Lane way at back of the house

levi

I'm looking for some advice as we are in the process of purchasing a house and our solicitor is going through the pre-contract inquiries one of which is in relation to a gated laneway to the rear of the house that provides us with rear access.

We've spoken to the neighbours and they informed us that the gate was put up a few years ago by the residents to stop illegal dumping as the council were unwilling to do anything about it. All of the residents have a key and it all sounds very amicable. Now our solicitor is looking for information from the vendor's solicitor regarding the ownership of the lane etc - the vendor's solicitor appears to know very little about this so we're getting a bit anxious that this might cause the closing date to slip or even cause issues with the vendor if the solicitor pushes things.

Does anyone know what the story is with these laneways? Does anyone in fact own them or is it a case of once the gate is put on them, they're the private property of the residents or how does it work?

mb1725

The title deed or deed of transfer of the property should include a way leave or a right of way clause if the lane is included.

levi

mb1725 wrote: »

The title deed or deed of transfer of the property should include a way leave or a right of way clause if the lane is included.

Not 100% sure what you mean here but I believe the solicitor has obtained the title deed and given how things have proceeded I can only assume that this way leave/right of way clause isn't present in the document. It is probably important to note that the lane provides rear access to the garage but we have separate access to the front onto a main road.

What does this mean for us that this clause is not present on the title deed? Does this mean that we have no claim to the lane as part of our purchase and that there is a risk that this may be potentially closed off without us having any say ultimately resulting in us losing this rear access?

Given our discussions with the neighbours, it seems unlikely that this would happen so just really wondering how this might proceed if there is no right of way clause - legally what can our solicitor look for?

mb1725

If the way leave or right of way is not shown on the title deed map or if your site layout map boundaries do not include it, then legally you may not own it. Doesn't say that you can't use it. I have seen a case where a similar access way leave was omitted in a sale and wasn't discovered until the next time the house went on the market.

Hollister11

This isn't the lane near park vale Baldoyle is it ?

athtrasna

This sounds like a laneway someone else posted about sometime last year..anyone else remember that thread?

levi

mb1725 wrote: »

If the way leave or right of way is not shown on the title deed map or if your site layout map boundaries do not include it, then legally you may not own it. Doesn't say that you can't use it. I have seen a case where a similar access way leave was omitted in a sale and wasn't discovered until the next time the house went on the market.

Thanks - our solicitor seems worried by the fact that there is no mention of it. He wants to make sure that we and the bank are satisfied if the position of the lane remains uncertain. This seems unusual as if we won't own the lane and no ownership was considered either by ourselves in bidding for the house or by the valuer when he valued it for the bank. How this is really all that relevant other than as a curiosity? Is the solicitor obliged to inform the bank if ownership/right of way cannot be determined?

Also, no this is not a lane in Baldoyle. It is in Dublin city though.

Edit: The lane is not included within the boundaries of the property.

Graces7

rights of way are a nightmare as you are finding

need to find who does own it, via land registry rather than the neighbours

i think you can find on the land registry who owns adjacent properties.

there is also some fairly new legislation re registering a right of way; google it. i have not found solicitors much help on this but you can register it fine and that would safeguard your access whoever owns it.

i gather others already use it. should make it easier.

good luck; scuse typing, broken wrist

mb1725

Another possibility: if the property was originally a Local Authority house then the council/corporation may not have transferred the laneway when they sold off the houses. This happened quite a lot and the laneway remained for sewer access /bin storage /common use etc.

levi

Thanks for all the replies.

This is not a former local authority house. We are not too concerned about the ownership of the lane - we're happy that it's communal and seems to have a community looking after it. However, this isn't the view of our solicitor who seems to think it could be a sticking point so he is persuing it more than we might like.

What we're looking for advice on is really whether or not this should be an issue or not? Will the uncertainty of the ownership of the lane need to be made known to the bank? I wouldn't have thought so given that the valuers report doesn't refer to it and it's not within the boundaries of the property. We don't want this to slow down things down and are happy with the set up as is.

redved

You need to have your right of way established to the laneway.
Despite how amicable things appear now you will be amazed how quickly things turn sour.
Unfortunately I am talking from experience having purchased a house 5 years ago in a similar situation, which has still not been resolved

No Pants

redved wrote: »

Despite how amicable things appear now you will be amazed how quickly things turn sour.

Pat Kenny could move in the next door or something.

Mrs OBumble

Do you have any need of the laneway? Would you be happy to brick up the gate, and never use it? suggestign that might calm the solicitor down.

In Galway, lots of these were established as public right-of-way (or whatever the legal term is). To close them off, the council had to cancel (whatever) the public access, before putting up gates at the end which the residents have keys too. It's still council owned land, just with restricted, and thus safer, access.

Graces7

redved wrote: »

You need to have your right of way established to the laneway.
Despite how amicable things appear now you will be amazed how quickly things turn sour.
Unfortunately I am talking from experience having purchased a house 5 years ago in a similar situation, which has still not been resolved

agree totally. if you have never been in this situation you may well not understand the ramifications etc.

that is why i said not to talk more with the neighbours!

op; need to take a firm hand with your solicitor. i had to change mine via the agent on my sale. it all went very sour. and he was dragging it on

you do simply need, whoever owns the lane, to register your right of way. does not matter then who owns it; you have the right to use it

i had to pester my solicitor

redved

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Do you have any need of the laneway? Would you be happy to brick up the gate, and never use it? suggestign that might calm the solicitor down.

QUOTE]

Not so sure if blocking up access to the laneway is such a good idea.
Would have repercussions for any future sale of the property and does not really resolve the issue long term.

First thing is to establish if a right of way exists via property title/land registry.

If not you will need to establish that the right of way exists in practice ie the previous owner had unrestricted access to the laneway.

adocholiday

Having worked in a department in one of the Dublin County Council's that dealt with these matters on a daily basis, I can almost guarantee that there won't be a quick fix to this. The developer buys a site and builds on it. They then transfer each property to the buyers, leaving all roadways, open spaces, laneways etc. in the ownership of the developer. The developer then transfers maintenance responsibility of the public areas to the council by means of a process called 'Taking in Charge'. This gives the Council the right to maintain the public roads, open spaces, water/waste services etc. but they don't actually hold title to the land so they have no power to transfer. This process wasn't followed a lot of the time either, so it could be a case that the developer still holds full unhindered title, but that's a different situation.

In most of these cases what was meant to happen was after a period of time (usually 21 years) the Council could get title to the areas taken in charge, but this was rarely ever done. Then the developer's company goes bust or he dies. So you are left with land being maintained by the Council, but they have no legal right to sell it, and the legal title possibly now untraceable, depending of course on the status of the developer. We had a particular case in one problematic housing estate with about 20 laneways as described by you. Took the Council almost 15 years to get the Title so that they could formally close the laneways, annul the right of way and transfer ownership to the houseowners who then incorporated the laneway into their gardens.

In the current situation you shouldn't really have an issue because all of the homeowners are on the same page. However should one of those people decide they now want to have the laneway opened, there's little anyone can do to stop it so long as the Right of Way exists and has not been formally extinguished. The only way you will acquire Title to this land is if you can identify the owner of the land, apply to have the right of way extinguished, and the Council agree to it. Also if there are water/waste services in the laneway the Council may never agree to it being enclosed in your garden because they will need 24/7 unhindered access.

These things can be a real nightmare. I would suggest that you contact Dublin City Council's Planning/Development section who will be able to tell you everything that you need to know. Good luck with it

levi

Thanks a mil.

We have been in touch with the council - they have charge over it. We have evidence of this. We do not want to take any part of this lane into our property - we just want use of the laneway to access our garage.

There are thousands of lanes like this around Dublin City so I'm surprised there isn't more readily available information on how to proceed.

adocholiday

OP how many residents are affected by the laneway? Who has access?

levi

Probably about 10-14 houses at a guess. All the residents who own a house that back onto the lane have a key to the gate, including the people we are buying the house off of.

adocholiday

Ok the only thing that I would be concerned about in that case would be that one of the residents takes it on themselves to extend their garden, thereby blocking the lane for the people on the other side of them. I would imagine the chances of that would be slim enough however, given that everyone seems to have a common understanding.

The best case for you would be that the Council's services run underneath the laneway. If they do the Council will have a wayleave over the lane, which means that for as long as those services are in the lane nobody can ever ever build on or enclose it. If they do the Council would be taking proceedings very swiftly (I've been involved in countless cases such as this).

If that's the case then I wouldn't worry too much about it OP. Even if no legal right of way or title has ever been established here, as long as the Council have some form of interest in it, you should be safe. You will probably never have any legal right other than access and shared use of it, but that's common across the country and nothing to be concerned about. If there was no gate blocking this lane, you wouldn't give it a second thought. Laneways and Rights of Way are a legal mess in Ireland unfortunately

riclad

I have seen many notices, in local paper where council ,have stated they are closing a laneway,
for reasons of security ,to stop anti social behavior ,
Usually the council put a steel gate with a lock on it ,on one end.
I think its unlikely this issue ,would stop the house being sold to you.

righteo

I need advice too !

There is a lane down to the right of my house leading to another estate. The neighbor on the other side wants it closed and said i could take it into my garden.

Is it that simple the developer has gone bust and the management company said i could do it. I don't want the land but would love to get rid of the foot traffic from my house.

any ideas

riclad

is your house at the end of the row of houses,
Would your other neighbour,s want acess to the estate.
IF the land is not owned by the council,
i don,t see a problem using the land ,
Unless your neighbours want to use the lane.
GET a letter from the management company,
giving you permission to take over the land, and block off the laneway.

righteo

riclad,
thanks the lane is just down between the two houses. foot access only to a different estate.

I was thinking that a letter would suffice. we are just tired of people running across the front lawn/living room window to the lane. My neighbor doesn't want to incur any cost is my feeling.

The house has eight properties either side with vehicle access and foot access too.

riclad

IT,LL look abit odd one house in the middle .blocking off the lane,
with houses on both sides .
OR do the other house,s intend to extend their gardens into the laneway ?You should let the neighbours on both sides, know before you start building a wall.

The_Morrigan

righteo wrote: »

I need advice too !

There is a lane down to the right of my house leading to another estate. The neighbor on the other side wants it closed and said i could take it into my garden.

Is it that simple the developer has gone bust and the management company said i could do it. I don't want the land but would love to get rid of the foot traffic from my house.

any ideas

You need to speak to a solr, you can't just block up a lane that you don't own. There may also be right of way issues to be dealt with.

riclad

GO to citizens advice centre, for advice on this issue .
Most estate s are taken over by the council ,
which takes over street cleaning, public lighting ,
so in that case they take ownership, of public, spaces between houses,
which includes laneways.

I understand there are some estates that are still run by management companys .
YES there could be an issue ,re public right of way,

I presume thats why the council puts up a notice in the local paper ,
re a laneway is being closed ,or blocked by a steel gate on 1 end .
eg its no longer public right of way.
Maybe post a drawing here,
is the laneway parallel to the rear of the house, garden ?
A wooden fence would stop people running into your garden.

adocholiday

You can't just close a right of way on a whim like that. Due process must be followed. Contact your solicitor before doing anything because you may leave yourself open to legal action

riclad

THERE was an article in the dailymail uk,a few weeks ago.
about a farmer ,
he put up high steel fences ,
on both sides of a large field,

to leave a narrow passage for the public,
SO the public can use the right of way .
without going across his land.
if this is on the plans, or defined as A public RIGHT OF way ,
You can,t just block it .
I think the plans of the estate would be avaidable to view in the public office.
or in the management company,s office.