Why do you want/ not want children?

Neyite

Jerrica wrote: »

I don't like kissing kids either, not because it grosses me out (but your description of it is very funny ) but because I feel like I'm invading someone else's space when I do. I cringe when friends or family say "give aunty Jerrica a kiss goodbye!" because I remember that horrible feeling of being made to do it when I was younger. Likewise I think I'll be very uncomfortable with people I don't know or am not very familiar with kissing my baby. Except me, the poor child will be smothered from day 1 :pac:

I remember that too - awful! I swore I'd never make my child kiss or hug anyone they don't want to. Total invasion of their person IMO. I taught him early to blow kisses instead when they ask for a kiss. Babies are people too!

username123

eviltwin wrote: »

Thats the thing though, how do you know they are unhappy? Have they actually told you they are unhappy?

Yeah, some have, but you don't have to be a mind reader to tell when someone is unhappy, it's obvious!

meeeeh

Lou.m wrote: »

I know some women manage career and motherhood.'t know how. But I don't know how they deal with guilt.

How do the stay at home mothers deal with guilt that they are placing themselves and their children in more financially unsecure position, very dependant on their partner, which can be incredibly tricky if there is also domestic violence? And in case of their partners death or some some of accident are very often too long from labour market to walk easily back into a job? I don't know what is this obsession with thinking that women with children should by default just follow some Catholic ideal of self sacrifice. Stay at home mothers were the single biggest culture shock for me when I moved over here. I know I probably insulted the other half of the forum but for someone who comes from a country where women work in paid employment regardless of their financial or family situation, this kind of thing really is incomprehensible. People should be able to stay at home if it makes sense for them (financially and emotionally) but it should not be hailed as some kind of ideal. I don't think children where parents work are any more damaged, it is probably also less likely they will become long term dole offenders.

Oh and I am not going back to the previous argument, I would just like to say that I am not patronising towards all childFREE people just towards those who go on about cute kittens when they talk about children. I haven't notice anybody saying that they would rather have a dog than parents.

lazygal

username123 wrote: »

Yeah, some have, but you don't have to be a mind reader to tell when someone is unhappy, it's obvious!

But do you know that's because they have children? Maybe there's other things making them unhappy. I had plenty of moments of unhappiness when I was childfree.

username123

lazygal wrote: »

But do you know that's because they have children? Maybe there's other things making them unhappy. I had plenty of moments of unhappiness when I was childfree.

Hi, listen I'm not gonna get into a big debate about this again, see my earlier posts. I am specifically talking about people I know who were bright, happy, outgoing individuals, who then had children and became shadows of themselves. Since they became parents they are stressed, broke, complain constantly about a lack of sleep, support, time, how their marriage is suffering etc.. They complain about parenting, how it's so hard, how they wish they were child free etc...

I'm not sure why, and this is the second time on this thread that this observation of mine has been picked right down to "but how do you know, it could be other things". This is what I see. If I could show you these people you would come to the same conclusion (as the rest of their friends have). You may choose to believe what I say or not as you please but I'm not debating it any further.

Malari

meeeeh wrote: »

Oh and I am not going back to the previous argument, I would just like to say that I am not patronising towards all childFREE people just towards those who go on about cute kittens when they talk about children. I haven't notice anybody saying that they would rather have a dog than parents.

LOL! I have to stop myself comparing my cat to other people's children sometimes, because I know some people get insulted by it. I can't help it though, if they are talking about having to get up in the middle of the night, or what cute little thing their child did then I want to share my stories too!

Das Kitty

Malari wrote: »

LOL! I have to stop myself comparing my cat to other people's children sometimes, because I know some people get insulted by it. I can't help it though, if they are talking about having to get up in the middle of the night, or what cute little thing their child did then I want to share my stories too!

I was the same with my dogs. I'd probably be the same now if I had a dog, even though I have two kids.

It's nothing to do with equating pets to children, it's just that there are some of the same challenges and it's human nature to compare those in conversation.


Just to address the "guilt of a working mother" trope from earlier. For me there is none. My kids (and me, and my husband) deserve the best version of me. I've been the non-earning stay at home mum, and that was not the best me.

lazygal

No guilt about working here either. Both myself and my husband had working parents and there was no downside. I need to work outside the home to be a good parent.

vitani

Malari wrote: »

LOL! I have to stop myself comparing my cat to other people's children sometimes, because I know some people get insulted by it. I can't help it though, if they are talking about having to get up in the middle of the night, or what cute little thing their child did then I want to share my stories too!

Haha! I have great conversations at work with one of my colleagues, where we compare my child to her labrador. I don't take it as an insult at all - I used to have a dog myself and tbh, at times looking after my toddler reminds me of looking after my dog. I have to make sure everything breakable is out of reach, she needs plenty of food, exercise and cuddles, bathtime is as messy and every time I eat something, I get a pair of eyes watching me, looking for scraps. :pac:

eviltwin

I never felt guilty either. I cut back on work because it was too much pressure and I had no time for myself, I was burnt out. Trying to fit my life into evenings and weekends just wasn't for me, I'm not really a nine to five office person. Going part time gives me room to work but yet gives me a personal life as well. I suppose most people who know me probably think I went part time because of the kids but really it was about me

username123

eviltwin wrote: »

I suppose most people who know me probably think I went part time because of the kids but really it was about me

Fair play to you, Id love to do the same!

Malari

Malari wrote: »

LOL! I have to stop myself comparing my cat to other people's children sometimes, because I know some people get insulted by it. I can't help it though, if they are talking about having to get up in the middle of the night, or what cute little thing their child did then I want to share my stories too!

"Look I have the cutest pic of osky isn't he cute LOOK AT IT"

jaja321

Would really like children if possible, I won't let it define me though if I can't. I like kids and love my friends kids, but seriously sometimes the amount on pictures on social media...I log in and its like an onslaught!!

username123

jaja321 wrote: »

Would really like children if possible, I won't let it define me though if I can't. I like kids and love my friends kids, but seriously sometimes the amount on pictures on social media...I log in and its like an onslaught!!

I actually unfollow anyone who over-posts the kids pics. I dont mind seeing the odd pic but Ive no interest in my entire news feed being taken up. Also some people post kid pics that I find gross but they think are funny - so its unfollow for them too!

ivytwine

username123 wrote: »

I actually unfollow anyone who over-posts the kids pics. I dont mind seeing the odd pic but Ive no interest in my entire news feed being taken up. Also some people post kid pics that I find gross but they think are funny - so its unfollow for them too!

Same. Some of my friends have kids, and whereas I don't mind, "Kid's first day at school" I certainly don't appreciate "Kid had the squits all night and bathroom is destroyed".

meeeeh

jaja321 wrote: »

Would really like children if possible, I won't let it define me though if I can't. I like kids and love my friends kids, but seriously sometimes the amount on pictures on social media...I log in and its like an onslaught!!

I am not a great fan of social media anyway. I try to keep that aspect of my life very private. I have a drop box account and my mother and some other relatives are allowed to share certain files but I do not post any pictures on FB or any other public forum. I'm not overly interested in other people's photos (any kind with a few exceptions) and I like to keep certain things private.

As for animals, I have no problem talking about animals, I love our dog and ten years later I still talk about my 'no balls one eyed' cat who is a legend.

jaja321

meeeeh wrote: »

I am not a great fan of social media anyway. I try to keep that aspect of my life very private. I have a drop box account and my mother and some other relatives are allowed to share certain files but I do not post any pictures on FB or any other public forum. I'm not overly interested in other people's photos (any kind with a few exceptions) and I like to keep certain things private.

As for animals, I have no problem talking about animals, I love our dog and ten years later I still talk about my 'no balls one eyed' cat who is a legend.

Good for you, I actually think it's weird to upload all these baby photos. There are kids I've never even met who I feel I know as their parents have uploaded daily updates of their lives. It's weird.

Malari

bluewolf wrote: »

"Look I have the cutest pic of osky isn't he cute LOOK AT IT"

I have a few friends who are not animal fans at all, and I honestly don't think they could even tell me what colour my cat is, so I never show them pics, or even mention my cat really with them.

On the other hand, there are friends I can get locked into a never-ending cycle of pet-pics on the phone when we meet up

sambuka41

In fairness small kids and pet comparison is easy to do. I am just back to London after a visit home, I was telling my dad and brother how I couldn't do the kids thing, after watching my bro clean up after my nephews I declared kids are too much work I'll stick with my cat!

I get home and the cat is so annoyed with me he pisses all over the bed, spent ages washing mattress and covers, my dad thought this was hilarious, he was like hhmmm yeah pets are less work than kids,sure!! :P

I find it funny when people get offended by the child pet comparison, why would it bother a parent how I view my pet or their children? Its back to perspective, even if I view my cat as equal to a child what difference does that make to the child? How is it insulting? For some people its the same instincts that drive their nurturing of a child as with a pet. Each to their own.

IvyTheTerrible

sambuka41 wrote: »

In fairness small kids and pet comparison is easy to do. I am just back to London after a visit home, I was telling my dad and brother how I couldn't do the kids thing, after watching my bro clean up after my nephews I declared kids are too much work I'll stick with my cat!

I get home and the cat is so annoyed with me he pisses all over the bed, spent ages washing mattress and covers, my dad thought this was hilarious, he was like hhmmm yeah pets are less work than kids,sure!! :P

I find it funny when people get offended by the child pet comparison, why would it bother a parent how I view my pet or their children? Its back to perspective, even if I view my cat as equal to a child what difference does that make to the child? How is it insulting? For some people its the same instincts that drive their nurturing of a child as with a pet. Each to their own.

It's funny what bothers people though! I watched the Chimpanzee film with my son recently, and I commented to my mother that the baby chimp reminded me of how my son plays. She went nuts thinking I had CALLED him a chimp. :rolleyes: (didn't help when I said that we're all apes anyway).

meeeeh

sambuka41 wrote: »

I find it funny when people get offended by the child pet comparison, why would it bother a parent how I view my pet or their children? Its back to perspective, even if I view my cat as equal to a child what difference does that make to the child? How is it insulting? For some people its the same instincts that drive their nurturing of a child as with a pet. Each to their own.

It's not the work or whatever, it is when a pet and a child are considered interchangeable, as something with the same emotional involvement. (people who would feel the same for their pets as for their children shouldn't have either.)

Penny Tration

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not the work or whatever, it is when a pet and a child are considered interchangeable, as something with the same emotional involvement. (people who would feel the same for their pets as for their children shouldn't have either.)

It is perfectly possible to love a pet as much as you would love a child. Pets generally make us feel happy when we're down, are good for a cuddle, develop their own little personalities and show us unconditional love.

Saying people who would feel the same for their pets as for their kids shouldn't have either is an insult to a lot of people.

Quite frankly, I love my dog more than I believe I could ever love a child. Lucky I'm not planning to have kids, so.

username123

green_screen wrote: »

It is perfectly possible to love a pet as much as you would love a child. Pets generally make us feel happy when we're down, are good for a cuddle, develop their own little personalities and show us unconditional love.

Saying people who would feel the same for their pets as for their kids shouldn't have either is an insult to a lot of people.

Quite frankly, I love my dog more than I believe I could ever love a child. Lucky I'm not planning to have kids, so.

+1

It's horribly dismissive of other people's feelings to suggest that their love for their pet is in some way inferior to someone else's love for their child. Utter patronising nonsense, we are all different and while I couldn't love a lizard as much as I'd love a cat, I'm sure there is someone out there who could and I don't think their lizard love is any less than my cat love. Similar goes for human versus pet love, no one is more worthy.

meeeeh

I have huge problem with that and it is an general issues not a child vs animal issue. I think a society where an animal life or an animal becomes more important than human life is extremely disturbing. If that is patronising then so be it.

lazygal

There is no way a pet would be near the same level as my child. I had pets growing up, we loved them, but their loss was not the same as the loss of a relative. I'm not dismissing the grief that comes with the loss of a pet. There's just no way an animal comes close to my children in terms of love.

Lucyfur

That's fine that you find it disturbing, meeeeeh. Your opinion, which you are entitled to

I ADORE my animals. Absolutely love them. Anyone who knows me, knows that I want to live with animals 90% of the time :pac:

My son stayed with his Granny last night. When we were going to bed, the 2 cats were asleep on the bed. ''Awwwww lookit how cute they are'' sez us. ''Let them sleep in with us for tonight'' was our bright idea. I was up and down the whole fecking night. Still tho, I can't be cross with their widdle furry faces

meeeeh

Lucyfur wrote: »

My son stayed with his Granny last night. When we were going to bed, the 2 cats were asleep on the bed. ''Awwwww lookit how cute they are'' sez us. ''Let them sleep in with us for tonight'' was our bright idea. I was up and down the whole fecking night. Still tho, I can't be cross with their widdle furry faces

You don't get it. When I was pregnant with the first child our 5 stone dog slept in our bed (long story). When my son was born first thing we did was ship the dog to granny for a month. We were also building a house at the time and it was very clear where our priorities lay. And so it should be. You can love your animals but if you stop caring for a child because you are grieving after your pet died, you will end up in a prison or mental institution, if the situation is reversed you might get a fine.

Lucyfur

meeeeh wrote: »

You don't get it. When I was pregnant with the first child our 5 stone dog slept in our bed (long story). When my son was born first thing we did was ship the dog to granny for a month. We were also building a house at the time and it was very clear where our priorities lay. And so it should be. You can love your animals but if you stop caring for a child because you are grieving after your pet died, you will end up in a prison or mental institution, if the situation is reversed you might get a fine.

Um....where am I not caring for a child??

My dog died 2 months ago. I'm still heartbroken. I will be for a long time. I had her all my adult life. For one week short of 15 years. My son, funnily enough, still got/gets looked after. My son is my reason for being. I'd be dead in a ditch long ago if it wasn't for him. But, I still LOVE animals. Adore them. I could be mental, or multi-talented

ANYWAY. I am moving on from this as I (me, in my opinion) don't think anyone has the right to tell someone how to grief over human, animal or anything in between. Grief is far far far too personal for that.

Bowing out

Addle

I get how (most) parents feel about their children once they are born, that unconditional love that only a parent can understand; but can anybody be certain before their child is born that those feelings will exist?

meeeeh

No you can't. But you do have an idea.

I was never overly interested in biology but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some biological reactions to enable survival of the species. At least at the beginning.

Neyite

Addle wrote: »

I get how (most) parents feel about their children once they are born, that unconditional love that only a parent can understand; but can anybody be certain before their child is born that those feelings will exist?

I think I certainly underestimated my love for my child, and I knew from an early age I wanted children, and also was (and still am!) determined to be a great mother. Even in the early days as a new mum, I loved my baby but I didn't know him very well yet if you know what I mean. As the months have gone by and I get to know a little bit more and more about my child and his personality, it just has multiplied from the days I protectively cradled my as yet non-existent bump.

So, thinking about it on the way home this evening, and this thread, and just there, talked to himself about it, and the best example I can give is this:

If a murderous psychopath broke into the home and tied us all up and told me that I could save one, my partner or my child. That my torture would be to make me watch while he does it, and if I refused to choose he would kill both.
I would not hesitate to tell him to kill my partner. And my partner agrees, he would sacrifice me without hesitation, if it meant our child would escape harm.

I would, literally throw myself under a bus for my child if I had to. That depth of feeling scares me sometimes, i never knew how deep it goes.

sambuka41

meeeeh wrote: »

It's not the work or whatever, it is when a pet and a child are considered interchangeable, as something with the same emotional involvement. (people who would feel the same for their pets as for their children shouldn't have either.)

I have made the choice not to have children, I would consider myself maternal and nurturing so that energy goes into my pets. I know I love my animals as much as I could a child, I have literally run out in front of an on coming car to protect my cat. The instincts are the same in my eyes.

I have also worked in child protection for a number of years and I can tell you that there are some parents out there who should never have had children, the damage they do is unreal, but despite that they would say they love their children, and sadly they mean it.

Love means many a different thing to different people.

username123

sambuka41 wrote: »

Love means many a different thing to different people.

Yes.

You can't quantify any subjective emotion, you've nothing to compare it to, none of us do. For all I know I feel my emotions much less or much more than you, but we'll never know because of the subjective nature of consciousness.

In fact, for all you know I'm telling you very emphatically how much I love my child (or cat) but inside I could be as emotionless as your iPhone. No way of quantifying any of it.

alleystar

As another user said, the fact that a child is "forever" is quite terrifying. It's a scary prospect, being in control of another human being's life. I think the pressure of it would stress me out no end. You can't hand it back, you can't lock yourself away and stay in bed, you have to be there for them. No down days really, not when they're small anyway. PND is a huge fear of mine too, I don't think I would chance having a baby because of that alone.

I still find pregnancy fascinating though and babies are very cute.

Penny Tration

meeeeh wrote: »

I have huge problem with that and it is an general issues not a child vs animal issue. I think a society where an animal life or an animal becomes more important than human life is extremely disturbing. If that is patronising then so be it.

Where did anyone say their pet is more important than their child?

I said I love my pet more than I believe I could love a child. That's mainly down to me never wanting a child. Nobody has even implied that an animal's life is more important than a child's life. I love my kid sister to death. If I had to choose between her or my dog, I'd choose her. I love my dog just as much as I love my little sister. The reason I'd choose her, if I had to choose, is because she has the bigger positive impact on my life.

I don't find your opinions patronising. I do wish you'd stop twisting what people are saying, though.

diveout

I have a family member who loves his cats more than he loves any of us or his own nephews. Cats wont let you down and you know where you stand with them, and I think he just will always love them more than he would love any human.

But I am not the same as he is. So there you go. We are all different and so what if we are? I don't care that he loves his cats more than loves me. Fine.

I think there is a discernment that must be made. I like having a child and I love my child, but I have to say being a mother in mammy republic, as opposed to other cultures, is another story and it comes with very trying days sometimes. So I think whether you want to have kids or not have kids might also have something to do with the culture around you and what it will give and take to you if do become a mother.

meeeeh

sambuka41 wrote: »

I have made the choice not to have children, I would consider myself maternal and nurturing so that energy goes into my pets. I know I love my animals as much as I could a child, I have literally run out in front of an on coming car to protect my cat. The instincts are the same in my eyes.

I have also worked in child protection for a number of years and I can tell you that there are some parents out there who should never have had children, the damage they do is unreal, but despite that they would say they love their children, and sadly they mean it.

Love means many a different thing to different people.

And if you woud die saving your cat the driver would spend a whole life living with guilt (I know someone who had to and it was not pretty). Your cat though would get a new owner and probably forget about you. That was very irresponsible thing to do. You might love your animals but you could also destroy someone's life.

As for second paragraph I absolutely agree.

Addle

Although the question asked is why people want/don't want to have kids, any parents with grown up children care to comment?
What happens if your kids grow up not to like you/are a big disappointment?
Any regrets?

BroodyAllen

I'm due my first baby in December and have two cats and a dog. I'm one of people who always puts pictures of their pets online and talks about their little personalities to people. But as much as I love them, I know there's no way it will be equal to what I'll feel for my baby. It's only a little bean at the moment, and I'd already do anything to make it happy. When s/he arrives, we'll do our best to keep the pets as included as they were before, but it's not going to be the same, and I'm okay with that.

sambuka41

meeeeh wrote: »

And if you woud die saving your cat the driver would spend a whole life living with guilt (I know someone who had to and it was not pretty). Your cat though would get a new owner and probably forget about you. That was very irresponsible thing to do. You might love your animals but you could also destroy someone's life.

I can't be responsible for someone else's reactions or emotions, guilt or happiness, I can only control my own. Expecting me to take on some strangers potential guilt above protecting a creature that I love is nonsensical. And I love my cat, I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree when it comes to the love of an animal.

pwurple

Article in today's indo about the statistic of 1 in 5 women in their 40's being childless.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/mothers-babies/one-in-five-women-still-childless-in-their-40s-30216701.html

The article paints it as a problem, which it may not be, judging by the discussion here. The choice NOT to have children is as valid as the choice to have children.

However, what I have seen happening with my female peers in their 30's is a vague desire to have children at some point, which gets blocked by immature men. For some reason men are culturally encouraged to remain child-like, and child-less for a very long time... Often past their partner's fertility.

I know of women who won't even bring up the subject of children with their boyfriend for fear of "scaring him off". And they are right to worry, I know guys who have bolted for the hills at the meer hint of a family rather than unlimited consequence-free sex.

I guess my very long-winded point is: are we fooling ourselves into thinking we even have this choice.

eviltwin

pwurple wrote: »

Article in today's indo about the statistic of 1 in 5 women in their 40's being childless.
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/mothers-babies/one-in-five-women-still-childless-in-their-40s-30216701.html

The article paints it as a problem, which it may not be, judging by the discussion here. The choice NOT to have children is as valid as the choice to have children.

However, what I have seen happening with my female peers in their 30's is a vague desire to have children at some point, which gets blocked by immature men. For some reason men are culturally encouraged to remain child-like, and child-less for a very long time... Often past their partner's fertility.

I know of women who won't even bring up the subject of children with their boyfriend for fear of "scaring him off". And they are right to worry, I know guys who have bolted for the hills at the meer hint of a family rather than unlimited consequence-free sex.

I guess my very long-winded point is: are we fooling ourselves into thinking we even have this choice.

saw that article today but didn't get around to reading it. talk about sexist, where are the articles on childless men.

lazygal

For some reason the entire fertility burden falls on women, at least in the media. Women can't get themselves pregnant naturally. I would like more focus on why men delay starting a family for a change. I'm sick of the tired old cliches as to why women aren't having children at x age.

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

For some reason the entire fertility burden falls on women, at least in the media. Women can't get themselves pregnant naturally. I would like more focus on why men delay starting a family for a change. I'm sick of the tired old cliches as to why women aren't having children at x age.

I agree. But I also think that women are responsible for the current mentality.

lazygal

Addle wrote: »

I agree. But I also think that women are responsible for the current mentality.

How so?

Addle

lazygal wrote: »

How so?

Mothers spoiling their sons.
Sexual partners appeasing their partners.

Tigger99

I had a dog for 12 years. She died almost 3 years ago. I feel sad about her loss quite regularly. I would have stood in front of whatever threat appeared to save her, even to sacrifice my own life if required, tho it wasn't.

I hope to have children in a few years, I've no doubt that I'd lay my life down for them.

Two very different types of love.I don't understand why either need to be compared?

I suppose like many things in life, some people feel quite affronted when others make a decision to pursue a different way, almost like it's a personal insult to them.

pwurple

eviltwin wrote: »

saw that article today but didn't get around to reading it. talk about sexist, where are the articles on childless men.

That was my first thought too, what is the statistic for men who don't procreate? I guess it is slightly tougher to quantify. It's not always as obvious from records if a man has a child or not. Not named on birth cert etc. Should have been able to give it a reasonable stab, but that's probably not good enough for statisticians.

Malari

There's nothing in that article about choice at all! Crazy.

kylith

pwurple wrote: »

However, what I have seen happening with my female peers in their 30's is a vague desire to have children at some point, which gets blocked by immature men. For some reason men are culturally encouraged to remain child-like, and child-less for a very long time... Often past their partner's fertility.

I know of women who won't even bring up the subject of children with their boyfriend for fear of "scaring him off". And they are right to worry, I know guys who have bolted for the hills at the meer hint of a family rather than unlimited consequence-free sex.

I guess my very long-winded point is: are we fooling ourselves into thinking we even have this choice.

I'm finding this on my mind a lot at the moment. I want to start trying for a family in a few months time. Himself wants children 'at some point' and doesn't seem to understand my rush; he's not ready, he doesn't know when he'll be ready, and he doesn't understand that even though I'm not ready either I don't have the luxury of waiting until I am. AFAICT most of the men I know are the same as him, they act the same now as when I met them 15 years ago in college. It's kind of scary because it seems that all the men in my age group who want to get married and have kids have already done it so that even if I left OH and tried again I'd run into the same problem again. What's really annoying is that I've always been open and upfront about my desire for a family.

Maybe we should start going for men 10 years our senior in the hope that they'll have matured and be ready to settle down.