Frozen Cod sold as fresh

niallam

If you thought that you were buying Icelandic or Norwegian cod that is frozen and being then sold as fresh would it bother you? The "Produced in Ireland" label they have is far too similar to their "Product of Ireland" label for most people to distinguish what is and isn't Irish produce.

Not sure if many people know or realise what they're buying when they buy "fresh" prepacked fish in the multiples. There is a reason why they can manage to have "fresh" fish all year and at the same price point.....

Quality Fresh Fish -



Additional Information -
"Frozen at Sea"



How a similar frozen at sea pack looks before it makes it into the prepack......

REXER

Is that you Mr Tesco?

biko

Unfortunately companies water down the meaning of words until "quality fresh fish" just means "fish" and sometimes barely even that.

niallam

REXER wrote: »

Is that you Mr Tesco?

Tesco fresh cod is labeled as Scottish and "product may have been previously frozen"
So does that mean they actually don't know where it's coming from and that it was frozen?

duploelabs

All seabass legally sold in ireland is previously frozen, as is tuna, snapper.....the list goes on

rubadub

Does that packet say the word "fresh" on it? I only see it on the fridge.

Is "fresh" a protected/legal term? or is it just useless marketing speak like quality/premium?

Most chippers "fresh cod" would be frozen. I have also gotten semi frozen chicken fillets in a well known butchers in stillorgan.

niallam

duploelabs wrote: »

All seabass legally sold in ireland is previously frozen, as is tuna, snapper.....the list goes on

Sea bass isn't frozen, it's farmed in Greece or Turkey, transported by road to Boulogne Sur Mer in France and comes to Ireland through the UK
Will bass is also available through France.
Sashimi grade tuna is the only one that's been frozen previously.
red snapper is air freighted from Bangladesh or similar weekly to France.

niallam

rubadub wrote: »

Does that packet say the word "fresh" on it? I only see it on the fridge.

Is "fresh" a protected/legal term? or is it just useless marketing speak like quality/premium?

Most chippers "fresh cod" would be frozen. I have also gotten semi frozen chicken fillets in a well known butchers in stillorgan.

Receipt from lidl says "Fresh Cod", guess they're selling it freshly thawed from a 9kg box from Norway.
Chippers use the exact same cod.

The chicken breasts are probably from South America or East of India so frozen before transport to Europe.

rubadub

niallam wrote: »

Receipt from lidl says "Fresh Cod", guess they're selling it freshly thawed from a 9kg box from Norway.

I wouldn't pay much attention to receipts or signs on the freezer, I see some really odd descriptions on my receipts. I am still wondering if "fresh" is just a marketing term which could be applied to anything.

I reckon the chicken breasts in the butchers were Irish and just frozen at the end of the day, just barely semi-freezing them.

Atlantic Dawn

Tesco Alaskan Salmon comes in from China.

The Hill Billy

I have removed "Lidl" from the thread title & as OP has already acknowledged that this is a widespread practice & therefore it is unfair to single out a specific retailer in the thread title.

tHB

Jawgap

A lot of 'fresh' fish is previously frozen.

Some (tuna, mackerel, herring, salmon) are frozen for reasons of safety - to kill potential parasites.

For others (cod, whiting, haddock etc) it's cost. Vessels need to stay out for a long time to gather in a decent catch to make the trip worthwhile - steaming to and from the fishing grounds is wasted time, effort and diesel.

Plus, a lot of fish migrate and move so the concept of an Irish cod is a bit ridiculous.

I'd buy the InisMara product photographed - it's MSC certified and got an Irish approval no. (Keohane's in Kinsale) - I'd rather have a fish from a sustainable non-Irish fishery marketed by an Irish company, than a fish from an unsustainably fished fishing ground, even if it was marketed by an Irish company.......

rubadub

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0434.html
can only find this about meat, I don't think fish falls under "meat"

Fresh meat which has undergone a freezing process shall bear an indication of the month and year in which it was frozen.

In the US
http://www.fishnavy.com/image/fresh-or-frozen/

The FDA defines the word fresh in 21 CFR § 101.95 as “food is in its raw state and has not been frozen or subjected to any form of thermal processing or any other form of preservation.” - See more at: http://www.fishnavy.com/image/fresh-or-frozen/#sthash.ISqBQtxU.dpuf

Jawgap

rubadub wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/si/0434.html
can only find this about meat, I don't think fish falls under "meat"




In the US
http://www.fishnavy.com/image/fresh-or-frozen/

They have recently brought in EU legislation requiring the inclusion of a 'previously frozen' declaration on fish - it becomes mandatory in December this year (I think).

And you're right, fish, despite being a 'food of animal' origin is not regarded as meat, which is usually defined to mean beef, lamb, pork, rabbit etc.....

mikom

The OP has made me doubt the prince of bel air's credentials.

niallam

Jawgap wrote: »

A lot of 'fresh' fish is previously frozen.

Some (tuna, mackerel, herring, salmon) are frozen for reasons of safety - to kill potential parasites.

For others (cod, whiting, haddock etc) it's cost. Vessels need to stay out for a long time to gather in a decent catch to make the trip worthwhile - steaming to and from the fishing grounds is wasted time, effort and diesel.

Plus, a lot of fish migrate and move so the concept of an Irish cod is a bit ridiculous.

I'd buy the InisMara product photographed - it's MSC certified and got an Irish approval no. (Keohane's in Kinsale) - I'd rather have a fish from a sustainable non-Irish fishery marketed by an Irish company, than a fish from an unsustainably fished fishing ground, even if it was marketed by an Irish company.......

Tuna is frozen once only for a sushi grade tuna as it will be eaten raw, same for salmon.
Your thoughts on migrating fish is way off, there are fresh fish landings all over the country every day and a thing called Responsible Irish Fish which promotes Irish sustainable fishing. Quotas are in place to ensure all fishing is sustainable.
Unless people continue to by black (illegal) fish out of the back of vans.
The factory boats that process the frozen at sea fish do more harm to fish stocks than anything else.

If people want frozen Norwegian or Icelandic cod over fresh Irish produce then it's their own choice but don't be fooled into it.
Irish Cod is landed by an Irish registered boat and processed in Ireland, not just thawed and packed in Ireland and passed off as Fresh Fish by marketing and advertising.

Jawgap

niallam wrote: »

Tuna is frozen once only for a sushi grade tuna as it will be eaten raw, same for salmon.
Your thoughts on migrating fish is way off, there are fresh fish landings all over the country every day and a thing called Responsible Irish Fish which promotes Irish sustainable fishing. Quotas are in place to ensure all fishing is sustainable.
Unless people continue to by black (illegal) fish out of the back of vans.
The factory boats that process the frozen at sea fish do more harm to fish stocks than anything else.

If people want frozen Norwegian or Icelandic cod over fresh Irish produce then it's their own choice but don't be fooled into it.
Irish Cod is landed by an Irish registered boat and processed in Ireland, not just thawed and packed in Ireland and passed off as Fresh Fish by marketing and advertising.

There is no such thing as 'sushi grade' tuna or other fish. It is, at best, a trade term with no recogniseable standards.

Salmon must by law (Regulation (EC) No 853/2004) be frozen to -20 for 24 hours before it is sold, so must tuna if it is to be used in raw or near raw products.

Here's a photo of graded frozen tuna I shot in Tsukiji just before the tuna auction started....



RIF doesn't promote sustainable fishing - it's a branding of BIM's EMS which promotes practice on board vessels not the sustainable exploitation of fisheries. MSC focuses on the fishery and there's no comparison between RIF and it (does admittance to RIF even require and audit and certification process?).

Just because an Irish owned vessel lands a fish into a port doesn't make it an Irish fish - a point well recognised by the legislation in this area, given the legislation on the labelling of fresh fish requires only the inclusion of the FAO 'catch areas' (one of the Major Fishing Areas) on the label rather than any country reference.

For aquaculture fish, given they are raised and slaughtered within a country the country of origin must be listed, and the same for freshwater fish caught in inland waters.

Quotas are a joke - the outcome of political horse-trading once the science has been conveniently parked. They have little relevance to concepts such as sustainable economic effort.

As for IUU fish being sold out of the back of vans going around housing estates, that's something of a myth, and even if it was happening it's impact is minimal.

To be honest, I want quality, sustainably sourced fish - I'm less concerned about whether it's landed by an Irish vessel or not, than it has come through a 'proper' certification scheme (something accredited, not RIF) such as BIM Seafood Stewardship Programme or MSC.

And you can slag off the Norwegians and the Icelandics all you want but they provide quality fish. interestingly "Icelandic Cod" recently became the first fishery to receive certification to the new FAO/ISO based "Responsible Fisheries Management Certification Program" - my question is why can't Irish fishermen organise themselves to get these kind of laurels before everyone else - especially as it is such an export led sector, it can't help but benefit from such an accreditation.

niallam

Jawgap wrote: »

Salmon must by law (Regulation (EC) No 853/2004) be frozen to -20 for 24 hours before it is sold, so must tuna if it is to be used in raw



To be honest, I want quality

Don't you mean smoked salmon?
If you think all salmon is frozen as well before being sold your dreaming.

So you want quality and your happy with frozen at sea cod and you think it's good quality?

You seem to want to belittle RIF, it's not the best I agree but it's the only system of its type we have in Ireland. It's a step in the right direction if nothing else.

From RIF website - participating vessels and crews employ various conservation measures that are recognised as contributing to sustainability. Examples are using fishing gear that goes above legal requirements which helps to retain larger fish while allowing undersized fish to escape
So they do nothing for sustainability?

As for tuna, "sushi grade" is a term and means it's safe to eat raw which means it has to be frozen at -20 for 7 days or flash frozen to -35 for 15 hours. Would also need a clear histamine test.
A freshly caught tuna wouldn't be sushi grade.

Jawgap

niallam wrote: »

Don't you mean smoked salmon?
If you think all salmon is frozen as well before being sold your dreaming.

Not all salmon, farmed salmon doesn't have to be frozen.

niallam wrote: »

So you want quality and your happy with frozen at sea cod and you think it's good quality?

I'd rather have a properly handled piece of IQF cod than a poorly handled, badly iced piece of fresh cod. Frozen does not mean poor quality any more than fresh means good quality.

niallam wrote: »

You seem to want to belittle RIF, it's not the best I agree but it's the only system of its type we have in Ireland. It's a step in the right direction if nothing else.

From RIF website - participating vessels and crews employ various conservation measures that are recognised as contributing to sustainability. Examples are using fishing gear that goes above legal requirements which helps to retain larger fish while allowing undersized fish to escape
So they do nothing for sustainability?

Not all, RIF is a step in the right direction but it's not MSC, nor nothing like it - why can't the fishermen and the co-ops sort themselves out and go for proper certification. One of the bigger MSC certification bodies is based in the State, so it's not like the expertise isn't there.

Or they could go for BIM's own Seafood Stewardship Programme or the aforementioned Responsible Fisheries Management Certification Programme.

RIF is the pass paper - if the industry wants to get serious about giving quality to the consumer they should be doing honours......

niallam wrote: »

As for tuna, "sushi grade" is a term and means it's safe to eat raw which means it has to be frozen at -20 for 7 days or flash frozen to -35 for 15 hours. Would also need a clear histamine test.
A freshly caught tuna wouldn't be sushi grade.

As I said, it's a trade or industry term - there's no statutory backing to it.

The tuna would need a proper (n=9) histamine test done, and a TVN test and wouldn't it be "sushi grade"? I would have thought that straight out of the water it would have a low 'K' value making it very suitable........aside from the potential presence of nematode parasites.

niallam

Jawgap wrote: »

Not all salmon, farmed salmon doesn't have to be frozen.



I'd rather have a properly handled piece of IQF cod than a poorly handled, badly iced piece of fresh cod. Frozen does not mean poor quality any more than fresh means good quality.

There is only farmed and wild salmon, so wild salmon is all frozen???

The thread was never about a comparison with an imaginary piece of badly handled unfrozen fish, it was highlighting how frozen at sea fish is being sold by the multiples as fresh fish and vague "produced in Ireland" labeling leading people to believe it is a product of Ireland.

Jawgap

niallam wrote: »

There is only farmed and wild salmon, so wild salmon is all frozen???

The thread was never about a comparison with an imaginary piece of badly handled unfrozen fish, it was highlighting how frozen at sea fish is being sold by the multiples as fresh fish and vague "produced in Ireland" labeling leading people to believe it is a product of Ireland.

Here's the relevant bit from the Reg....

REQUIREMENTS CONCERNING PARASITES
The following fishery products must be frozen at a temperature of not more than 20 ∞C in all parts of the prod-
uct for not less than 24 hours; this treatment must be applied to the raw product or the finished product:
fishery products to be consumed raw or almost raw;
(b) fishery products from the following species, if they are to undergo a cold smoking process in which the inter-
nal temperature of the fishery product is not more than 60 ∞C:
herring;
(ii) mackerel;
(iii) sprat;
(iv) (wild) Atlantic and Pacific salmon;
and
marinated and/or salted fishery products, if the processing is insufficient to destroy nematode larvae.

Most companies freeze because they don't know what use it is going to be put to when they sell it.

"produced in Ireland" is a valid description if the fishery product, for example a fillet, has undergone a process requiring approval in Ireland. It doesn't necessarily have to be an 'economic transformation' as required under customs law.

I'm all for buying Irish, and even paying a modest premium for buying Irish and local, but that's subject to a minimum quality threshold being met. I'm not looking for cheap but for value for money.

Incidentally, on the RIF website 'Donegal Catch' is featured quite prominently - ever check the approval number on their packaging?

niallam

Jawgap wrote: »

Here's the relevant bit from the Reg....



Most companies freeze because they don't know what use it is going to be put to when they sell it.

"produced in Ireland" is a valid description if the fishery product, for example a fillet, has undergone a process requiring approval in Ireland. It doesn't necessarily have to be an 'economic transformation' as required under customs law.

I'm all for buying Irish, and even paying a modest premium for buying Irish and local, but that's subject to a minimum quality threshold being met. I'm not looking for cheap but for value for money.

Incidentally, on the RIF website 'Donegal Catch' is featured quite prominently - ever check the approval number on their packaging?

So as I said, only fish for cold smoking has to be frozen.

Donegal catch get most of their white fish landed into ballycotton and shipped to Green Isle from there.
Personally I wouldn't eat much processed fish so couldn't comment on quality. If someone started thawing it and selling it as fresh product and people didn't realise it had been previously frozen that would be more the point I'm trying to make.

Jawgap

niallam wrote: »

So as I said, only fish for cold smoking has to be frozen.

Donegal catch get most of their white fish landed into ballycotton and shipped to Green Isle from there.
Personally I wouldn't eat much processed fish so couldn't comment on quality. If someone started thawing it and selling it as fresh product and people didn't realise it had been previously frozen that would be more the point I'm trying to make.

Seriously, have a look at the health marks on the Donegal Catch stuff.

And as I said fresh doesn't mean better quality (plenty of never frozen gas flushed tuna around) - IQF technology has come in leaps and bounds in the last few years.

C.K Dexter Haven

duploelabs wrote: »

All seabass legally sold in ireland is previously frozen, as is tuna, snapper.....the list goes on

Rubbish!

CJhaughey

Jawgap wrote: »

Not all, RIF is a step in the right direction but it's not MSC, nor nothing like it - why can't the fishermen and the co-ops sort themselves out and go for proper certification. One of the bigger MSC certification bodies is based in the State, so it's not like the expertise isn't there.

Or they could go for BIM's own Seafood Stewardship Programme or the aforementioned Responsible Fisheries Management Certification Programme.

RIF is the pass paper - if the industry wants to get serious about giving quality to the consumer they should be doing honours......

.

MSC is already in place for some fisheries here, the problem is that most inshore vessels fish in mixed species fisheries. Single species fisheries are less problematic to certify.
Can you name any mixed species fisheries that have MSC certification currently?
The other issue is cost, basically inshore fisheries aren't profitable enough to allow fishermen start the certification process, it costs an awful lot of money to get certified and the cost benefit doesn't really stack up.

Jawgap

CJhaughey wrote: »

MSC is already in place for some fisheries here, the problem is that most inshore vessels fish in mixed species fisheries. Single species fisheries are less problematic to certify.
Can you name any mixed species fisheries that have MSC certification currently?
The other issue is cost, basically inshore fisheries aren't profitable enough to allow fishermen start the certification process, it costs an awful lot of money to get certified and the cost benefit doesn't really stack up.

UK Fisheries/DFFU/Doggerbank Northeast Arctic cod, haddock and saithe fishery

Kat1170

niallam wrote: »

Tuna is frozen once only for a sushi grade tuna as it will be eaten raw, same for salmon.
Your thoughts on migrating fish is way off, there are fresh fish landings all over the country every day and a thing called Responsible Irish Fish which promotes Irish sustainable fishing. Quotas are in place to ensure all fishing is sustainable.
Unless people continue to by black (illegal) fish out of the back of vans.
The factory boats that process the frozen at sea fish do more harm to fish stocks than anything else.

If people want frozen Norwegian or Icelandic cod over fresh Irish produce then it's their own choice but don't be fooled into it.
Irish Cod is landed by an Irish registered boat and processed in Ireland, not just thawed and packed in Ireland and passed off as Fresh Fish by marketing and advertising.

You must be joking :eek::eek::eek:

niallam

Kat1170 wrote: »

You must be joking :eek::eek::eek:

Nope, if it was only Irish boats catching what quotas allowed it would mean a sustainable fishery for Ireland. But it's not.
Species without quotas are getting destroyed, Razors for example, ask anyone fishing them in the Irish Sea what fishing is like now compared to 10 years ago. 2 companies in particular are so hungry for money and shipping every razor they can to China.

Kat1170

So you see nothing wrong with dumping dead fish back into the sea because they don't match a boats quota.

niallam

Kat1170 wrote: »

So you see nothing wrong with dumping dead fish back into the sea because they don't match a boats quota.

What an assumption to make
How do you know what i see as right or wrong?
I know Irish boats have been detained by the SFPA for having secret holds, I know "up grading" goes on on almost every trip but what i don't know is how you managed to make the above statement for me???

llilly

This is still going on . Frozen hake from off south south African coast sold as fresh with an Irish flag on packaging from a display with fresh many times and more irish flags than a paddy's day
Irish fishermen are the loosers here . Hake is an aboundant fishery in Ireland so there is no reason to sell south African product other than greed and a disregard for Irish fishermen