Overweight Dogs

Vel

Just looking for some general advice on a situation.

A family who live near us have two massively overweight labradors. It upsets me every time I see them. I work so I don't know how often they exercise them but I would probably see them once every two months and they look so uncomfortable, panting, heads down and dragging themselves along.

I would not be willing to approach them to offer any friendly advice as I am sure that it would not be well received. They aren't the most approachable of families!

I am wondering if a group like the DSPCA or the ISPCA would entertain a 'complaint' about them and pop out and pay a visit. I do remember a case in the UK where a dog was seized from an owner for being massively overweight but I don't know whether our laws cover this issue.

I see a lot of overweight labs around and it seems to be accepted as being 'normal' for the breed but these two would be above and beyond the normal fat lab you are likely to see around the place.

We had a lab growing up who was lovely and lean and who we used to joke must have a bit of greyhound in her as a result, but sadly the vast majority of the pet labs I see these day are without doubt overweight.

Un Croissant

If I remember right an overweight Lab came second in Crufts last year. Definitely setting a bad example.

Tranceypoo

Would definitely be worth a call to sound them out, see if they have time/think it's worth calling out and having a chat with them, although with the amount of cruelty around at the moment this might not be a priority, I agree though that so many dogs (not just labs) are overweight, I read on one animal rescue FB page recently that people reporting dogs who were underweight so often were normal weight dogs, but we're so used to seeing overweight/fat dogs that we think normal weight ones are skinny!

I'm really conscious of both my dogs weight, particularly the older lab/staffy mix who has a dodgy leg and a dodgy heart!

Pretzill

What makes you think their owners aren't aware of their own dogs condition? And that they aren't doing something about it? Do you know the dog's age? I remember 2 of our dogs put on weight rapidly at age 12 it coincided with the arrival of a new pup and a vet's pet shop advising a new food - turned out the food was bulked out with maize and our two blew up on it, it was awful - thankfully dietry changes helped and they both slimmed down.

At the time had the ISPCA called to me because a neighbour that I was mistreating them I would have been very put out - I'd rather a kind word from a concerned neighbour with good advice than being painted as a cruel owner! Dogs age, will determine their level of exercise and therefore the level of fuel they need but sometimes dogs can be spoiled - my eldest dog is 15 now he's not a waif but to be honest I'm just so happy he still has a good appetite!

What I'm trying to say is don't be too quick to judge mistreatment in this situation. A simple comment to the dogs owners about their weight may spark a conversation about why they are in this condition -

Vel

Pretzill wrote: »

What makes you think their owners aren't aware of their own dogs condition? And that they aren't doing something about it? Do you know the dog's age? I remember 2 of our dogs put on weight rapidly at age 12 it coincided with the arrival of a new pup and a vet's pet shop advising a new food - turned out the food was bulked out with maize and our two blew up on it, it was awful - thankfully dietry changes helped and they both slimmed down.

They are a mother and daughter. The mother is around 7 and the daughter around 4 - this is a fact, not guess work. I first spotted them approx 3 years ago and they have been the same weight since then. I completely forgot about them to be honest as I rarely see them out but was reminded the other day when I spotted them being walked, hence my post here yesterday! The last time I saw them before the other day was at least a year ago.

At the time had the ISPCA called to me because a neighbour that I was mistreating them I would have been very put out - I'd rather a kind word from a concerned neighbour with good advice than being painted as a cruel owner! Dogs age, will determine their level of exercise and therefore the level of fuel they need but sometimes dogs can be spoiled - my eldest dog is 15 now he's not a waif but to be honest I'm just so happy he still has a good appetite!

As stated these people are not approachable or I would do so. I am not going to go into the reasons why on this board. You might be the kind of person who would welcome a chat about your dogs weight with a neighbour but they certainly aren't unfortunately!

What I'm trying to say is don't be too quick to judge mistreatment in this situation. A simple comment to the dogs owners about their weight may spark a conversation about why they are in this condition

It may very well be the case that both of them have some illness and have been under vet treatment for the past 3 years or it may very well be the case that they are over fed and under exercised. I have ascertained from other neighbours that they are rarely walked, maybe because of illness or maybe because their owners don't bother but apart from that I haven't been able to find out any further information, hence why I posted here looking for advice on what to do.

In a situation where I am not willing to approach them and can't glean any definitive information from other neighbours that might help me to judge the situation better, apart from report them what would you suggest I do? I don't particularly want to report anyone, mainly because I'm pretty sure I'll be fobbed off, so what are my other options in that case? Turn the other way and forget I saw it, like so many people do? I'd genuinely love to hear some other options or from people who have been in a similar position. I can't get them out of my head. They are so so fat and look absolutely miserable when I see them.

Tranceypoo

You know what I really wouldn't mind at all if one of my neighbours reported me for having overweight dogs or some sort of cruelty (once I'd gotten over the shock of anyone round here giving a flying f uck!),because I've absolutely nothing to hide and not doing anything wrong, maybe I just don't realise my dog is fat (they're not) or I'm not supposed to use a choke chain (I don't!) etc etc and if someone in authority educated me to the alternative that would be a good thing. Although I understand some people wouldn't be as 'amenable' as me! I'll just talk to anyone about dogs really!

Pretzill

No I don't think you.should turn the other way I was just saying things aren't always black and white - perhaps the dogs have some disorder that affects their weight - it's a pity their owners aren't approachable because I can't see the authorities doing anything about it.

Maybe I'm just been cynical coloured by the fact that I just had a visit from the dog warden - I said I was concerned about a local dog who's kept outside all night, all weathers the poor thing barking and yelping constantly - the response I got? We aren't concerned with.animal welfare - just the law - it's not illegal to leave your dog outside at night - take some sleeping tablets!!

I dispair.

muddypaws

I'd say its worth a try at reporting them. Would anyone advise caution is it was a severely underweight dog? Obesity is just as much of a health issue for a dog as starvation is.

Pretzill

muddypaws wrote: »

I'd say its worth a try at reporting them. Would anyone advise caution is it was a severely underweight dog? Obesity is just as much of a health issue for a dog as starvation is.

Certainly an obese dog will have many more health problems - and if kept overweight it may shorten its lifespan - but a severely underweight dog may only have days left - particularly as the sign of starvation is a marker for the dog being mistreated.

muddypaws

Pretzill wrote: »

Certainly an obese dog will have many more health problems - and if kept overweight it may shorten its lifespan - but a severely underweight dog may only have days left - particularly as the sign of starvation is a marker for the dog being mistreated.

And you don't think an obese dog is also a marker for a dog being mistreated?

Pretzill

muddypaws wrote: »

And you don't think an obese dog is also a marker for a dog being mistreated?

I didn't say that at all. And neither did I say that the OP shouldn't report their fears. Being starved is not on par with being overfed, though. Some people don't even realise the harm obesity can cause their dogs and don't even see it as mistreatment. In fact it's summed up as the old saying "killed with kindness" - there does need to be more education around caring for our pets too.

A concerned few words, advice and a trip to the vet should begin to tackle an overweight dog - a dog who has been left to starve to death needs to be removed from the situation immeadiately - they aren't the same level of concern in that regard. But yes I think one should always speak out if they feel any animal is in distress.

muddypaws

Pretzill wrote: »

I didn't say that at all. And neither did I say that the OP shouldn't report their fears. Being starved is not on par with being overfed, though. Some people don't even realise the harm obesity can cause their dogs and don't even see it as mistreatment. In fact it's summed up as the old saying "killed with kindness" - there does need to be more education around caring for our pets too.

A concerned few words, advice and a trip to the vet should begin to tackle an overweight dog - a dog who has been left to starve to death needs to be removed from the situation immeadiately - they aren't the same level of concern in that regard. But yes I think one should always speak out if they feel any animal is in distress.

And neither did I say that a dog had been left to starve to death. Starvation does not always lead to death, an animal can live for a long time on a starvation diet, but will be unhealthy, just as they will if overfed and under-exercised.

Pretzill

muddypaws wrote: »

And neither did I say that a dog had been left to starve to death. Starvation does not always lead to death, an animal can live for a long time on a starvation diet, but will be unhealthy, just as they will if overfed and under-exercised.

I really don't know what you're getting at here, I don't think there are many, if any, cases of well meant but uneducated owners underfeeding their dogs and over exercising them. There are many cases of owners overfeeding and under exercising though and this is normally resolved after their dog has had a routine check-up at the vets. It's a balance with nutrition and exercise - certain breeds find it difficult to gain weight too - I have a little guy who hasn't a pick on him, but he is a healthy weight for his size and breed.

Graces7

Pretzill wrote: »

No I don't think you.should turn the other way I was just saying things aren't always black and white - perhaps the dogs have some disorder that affects their weight - it's a pity their owners aren't approachable because I can't see the authorities doing anything about it.

Maybe I'm just been cynical coloured by the fact that I just had a visit from the dog warden - I said I was concerned about a local dog who's kept outside all night, all weathers the poor thing barking and yelping constantly - the response I got? We aren't concerned with.animal welfare - just the law - it's not illegal to leave your dog outside at night - take some sleeping tablets!!

I dispair.

oh gee! that would drive me demented. had that here with a collie left tied up outside, no shelter etc and screaming and yelpede all night.

emailed the chief veterinary officer who knew me already and he passed it on to one of the dog wardens, it continued so next time chief vet officer told me it was not their concern,,, gardai and spca..so i contacted everyone and added the environmental health for good measure..then a letter to the owners, threatening personal legal action and suggesting they moved the dog nearer the house where they could hear it,
blissful silence since then. pen tends to be mightier than the sword.

re the fat dogs. i have an overweight collie. she was half starved her first 5 years and her metabolism was affected. she has been stable in weight for 8 years, is an old lady. and loves her food.

you mentioned the labs have been the same weight for some while. may be genetic perhaps.

muddypaws

Pretzill wrote: »

I really don't know what you're getting at here, I don't think there are many, if any, cases of well meant but uneducated owners underfeeding their dogs and over exercising them. There are many cases of owners overfeeding and under exercising though and this is normally resolved after their dog has had a routine check-up at the vets. It's a balance with nutrition and exercise - certain breeds find it difficult to gain weight too - I have a little guy who hasn't a pick on him, but he is a healthy weight for his size and breed.

My point, and I think, that of the OP, is that it isn't easily resolved, the OP stated that these dogs have been obese for 3 years. To my mind, that is abuse and cruelty, just as much as somebody not feeding a dog enough.

Actually, I know of a lot of people, who are quite well educated and experienced with dogs, that underfeed and over-exercise their dogs, so much so that the Kennel Club are now doing something about it.

Graces7

Pretzill wrote: »

I didn't say that at all. And neither did I say that the OP shouldn't report their fears. Being starved is not on par with being overfed, though. Some people don't even realise the harm obesity can cause their dogs and don't even see it as mistreatment. In fact it's summed up as the old saying "killed with kindness" - there does need to be more education around caring for our pets too.

A concerned few words, advice and a trip to the vet should begin to tackle an overweight dog - a dog who has been left to starve to death needs to be removed from the situation immeadiately - they aren't the same level of concern in that regard. But yes I think one should always speak out if they feel any animal is in distress.

risky though as it would offend me deeply if someone i did not know did as you are proposing. and it would polarise me.

maggiepip

muddypaws wrote: »

My point, and I think, that of the OP, is that it isn't easily resolved, the OP stated that these dogs have been obese for 3 years. To my mind, that is abuse and cruelty, just as much as somebody not feeding a dog enough.

Actually, I know of a lot of people, who are quite well educated and experienced with dogs, that underfeed and over-exercise their dogs, so much so that the Kennel Club are now doing something about it.

While I fully agree that overfeeding and allowing a dog to become obese is not a good thing and very unfair on a dog, I do think its wrong to put that on the same level as neglect and starvation of a dog. You do find in general that obese dogs are being "killed with kindness" the owners of these dogs need more education regarding good nutrition for their dog, and need to stop spoiling their dog with treats. But (however misguided) the owner thinks giving the dog lots of treats makes their dog happy - this is not the same or on the same level as someone who neglects and starves a dog.

muddypaws

maggiepip wrote: »

While I fully agree that overfeeding and allowing a dog to become obese is not a good thing and very unfair on a dog, I do think its wrong to put that on the same level as neglect and starvation of a dog. You do find in general that obese dogs are being "killed with kindness" the owners of these dogs need more education regarding good nutrition for their dog, and need to stop spoiling their dog with treats. But (however misguided) the owner thinks giving the dog lots of treats makes their dog happy - this is not the same or on the same level as someone who neglects and starves a dog.

We'll have to agree to disagree, overfeeding and not exercising a dog is, in my opinion, neglect, just the same as underfeeding.

maggiepip

muddypaws wrote: »

We'll have to agree to disagree, overfeeding and not exercising a dog is, in my opinion, neglect, just the same as underfeeding.

Well I was referring to overfeeding solely, a misguided kindness from many owners - not the same intention as neglect and starvation. There is a very overweight dog near me who is walked daily- and a good long walk she gets too. But she is still overweight - however (and I know the owner on a meet and chat basis) she has a lovely home and is treated like a queen. Now yes its wrong shes overweight but to throw someone like this owner into the same pot as an owner who has a starving dog out in the back yard 24/7 is wrong.

muddypaws

maggiepip wrote: »

Well I was referring to overfeeding solely, a misguided kindness from many owners - not the same intention as neglect and starvation. There is a very overweight dog near me who is walked daily- and a good long walk she gets too. But she is still overweight - however (and I know the owner on a meet and chat basis) she has a lovely home and is treated like a queen. Now yes its wrong shes overweight but to throw someone like this owner into the same pot as an owner who has a starving dog out in the back yard 24/7 is wrong.

Again, you're making an assumption. Nobody mentioned a starving dog out in the back yard 24/7.

maggiepip

muddypaws wrote: »

Again, you're making an assumption. Nobody mentioned a starving dog out in the back yard 24/7.

Oh dear. Muddypaws you have called overfeeding "neglect "and a "marker for mistreatment " in your previous posts - thats what I was referring to. Im not sure what your point is now.

muddypaws

maggiepip wrote: »

Oh dear. Muddypaws you have called overfeeding "neglect "and a "marker for mistreatment " in your previous posts - thats what I was referring to. Im not sure what your point is now.

My point is that I never said anything about a dog being left out in a back yard 24/7.

I still stand by my belief that overfeeding and under-exercising is neglect, and is as much a marker for mistreatment as an obviously underweight dog. If you care to read what I have actually posted, I said underfeeding and over-exercising, not sure how a dog could left in a yard 24/7 and be over-exercised.

Lack of education is no excuse for cruelty, whether that is over or under-feeding.

boomerang

A friend of mine has an overfed, 50kg female Retriever. Grossly obese. She's six or seven now and I see her hobbling painfully on her foreleg - she appears to have arthritis in the elbow and this is being massively worsened by her weight. She can barely run, and only for a short sprint. She is hardly walked, and is a very bored dog. She looks twice her age and is at increased risk of developing diabetes, cancer and other diseases. I strongly doubt she'll reach the average life expectancy for her breed. To me, that's just as bad as owner that under-feeds. I have counselled her repeatedly on the need to keep the dog's weight down and recommended low-cost weight reduction foods, but she never sticks with the plan. Some owners have a huge emotional need to express their love for a dog with treats and huge portions. They tend to be in denial about the dog's weight issue. It's really hard to get through to them.

moving_home

Great post boomerang. I also think some owners substitute time with treats. I know I give the dog a treat when I'm leaving her alone for a few hours and I think for some people, that can get out of hand.

Pretzill

moving_home wrote: »

Great post boomerang. I also think some owners substitute time with treats. I know I give the dog a treat when I'm leaving her alone for a few hours and I think for some people, that can get out of hand.

Treats can be a bugger! Now my dogs love a veggie treat - a slice of carrot - potato skin, brocolli floret etc. Because we have trained them to come in to treats - now treats are not additions but balanced with main meals. When we got our first two I think they thought they were hobbits because my OH, an early riser, would give them a little breakfast early and then I'd give them their normal breakfast later in the morning. It was only after a weigh in when both were 2kg over that the OH admitted they loved their slice of buttered toast for breakie! The vet explained it so well he said 1 slice of buttered toast to the dog was the equivillant of half a pan of toast to us! Needless to say they only got normal breakfast from then on!

boomerang

To dogs, food is food. I honestly don't think they discern between what we view as a "treat" - and food, plain and simple.

I always tell people that have someone living with them that is spoiling the dog's weight loss with treats: Measure out the amount of dog food the dog should get in the day. Keep it in a cup or container on the worktop. If someone wants to treat the dog for anything during the day, take a few pieces out of their daily allowance. That way the dog isn't getting extra.

Unfortunately a lot of owners (and neighbours!) treat the dog as an in-house waste food disposal system. :P Food shouldn't go to waste, ergo, give it to the dog... My next door neighbour will even leave cold, leftover chips on her dog's mound of food!

Graces7

boomerang wrote: »

To dogs, food is food. I honestly don't think they discern between what we view as a "treat" - and food, plain and simple.

I always tell people that have someone living with them that is spoiling the dog's weight loss with treats: Measure out the amount of dog food the dog should get in the day. Keep it in a cup or container on the worktop. If someone wants to treat the dog for anything during the day, take a few pieces out of their daily allowance. That way the dog isn't getting extra.

Unfortunately a lot of owners (and neighbours!) treat the dog as an in-house waste food disposal system. :P Food shouldn't go to waste, ergo, give it to the dog... My next door neighbour will even leave cold, leftover chips on her dog's mound of food!

have never used or given treats for any reason.
never seen the need. not for training or anything.
leftovers yes but as part of their food not extras. home cooked and raw fed. they love chips but they are rare in this house.

Ave Sodalis

Not saying that this is the case in the OP but we have a lab as well and have been told countless times that the dog is overweight. He has been to the vet and the vet also expressed concern, however upon inspection, discovered that he was actually a normal weight, he just had a deep chest which made him look fat.

muddypaws

Graces7 wrote: »

have never used or given treats for any reason.
never seen the need. not for training or anything.
leftovers yes but as part of their food not extras. home cooked and raw fed. they love chips but they are rare in this house.

Do you work for nothing? When you sell your products, do you mean that you actually give them away, or do people give you a reward for your work?

Graces7

muddypaws wrote: »

Do you work for nothing? When you sell your products, do you mean that you actually give them away, or do people give you a reward for your work?

roflol is all i can say to this post! for the laughter thank you. :pac:

there is of course no valid comparison.

my dogs get the reward of my affection and approval and praise. which is of more value to them than any food.

they do not work; they love to please and to be praised. mutual gain. not everything has a commercial base.

if you want to do it that way fine but i do not.

finding it hard to believe you are serious.
selling is trade not reward. but you know that of course.

muddypaws

Graces7 wrote: »

roflol is all i can say to this post! for the laughter thank you. :pac:

there is of course no valid comparison.

my dogs get the reward of my affection and approval and praise. which is of more value to them than any food.

they do not work; they love to please and to be praised. mutual gain. not everything has a commercial base.

if you want to do it that way fine but i do not.

finding it hard to believe you are serious.
selling is trade not reward. but you know that of course.

I don't think there's any need to be rude <snip>

Yes I am serious, as are all of the scientifically based, +R trainers in the world. Google "Skinner box" and you will see how operant conditioning works.

You may not use food, but you say that you do reward your animals with praise, whether you accept it or not (and I'm sure you won't), that is a reward. Not all dogs work best for food, some prefer toys etc, but yes, when a dog sits when asked, that is working for a reward. Your reward is praise, instead of being so dismissive of scientifically based, proven methods, perhaps you could try them, and see if they work for you. Not really sure how you can say that your praise is of more value than food, when you state you haven't used food. How do you know if you haven't actually compared? I think is a real shame that you haven't tried everything possible with your collie.

<snip>
Please do not make arguments personal.
Muddypaws and Graces7, there are two of you in this, so stop goading each other. Attack the post, not the poster and if you have a problem with a post, report it. Do not descend to pettiness.
Do not reply to this edit on thread.
Thanks,
DBB