it ever year.

Its a lovely day, and if you can stretch to a tour its even better.


Sometimes you arrive at the same time as the boyo's in their black berets, bomber jackets & dark glasses, I just leave the patriots until these pricks move on then its all pleasant again.

Dyr

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, but which graves do the NGA cover. The CWGC maintain a website and you can see exactly what they cover.

Other organisations publish their accounts and details of trustee meetings - do the NGA do this?

Also they don't seem to be on the Revenue Commissioner's list of registered charities ?

Any reason why? (the RBL is)

Sorry, but why not spend some time checking their website out?

Sorry, but would that not be as easy as asking loaded questions?

suicide_circus

I'm not a 19th century high-society dandy so I dont tend to wear flowers of any description.

oppenheimer1

Another thread which shows how out of touch boards is with the rest of the Irish population. There will be no where near 30% of people wearing the Lily on Easter Monday

Jawgap

Nodin wrote: »

Those of the rising, war of independence, and the recent armed struggle, afaik.

.....and that's where the wheels come off....

Bambi wrote: »

Sorry, but why not spend some time checking their website out?

Sorry, but would that not be as easy as asking loaded questions?

I did - hence the questions. No accounts. No trustees. No details of what's raised or how it's spent.

Plus the questions aren't awkward - most charities publish, at least, annual reports giving this info and it's readily accessible. Do the NGA? And if not, why not?

Nodin

Jawgap wrote: »

.....and that's where the wheels come off....

...for you.

Jawgap

Nodin wrote: »

...for you.

Yep......and for most civil minded people.