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Is my broker liable?

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24

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    #32
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    This came up somewhere else but surely a broker should have taken some recognisance of Setanta's (or any other insurer they might recommend) likely claims paying abilities?


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    #33
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    This came up somewhere else but surely a broker should have taken some recognisance of Setanta's (or any other insurer they might recommend) likely claims paying abilities?

    And how would you expect him to figure that one out? Brokers have no more access to company internals that you or I, so apart from checking that the insurer is properly regulated there is nothing more that can be done.


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    #34
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    And how would you expect him to figure that one out? Brokers have no more access to company internals that you or I, so apart from checking that the insurer is properly regulated there is nothing more that can be done.

    I work in the insurance sector and Brokers should have a resonable level of knowledge concernings insurers they recommend to their clients.

    The basis of recommendation should include an analysis of claims paying ability.


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    #35
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #36
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    The basis of recommendation should include an analysis of claims paying ability.

    And exactly where would you find this data? This would be highly sensitive data and I would be very interested in where you'd expect average Joe Broker to get his hands on it????


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    #37
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    And exactly where would you find this data? This would be highly sensitive data and I would be very interested in where you'd expect average Joe Broker to get his hands on it????

    In my experience that sort of information is actually actively used by insurers.

    Credit ratings and accounts are easily accessible for insurers.


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    #38
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    In my experience that sort of information is actually actively used by insurers.

    Credit ratings and accounts are easily accessible for insurers.

    And for brokers????


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    #39
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    oldyouth wrote: »
    And for brokers????

    Brokers have plenty of access to the financial information of their product suppliers.


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    #40
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Brokers have plenty of access to the financial information of their product suppliers.

    No they don't.

    If they did, then yes why would they place business with that company.

    They don't.


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    #41
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #42
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    amdublin wrote: »
    No they don't.

    If they did, then yes why would they place business with that company.

    They don't.

    Sorry but they do. I work in the business and that sort of data is readily accessible.

    I won't post anything financially sensitive here, but even for a consumers without specialist access....

    http://www.irishlifegroup.ie/financi...t-ratings.aspx

    Took 10 seconds to find. Just an example.


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    #43
    amdublin
    Registered Users Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    That link doesn't work for me.


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    #44
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Sorry but they do. I work in the business and that sort of data is readily accessible.

    I won't post anything financially sensitive here, but even for a consumers without specialist access....

    http://www.irishlifegroup.ie/financi...t-ratings.aspx

    Took 10 seconds to find. Just an example.

    Link doesn't work for me either. As an exercise, will you post up the recent financials for any 3 general insurers?


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    #45
    peteb2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    Sorry but they do. I work in the business and that sort of data is readily accessible..

    Whats "the business"?


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    #46
    downonthefarm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,308 ✭✭✭downonthefarm


    The best you can expect is to be put on a list of creditors.
    Maybe you will get some or all of it back down the line
    AFAIK the broker has no liability


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    #47
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #48
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Better than this, the broker won 2 commissions this year !
    The first one selling you the Setanta , and because Setanta got broke and you need an insurance for your car, you'll get a second one ! Bingo !

    I was talking with my broker today, and the old boss was asking me
    " Are you here for Setanta ? That's tragic, no ? "

    For who ???

    The brokers/others insurance companies are selling massive amounts of contracts these days, just imagine, 75.000 new contracts in a week !
    Without loosing nothing themselves ...

    Yes, tragic !... what a joke...


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    #49
    oldyouth
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,754 ✭✭✭oldyouth


    bertie 56 wrote: »
    The brokers/others insurance companies are selling massive amounts of contracts these days, just imagine, 75.000 new contracts in a week !
    Without loosing nothing themselves ...

    Yes, tragic !... what a joke...

    From a brokers point of view, the average take on a policy would be €40. So 75,000 x €40 = €3m, which is a lot of money. However if you consider that there are over 500 member brokers of the Irish Brokers Association. That works out at an average of €6k a firm.

    Nearly every broker has staff working overtime to cater for the clients that need new policies, so trust me, they too wish this had never happened


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    #50
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,280 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    I work in the insurance sector and Brokers should have a resonable level of knowledge concernings insurers they recommend to their clients.

    The basis of recommendation should include an analysis of claims paying ability.

    You have now made the same statement twice without providing any basis for it other that here say.... Which is useless when it comes to holding a broker or anyone else for that matter responsible.

    I would be very interested in hearing of any insurers that provide factual data of this type to brokers or anyone else for that matter. It is very sensitive data and the provision of such data would most likely contravene the DPA to begin with.


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    #51
    3DataModem
    Registered Users Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    This came up somewhere else but surely a broker should have taken some recognisance of Setanta's (or any other insurer they might recommend) likely claims paying abilities?

    Yes, in theory a chargeback should be possible for "non delivery of service"


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    #52
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    peteb2 wrote: »
    Whats "the business"?

    Insurance/financial services.


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    #53
    peteb2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    So obviously you have access to your own companies financials. And that is probably about it. Beyond what is in the public realm.


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    #54
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    oldyouth wrote: »
    Link doesn't work for me either. As an exercise, will you post up the recent financials for any 3 general insurers?

    No. You can find them yourself very easily. Regarding the broken link google "Irish Life credit rating". Similar information is readily available for all the major players.

    Now this thread is in danger of turning into a bit of an amateur witch hunt (I suspect by people with vested interests) so 2 final thoughts:-

    1/. I have in my hand a recent personal motor renewal - one of the "reasons why" is choice of insurer/product. I cannot see how that couldn't include a view on the credit worthiness or claims paying ability of the insurer.

    2/. The following is from the Broker only area of a leading insurer. They use this, and encourage their brokers to use it, as a reason why to do business with them instead of their competitors:-

    "xxxxxxxxx in Ireland operates as a branch of our UK parent company. This means that any policies taken out since 1 December 2001 are covered by the UK’s Financial Services Compensation Scheme (FSCS) in the event that xxxxxxxxx is in default. So if your clients invest in a xxxxxxxx policy, 90% of the claim is covered, without any upper limit. There is no equivalent Irish compensation scheme."

    Name of insurer removed due to potential commercial sensitivities.


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    #55
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    peteb2 wrote: »
    So obviously you have access to your own companies financials. And that is probably about it. Beyond what is in the public realm.

    I've no idea what you're on about.

    We're talking about brokers here, and the advice they gave regarding entrusting clients premiums and potential claims with Setanta.


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    #56
    Groundsource
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭Groundsource


    larry obrien wrote: »
    Caught up in the Satanta insurance crap. Paid €600 for insurance through a broker in January so have 8 months left. I reckon my broker is liable for the refund as I paid my money to him and therefore my contract is with him???? Reckon there will be a row over this!!
    interesting article, http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/eu-to-probe-collapse-of-setanta-insurance-30216687.html especially the comment that
    "The insurer had been winding down its business here since the start of the year, when it had 100,000 policyholders." Broker should have been aware of this pending collaspe.


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    #57
    peteb2
    Registered Users Posts: 1,813 ✭✭✭peteb2


    So you think that brokers have access to insurance companies financials beyond what would be show in the annual accounts? And that analysis of insurance companies should be made on an ongoing basis Henry Ford III?

    Your second statement relates to an assurance company where their capacity to pay claims would be completely different to that of a motor insurer.


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    #58
    BazzaDP
    Registered Users Posts: 69 ✭✭BazzaDP


    Does seem to me that brokers should have more knowledge of the industry than their customers. Now I'm not saying they'd know anything more than was publically available, just that they should be aware of what's going on.

    Now is that enough information to make them "liable"?

    That's the interesting question. For a start I certainly think they'd have clauses in the T&Cs to absolve them of this, though that's not always enough to completely remove liability. If a broker recommended Santanta AFTER January I'd argue they should have been aware of this "winding down" and so should have been wary of recommending them, and in my completely personal opinion, it may be worth pursuing this with them.

    January sign ups would be a tougher argument as you'd have to prove that the broker should have known about this at the exact time, thought there was considerable risk and then recommended anyway.


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    #59
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    peteb2 wrote: »
    So you think that brokers have access to insurance companies financials beyond what would be show in the annual accounts? And that analysis of insurance companies should be made on an ongoing basis Henry Ford III?

    Your second statement relates to an assurance company where their capacity to pay claims would be completely different to that of a motor insurer.

    Yes I do. Credit ratings for example are easily accessed.

    I know who it relates to thanks. The basis for a brokers recommendation is identical however, and so is the legislation. Some insurers are composite - Aviva for example.

    Here's a load of info on them:-

    http://www.aviva.com/investor-relations/

    What's your point on all this?


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    #60
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #61
    Henry Ford III
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,711 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Mine is that they should have had more cop on and given better advice than to trust their premiums and potential claims to Setanta.


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