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Is my broker liable?

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  • 18-04-2014 8:33am
    #1
    larry obrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭


    Caught up in the Satanta insurance crap. Paid €600 for insurance through a broker in January so have 8 months left. I reckon my broker is liable for the refund as I paid my money to him and therefore my contract is with him???? Reckon there will be a row over this!!


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    #2
    dricko_lim
    Registered Users Posts: 307 ✭✭dricko_lim


    larry obrien wrote: »
    Caught up in the Satanta insurance crap. Paid €600 for insurance through a broker in January so have 8 months left. I reckon my broker is liable for the refund as I paid my money to him and therefore my contract is with him???? Reckon there will be a row over this!!

    Your contract is with setanta, the policy form you signed would be a setanta one. You'll find the brokers terms of business will have them covered


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    #3
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Your broker does not have your money, Setanta does.
    Your contract is with Setanta.
    Your broker would not have known Setanta were closing.

    While your broker may have recommended Setanta to you (on price maybe?) it was YOU who chose to go with Setanta.

    Ring Setanta on Tuesday to see if you are still covered/are you due your money back.


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    #4
    larry obrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭larry obrien


    dricko_lim wrote: »
    Your contract is with setanta, the policy form you signed would be a setanta one. You'll find the brokers terms of business will have them covered

    Are the terms and conditions valid in law? I didnt sign to the terms and conditions of the broker, just paid the money. Is he not covered by his own scheme, like travel agents are? What a joke this is. Bank holiday weekend and car stuck in the drive


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    #5
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    larry obrien wrote: »
    Are the terms and conditions valid in law? I didnt sign to the terms and conditions of the broker, just paid the money. Is he not covered by his own scheme, like travel agents are? What a joke this is. Bank holiday weekend and car stuck in the drive

    Yes a complete joke. But why are you obesessing with the broker and not the insurance company.

    I believe the scheme you are referring to with the travel agents is for when the travel agent goes bust? This is different, the broker has not gone bust, the insurance company has.


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    #6
    Mycroft H
    Registered Users Posts: 9,313 ✭✭✭Mycroft H


    amdublin wrote: »
    Yes a complete joke. But why are you obesessing with the broker and not the insurance company.

    I believe the scheme you are referring to with the travel agents is for when the travel agent goes bust? This is different, the broker has not gone bust, the insurance company has.

    Because the chances of getting a refund of setanta at this stage are diddley squat.

    Surely the broker has to have some sort if liability here; he sold the product.


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    #7
    Agent_99
    Registered Users Posts: 918 ✭✭✭Agent_99


    larry obrien wrote: »
    Are the terms and conditions valid in law? I didnt sign to the terms and conditions of the broker, just paid the money. Is he not covered by his own scheme, like travel agents are? What a joke this is. Bank holiday weekend and car stuck in the drive

    Is your Broker not open today so you can get cover for your car? Ours stayed open late last night to arrange alt cover and are opening today as well to get in contact with any outstanding customers.

    Or go online and arrange new cover yourself.


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    #8
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    The broker acted in good faith,
    You agreed to the insurance company's Terms & Conditions so your contract is with them, if for example you previously had to make a claim you would have contacted the insurance company....not your broker.


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    #9
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Mycroft H wrote: »
    Because the chances of getting a refund of setanta at this stage are diddley squat.

    Surely the broker has to have some sort if liability here; he sold the product.

    Liable for what/liable how? Is he supposed to be divinely inspired about insurance companies that might go out of business?

    He acted in good faith.

    The broker is not responsible for an insurance company going broke. He does not have your money.

    Get on to Setanta first thing Tuesday morning.


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    #10
    bagofweasels
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭bagofweasels


    amdublin wrote: »
    Your broker would not have known Setanta were closing

    Possibly not relevant, maybe we were lucky to have a clued in broker. Our van insurance was up for renewal in March. We'd been with Setanta for a few years before. At the end of February our broker advised us that they (not entirely sure if 'they' meant the broker or Setanta) were not underwriting new or renewal policies. We went with a different insurer.


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    #11
    skelligs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭skelligs


    bagofweasels wrote: »
    Possibly not relevant, maybe we were lucky to have a clued in broker. Our van insurance was up for renewal in March. We'd been with Setanta for a few years before. At the end of February our broker advised us that they (not entirely sure if 'they' meant the broker or Setanta) were not underwriting new or renewal policies. We went with a different insurer.

    setanta announced in january (jan 26th) that they were not writing any new insurance and would gradually wind down the business, so no new policies were written since january 26th for anyone

    yesterday, they obviously realised that there was not enough money for an orderly wind down and called in liquidators. The reports don't suggest that there is no money, just not enough to fulfill all claims they would normally expect. Website says cover is still in force, but full payout can;t be guaranteed if a claim arises.



    as for the eejit saying he will drive with no insurance, well, there's always one!


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    #12
    bagofweasels
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭bagofweasels


    skelligs wrote: »
    setanta announced in january that they were not writing any new insurance and would gradually wind down the business, so no new policies were written since january for anyone

    yesterday, they obviously realised that there was not enough money for an orderly wind down and called in liquidators.

    Didn't know that - I guess we were just lucky with the way our renewal date fell.


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    #13
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Just musing (and hoping)...

    Suppose somebody chose to drive uninsured for a period of months until he has somehow unilaterally put the world to rights. What happens when he then seeks insurance? Has he blown away his NCB?


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    #14
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?


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    #15
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #16
    larry obrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭larry obrien


    Oryx wrote: »
    Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?

    My point entirely. Why should I go after a hopeless chase to Setanta when seeking a refund from the broker is the easiest option. What does the law state?


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    #17
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Oryx wrote: »
    Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?
    Insurance is not an ordinary retail product. A broker is not a retailer, but an agent. An agent acts on behalf of another person, and can make bind that other person to a contract.

    So when I purchase my insurance with the aid of a broker, the broker is arranging a contract of insurance between me and the insurance company.


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    #18
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Oryx wrote: »
    Why is this treated differently to normal retail consumer law, where the contract for a purchase lies with the retailer? How does a brokers business model differ?

    A broker is not a retailer. (s)he is an intermediary. You are buying the "product" from the insurance company.


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    #19
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    larry obrien wrote: »
    My point entirely. Why should I go after a hopeless chase to Setanta when seeking a refund from the broker is the easiest option. What does the law state?

    It's not easiest if it is wrong.


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    #20
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I am not OK with everyone being out of pocket but I don't see why the customers of Setanta should have to pickup the tab, the Government is responsible for this by failing to regulate.

    But they have regulated by stopping them trading? What else can they do. There is only so much a regulator can do - they are not checking on financial services companies on a day to day basis. The onus is on you to check out who you are dealing with.


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    #21
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    Five Lamps wrote: »
    But they have regulated by stopping them trading? What else can they do. There is only so much a regulator can do - they are not checking on financial services companies on a day to day basis. The onus is on you to check out who you are dealing with.
    Unfortunately most people trust their broker to do that for them.


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    #22
    larry obrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭larry obrien


    Ok, so I call a broker. I dont give damn what Insurance company I use, his job is to find the best product for my needs. He gives me a quote, which includes his commision from the insurance company. His commision is not disclosed to me and I hand my money in full to him. Regardless of some small print on his invoice, surely he is employed indirectly by Setanta and therefore would have some liability?


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    #23
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,495 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    larry obrien wrote: »
    Ok, so I call a broker. I dont give damn what Insurance company I use, his job is to find the best product for my needs. He gives me a quote, which includes his commision from the insurance company. His commision is not disclosed to me and I hand my money in full to him. Regardless of some small print on his invoice, surely he is employed indirectly by Setanta and therefore would have some liability?

    But you agree to the insurance company's Terms & Conditions, not the brokers.

    In addition any information you supply goes to the broker and that actually insurance is provided by the insurance company....not the broker.

    The commission is paid to the broker for a service and that service is merely to find a cheap insurance quote, nothing stopping you doing this yourself....only that your too lazy to do the leg work.

    If you don't like the idea of a broker, then simply don't use one


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    #24
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    larry obrien wrote: »
    Ok, so I call a broker. I dont give damn what Insurance company I use, his job is to find the best product for my needs. He gives me a quote, which includes his commision from the insurance company. His commision is not disclosed to me and I hand my money in full to him. Regardless of some small print on his invoice, surely he is employed indirectly by Setanta and therefore would have some liability?

    You've contradicted yourself there.

    Anyway, the broker is acting on YOUR behalf, not the insurers. If you check your paperwork, you will find that you have been charged a brokerage fee for the service he has undertaken for YOU. The insurer pays a commission to the broker for introducing you as a client to their company. Your contract is with the insurer


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    #25
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Setanta were not regulated by Irish authorities, but instead by the Maltese regulator. Under EU law, they were allowed trade here (which they did exclusively to the best of my knowledge).


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    #26
    BazzaDP
    Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭BazzaDP


    dudara wrote: »
    Setanta were not regulated by Irish authorities, but instead by the Maltese regulator. Under EU law, they were allowed trade here (which they did exclusively to the best of my knowledge).

    Not sure that's true. From the bottom of their web page:

    "Setanta Insurance Company Limited is authorised by the Malta Financial Services Authority in Malta and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. Company Registration No. 41670"


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    #27
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    BazzaDP wrote: »
    Not sure that's true. From the bottom of their web page:

    "Setanta Insurance Company Limited is authorised by the Malta Financial Services Authority in Malta and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. Company Registration No. 41670"

    Yes, but as they say the devil is in the detail! The level of supervision is much more limited when the company is authorized outside the state.


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    #28
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Being covered by an insolvent company is about as useful as a chocolate teapot! If anything goes wrong, you are still liable for any damaged caused to the full extent of your assets, if the insurer can not pay. The whole purpose of taking out insurance was to limit your liability to the premium - so a total fail.


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    #29
    BuffyBot
    Registered Users Posts: 24,924 ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    Folks. I've just had to clean an awful lot of idiocy from this thread. Remember, report a problematic post, don't reply to it.


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    #30
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    BazzaDP wrote: »
    Not sure that's true. From the bottom of their web page:

    "Setanta Insurance Company Limited is authorised by the Malta Financial Services Authority in Malta and is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland for conduct of business rules. Company Registration No. 41670"

    They are only regulated for conduct in Ireland i.e. how they behave and market themselves. The Maltese authorities are the primary regulator.


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    #31
    Mo60
    Closed Accounts Posts: 485 ✭✭Mo60


    skelligs wrote: »
    setanta announced in january (jan 26th) that they were not writing any new insurance and would gradually wind down the business, so no new policies were written since january 26th for anyone


    Setanta were still renewing policies after this date. I renewed a policy at the beginning of last month.

    On another point, if payment was made with a bank debit card, could a claim be made for a refund?


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