Why do you want/ not want children?

While I understand the huge need that many women and men have to become parents going down the adoption road is extremely difficult.
Apart from there being so few babies in Ireland being placed for adoption and the restrictions in place due to the Hague convention, the psychological implications for both child and parent can be huge.

Prospective adoptive parents need to be made aware of this and do everything they can to ensure their child feels a sense of belonging. Adopted people can have many issues around identity and features of rejection.
Nancy Verrier has written extensively on the impact adoption has on the individual and family.

There are no easy fixes when one wants a child so badly but for whatever reason it's not happening for them naturally. It's heartbreaking to hear of those experiences. Wonderful people who long for a baby but who struggle to make it happen. I can only imagine the ache inside.

Gatica

eviltwin wrote: »

Most adopted children are adopted by family members and that's the way it should be.

I wouldn't agree. Just having blood ties to someone doesn't make them more qualified to take care of a child. The main thing for any child is to have a home they can be happy and safe in. If that happens in their own family, all the better, you'll have the extended family support etc.. However, I would think it's worse to be with a disengaged relative than loving adoptive parents.

meeeeh

Gatica wrote: »

I wouldn't agree. Just having blood dies to someone doesn't make them more qualified to take care of a child. The main thing for any child is to have a home they can be happy and safe in. If that happens in their own family, all the better, you'll have the extended family support etc.. However, I would think it's worse to be with a disengaged relative than loving adoptive parents.

I think in Ireland big percentage of adoptions in the family are when kids are not babies and already have a relationship with other family members. I know of a six year old who was adopted by grandparents after mother was killed in a car accident (girl's father wasn't the most reliable). If relatives are vetted and deemed suitable it is a lot less of a shock than assigning kids to strangers.

Milly33

Milly33 wrote: »

I would love to adopt think it is a very loverly thing to do. The only thing is we don't exactly have a house or stability at the moment so probably would not work

While I understand your view I also think it's rather naive. Couples considering adoption should think long and hard. They should think beyond it being "loverly" and beyond their own need to have a child. As I wrote in my previous post it can leave a lasting psychological impact.

Of course it is important to note the word "can".

eviltwin

Gatica wrote: »

I wouldn't agree. Just having blood ties to someone doesn't make them more qualified to take care of a child. The main thing for any child is to have a home they can be happy and safe in. If that happens in their own family, all the better, you'll have the extended family support etc.. However, I would think it's worse to be with a disengaged relative than loving adoptive parents.

I never said it did but in a situation where there is a suitable person within the family who can provide the links to the child's history then in my mind its a no brainer.

Gatica

Since this a thread about wanting/not wanting children, I would've assumed we were talking about general availability of adoption to those wanting children, not corner cases of fostering older children.

meeeeh

Gatica wrote: »

Since this a thread about wanting/not wanting children, I would've assumed we were talking about general availability of adoption to those wanting children, not corner cases of fostering older children.

And Neyite posted how tiny the amount of adopted Irish kids is. I am not trying to be snarky but it is clear there are basically no Irish kids available for adoption so discussion about general availability is pointless.

CathyMoran

A child is not a commodity, another person has to experience a terrible loss for another person to adopt a child.

I have always wanted children to the extent that only dated men who wanted children but when I was younger adoption seemed to be a great idea and I know a lot of adopted people but my views changed with time and very strong safeguards need to be and are in place to protect the child . I am a 9.5 year cancer survivor and I married my college sweetheart spouse 2 weeks post chemo, I had to fight to get fertility preservation which I did and after 6 horrible miscarriages we had a son then a daughter. For me it is the biggest honor in the world to help someone grow up and when I am with my children I am truly happy, it is better than my wildest dreams. I would consider fostering when mine are a bit older - being a mother defines me.

Gatica

CathyMoran wrote: »

A child is not a commodity, another person has to experience a terrible loss for another person to adopt a child.

Absolutely agree, it's not like owning a chihuahua which has become a hollywoodean fashion accessory (not quite right either).
It should be an option though for someone having an unwanted pregnancy to give their child up for adoption to someone who'd want the child, and be able to care for it properly, without it costing someone 35k to do so. Especially since in Ireland having the child is your only option if you're poor and can't afford UK travel.
Adoption of an unwanted child into a loving home is a wonderful thing to do.

Neyite

CathyMoran wrote: »

A child is not a commodity

This. It really is this simple.

I often think that if I became financially solvent that I'd love to open up my home to foster children. Its a a rose-tinted daydream though. In reality, you have to do it because you want to meet the needs of children, not because of an inner need you feel it will fulfil for you.

Fostering often requires skills and wisdom that go beyond being a well intentioned wanna be mum and dad. Some of the children may have had difficulties at home, delayed learning, or any myriad of attachment issues that need careful and gentle handling.

I agree Gatica that giving a child a stable loving home is a wonderful thing to do but most women who have a crisis pregnancy choose other options because they may not want someone tracking them down in 18 years. The flip side of that is that the adopted lose out on knowing their identity, sense of history, or medical history if the mother chooses to remain anonymous and the get rejected all over again as an adult.

One eyed Jack

Neyite wrote: »

This. It really is this simple.

I often think that if I became financially solvent that I'd love to open up my home to foster children. Its a a rose-tinted daydream though. In reality, you have to do it because you want to meet the needs of children, not because of an inner need you feel it will fulfil for you.

Fostering often requires skills and wisdom that go beyond being a well intentioned wanna be mum and dad. Some of the children may have had difficulties at home, delayed learning, or any myriad of attachment issues that need careful and gentle handling.

I agree Gatica that giving a child a stable loving home is a wonderful thing to do but most women who have a crisis pregnancy choose other options because they may not want someone tracking them down in 18 years. The flip side of that is that the adopted lose out on knowing their identity, sense of history, or medical history if the mother chooses to remain anonymous and the get rejected all over again as an adult.

So on point in so many ways! I was trying to think of a way to explain how a friend of mine adopted her teenage foster daughter who she had fostered since the child was very young.

There were numerous difficulties that are unique to foster and adopted children such as some of the issues you mentioned above, and it requires an awful lot more than just the provision of a loving and caring environment for the child or children involved.

CathyMoran

One eyed Jack wrote: »

So on point in so many ways! I was trying to think of a way to explain how a friend of mine adopted her teenage foster daughter who she had fostered since the child was very young.

There were numerous difficulties that are unique to foster and adopted children such as some of the issues you mentioned above, and it requires an awful lot more than just the provision of a loving and caring environment for the child or children involved.

My spouse is adopted so I know more about the issues than most. If we had the room when our two are older I would love to foster as I feel that we both could really help a child. The joy of helping a child reach their full potential is it's own reward.

Faith

It's important to bear in mind that things have changed hugely in the last few decades, with regards to how and why children are put in care or up for adoption.

I work with children, and I'd say that a majority that I see are/have been in the care system, or are adopted from within Canada. I cannot imagine anything harder than fostering a child. Children don't end up in care, in 95% of cases, because their previously loving families have all died suddenly, or because they had a mother who gave their child up for adoption at birth because they couldn't provide a good enough life for them. They end up there because they were born into terrible home situations. Many are born addicted to drugs, have Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder because their mothers drank alcohol during pregnancy, physical abuse is common (and perhaps sexual abuse was a factor), attachment may have been non-existent and often their parents don't have the basic capacities to parent properly.

If you're genuinely interested in fostering or adoption, you need to consider how you would deal with a child who may have issues around:

- Intellectual functioning
- ADHD (and not the "hyper kid in class" kind; actual ADHD)
- Severe defiance and oppositionality
- Aggression
- Inappropriate sexual behaviour
- Severe attachment difficulties
- Poor adaptive life skills
- Criminal behaviour

I'm sure in many case fostering would be hugely rewarding, but it is an incredibly difficult thing to do.

Lavinia

My best friend adopted two children from Ethiopia 7 years ago. She says it is the best decision of her life, and the children are beautiful, growing, happy and shinning really : )
I am so happy for her.
She however first managed to set her career save money and afford to take the best possible care for them. She was 39 at the time. Took about over a year for the process, another 6 months for getting the children from the place where she found them, approval from parents etc., but it worked out very well and she was more than willing to go and do whatever it took.
She never told them she is their mother, and encouraged the kids to ask and know about their parents whatever they wanted. A girl is now 10 years old and the boy is 7 as he was a baby when she found them.
She initially applied for one child, but when she went to that centre in Ethiopia she saw a little girl singing to a baby boy to help him get asleep. She could not separate them since and applied to have a second child also.
It was approved.

Lavinia

Lavinia wrote: »

She never told them she is their mother

So what did she tell them? That would concern me to be honest.

meeeeh

Deleted User wrote: »

So what did she tell them? That would concern me to be honest.

Why do I have the feeling you want to argue about something in this thread? It would be hard to claim she is their mother considering she has different skin color.

Kids are not put up for adoption unless there is some trauma in their life. And yes their adoptive parents have to be responsible and aware of problems that could cause but it is a hell if a better option than some orphanage. You know nothing about the woman who adopted kids but basic information from her friend. It tells us nothing about her parenting skills or relationship she has with kids except that she did something very nice and adopted both siblings not to separate them.

Dolbert

Deleted User wrote: »

So what did she tell them? That would concern me to be honest.

I presume she means that she's been upfront from the start about their adoption? I don't see why that's cause for concern tbh.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Why do I have the feeling you want to argue about something in this thread? It would be hard to claim she is their mother considering she has different skin color.

Kids are not put up for adoption unless there is some trauma in their life. And yes their adoptive parents have to be responsible and aware of problems that could cause but it is a hell if a better option than some orphanage. You know nothing about the woman who adopted kids but basic information from her friend. It tells us nothing about her parenting skills or relationship she has with kids except that she did something very nice and adopted both siblings not to separate them.

I've no idea why you think that. Perhaps it's because I'm posting on something I feel strongly about so have no hesitancy in giving my views.

Maybe I read to much in to the statement. Obviously the children are a different colour. I was imagining different scenarios and how important it is for adopted children to feel like they belong while also knowing that they are adopted. That is a delicate balancing act. If they are growing up with a mother who says she isn't actually their mother then I can see how confusing that might be for them.

This is just my opinion and as always I have an open mind towards others opinions.

Neyite

Dolbert wrote: »

I presume she means that she's been upfront from the start about their adoption? I don't see why that's cause for concern tbh.

That is by far the best way for the child. A playmate of mine was told from about aged 4 that she had another mummy who couldn't look after her and that's why this mummy looks after her. Matter of fact, in simple terms from an early age so no nasty shocks or surprises in her teens, and has always known she would be fully supported if she chose to track down her bio relatives when she was old enough.

I think lying or concealing an adoption only perpetuates the feeling that its something shameful or to be hidden at a cost to the child's sense of identity.

Lavinia

Yes well if I could post their photos here it would take all worries away Im sure
Their parents didn't give them for adoption because they did not love them but because they could not care for them, I presume we all can just imagine how the life in Ethiopia is.
The kids are not siblings, but the girl even so lttle cared about the baby boy as if he was her brother.
So they know the whole story, no surprises and they love her and even call her mom - it is wonderful what ind of life she managed to provide fro them.
She does not make it as she "owns" them, she will be more than happy to reunite them with their parents once in a life when and if they wish.
The girl calls her mother mother and my friend mother number 2, it is all well, she is proud to have two mothers. She speaks Ethiopian English and another language and my friend takes care she does not forget
It is really wonderful to see.

Neyite

Neyite wrote: »

That is by far the best way for the child. A playmate of mine was told from about aged 4 that she had another mummy who couldn't look after her and that's why this mummy looks after her. Matter of fact, in simple terms from an early age so no nasty shocks or surprises in her teens, and has always known she would be fully supported if she chose to track down her bio relatives when she was old enough.

I think lying or concealing an adoption only perpetuates the feeling that its something shameful or to be hidden at a cost to the child's sense of identity.

I absolutely agree with this. It is so important for the child to know they are adopted right from the very beginning. Knowing this doesn't mean that their adoptive parents are not their mam and dad. That was the point I was trying to make above.

CathyMoran

Deleted User wrote: »

I've no idea why you think that. Perhaps it's because I'm posting on something I feel strongly about so have no hesitancy in giving my views.

Maybe I read to much in to the statement. Obviously the children are a different colour. I was imagining different scenarios and how important it is for adopted children to feel like they belong while also knowing that they are adopted. That is a delicate balancing act. If they are growing up with a mother who says she isn't actually their mother then I can see how confusing that might be for them.

This is just my opinion and as always I have an open mind towards others opinions.

I see that with spouse - he was always told that he was adopted and it really hurt him - I know that it was the way that they did in then but in his case it was a disaster for him. The funny thing is that he is so like his amazing late mother (and by that I mean the mother that adopted him).

I still would consider fostering when our two are older and have my eyes fully open to what it means.

Idle Passerby

I've always been ambivalent about having children. No particular urge to procreate . I always assumed if I was in a good relationship with a man who wanted them it would be a consideration but I'm mid 30s now and no sign of anyone showing up that I'd want to go out with so I guess in a few years it will just be off the table if I meet Mr. Perfect no skin off my nose really, I'm sure if this proverbial Mr. Perfect was that hell bent on kids he'd be with someone who wants/ is able to have them!

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

My friend's fiancé is the only one in a family of three who isn't adopted (I think it was that the parents thought they couldn't conceive naturally, adopted two kids and then along he came by surprise several years later, this would have been thirty odd years ago so easier to adopt). I'm really curious about what that dynamic must be like but it seems like it'd be pretty rude to ask. I suppose it's like anything, when it's your family it's just normal, you just get up in the mornings and think 'stupid Dave is hogging the bathroom again' not 'stupid Dave, he's so adopted'

Faith

Jazmine Miniature Hatchet wrote: »

My friend's fiancé is the only one in a family of three who isn't adopted (I think it was that the parents thought they couldn't conceive naturally, adopted two kids and then along he came by surprise several years later, this would have been thirty odd years ago so easier to adopt). I'm really curious about what that dynamic must be like but it seems like it'd be pretty rude to ask. I suppose it's like anything, when it's your family it's just normal, you just get up in the mornings and think 'stupid Dave is hogging the bathroom again' not 'stupid Dave, he's so adopted'

My friend had the opposite experience - only adoptee with two bio siblings. Her parents were told they couldn't have children. While in the process of adopting, they became pregnant with one child and subsequently had another.

I think she found it difficult, mentally. I know she acted out a lot during her teens, and into her early 20s she was extremely careless with her sexual health. But she was driven by an intense desire to have her own children. I hypothesise that that was related to being adopted and maybe feeling like she didn't totally belong -- but I never asked directly so I could be totally imagining that!

sullivlo

Faith wrote: »

My friend had the opposite experience - only adoptee with two bio siblings. Her parents were told they couldn't have children. While in the process of adopting, they became pregnant with one child and subsequently had another.

I think she found it difficult, mentally. I know she acted out a lot during her teens, and into her early 20s she was extremely careless with her sexual health. But she was driven by an intense desire to have her own children. I hypothesise that that was related to being adopted and maybe feeling like she didn't totally belong -- but I never asked directly so I could be totally imagining that!

I feel like we may have a mutual friend!

I'm still on the fence about children. Would I like to have them? Absolutely. Should I have them? The jury is still out. I don't want to bring a child into this world if I can't provide everything that a child needs and deserves - that's not fair. So I guess until I'm ready to make the decision to put somebody else's needs before mine 100% of the time, I don't deserve to be a mother. I'm not currently in the right place for babies, but maybe in a year or two things will change.

Would love kids though. They really are great. I have a 12 yo cousin who is more like a little brother. I loved him from the day he was born, but thought that he'd get on my nerves eventually when he stopped being a cute toddler. But I think I love him even more now because he's developed a little personality for himself. He spends the weekends with us and I genuinely cherish the time I get to spend with him.

CathyMoran

Faith wrote: »

My friend had the opposite experience - only adoptee with two bio siblings. Her parents were told they couldn't have children. While in the process of adopting, they became pregnant with one child and subsequently had another.

I think she found it difficult, mentally. I know she acted out a lot during her teens, and into her early 20s she was extremely careless with her sexual health. But she was driven by an intense desire to have her own children. I hypothesise that that was related to being adopted and maybe feeling like she didn't totally belong -- but I never asked directly so I could be totally imagining that!

My husband is the eldest of 7, he is only adoptee...he gave up his chance of having children to marry me (I had chemo which significantly reduced my chance of having a baby) even though we both wanted them...he is an amazing person...we were so fortunate to have our two in the end.

I know that my desire to be a mother has always been there and I have always been protective, I am not the perfect mother but my children know how much we wanted them and love them.

Spanish Eyes

We do not have children. I never wanted kids myself. Not because I am Cruella De Ville or anything, just never did.

I have an adorable young nephew (and several more too, all grown up now) who has Cerebral Palsy and mild Autism. I adore the bones of him, and he loves me too. How lovely is that? And then when he gets fed up with me he can go home.

Anyway, it's horses for courses. Some have a maternal instinct, some don't.

My friend who has three kids often said to me.... "I could have babies every year, I love them, but when they grow up it's a different story".

And even when they grow up, they are still yours and still a responsibility of sorts.

I could not imagine worrying about kids young or adult for my entire life EVER. It is just too daunting and limiting, depending on your point of view of course.

So am I a selfish egotistical self absorbed woman? Of course not. I have just made a choice in life that absolutely suits me. Never had one regret about that either, ever.

Sometimes I wonder if I am normal. LOL

The Masculinist

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

We do not have children. I never wanted kids myself. Not because I am Cruella De Ville or anything, just never did.

I have an adorable young nephew (and several more too, all grown up now) who has Cerebral Palsy and mild Autism. I adore the bones of him, and he loves me too. How lovely is that? And then when he gets fed up with me he can go home.

Anyway, it's horses for courses. Some have a maternal instinct, some don't.

My friend who has three kids often said to me.... "I could have babies every year, I love them, but when they grow up it's a different story".

And even when they grow up, they are still yours and still a responsibility of sorts.

I could not imagine worrying about kids young or adult for my entire life EVER. It is just too daunting and limiting, depending on your point of view of course.

So am I a selfish egotistical self absorbed woman? Of course not. I have just made a choice in life that absolutely suits me. Never had one regret about that either, ever.

Sometimes I wonder if I am normal. LOL

I suppose, another way of looking at it is if your parents thought this way you wouldn't be writing this post!!

Horses for courses as you say.

Jack B. Badd

The Masculinist wrote: »

I suppose, another way of looking at it is if your parents thought this way you wouldn't be writing this post!!

Horses for courses as you say.

Childfree Bingo: reminding us that judging other people's lives is a repetitive business...

R.D. aka MR.D

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

Childfree Bingo: reminding us that judging other people's lives is a repetitive business...

Maybe they didn't mean to be rude.

I'll just leave this link here to a thread from a few months ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057545087