Behaviour at the ASTI conference and Pat King's response

byhookorbycrook

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

As for Quinn. I didnt want him there but you dont heckle anybody. Surely we have other means? Of Opposition?

I wouldn't bother inviting a minister if I had a choice, why should he be there?As to opposition, what do you suggest?

acequion

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I wouldn't bother inviting a minister if I had a choice, why should he be there?As to opposition, what do you suggest?

I agree. And it was pretty much because I couldn't stand to be in the same room as him and King,that I opted out of attending this year. Fair play to those who did attend and put it up to them!

I don't see why he shouldn't be heckled. As it was previously pointed out ministers are heckled every day in the Dail. I really am not convinced that sitting there in stony silence sends a better message. And you'll always get the doormats who applaud and in so doing, undermine the silent dissenters.

We also shouldn't under estimate the entire public out there. There are many well informed individuals who can see Quinn's bullying for what it is. This very evening, while visiting a friend in hospital, I overheard nurses talking about him and his "arrogance". They were discussing the new so called JCSA with a patient and nobody was buying it.

evolving_doors

acequion wrote: »

I agree. And it was pretty much because I couldn't stand to be in the same room as him and King,that I opted out of attending this year. Fair play to those who did attend and put it up to them!

I don't see why he shouldn't be heckled. As it was previously pointed out ministers are heckled every day in the Dail. I really am not convinced that sitting there in stony silence sends a better message. And you'll always get the doormats who applaud and in so doing, undermine the silent dissenters.

We also shouldn't under estimate the entire public out there. There are many well informed individuals who can see Quinn's bullying for what it is. This very evening, while visiting a friend in hospital, I overheard nurses talking about him and his "arrogance". They were discussing the new so called JCSA with a patient and nobody was buying it.

I'd agree with this, I think the tide is turning compared to last year. This year the focus wasn't necessarily on teachers pay which media jocks love to stoke up. I've been following the coverage intently and by and large Pat king has come across as pretty media-shy in comparison with the other Union leaders.

Justin1982

If the ASTI invite the minister to speak at their conference then they should have shut up and let him finish his speech. Once he was finished then they could respond, whether by letter, email, a spokesperson or by all heckling him like idiots. Whatever way they wanted. But they should have let him finish first and listen to what he had to say.

If the idiots that did heckle him, actually listened to what he said then they might have noticed that he was'nt making a sexist comment at all. All he did was state some facts, quoted below. And primary school teaching is a highly feminised profession. He didnt say it in any way that implied he thought that should change or that its a problem. All he was trying to do was tie a research statistic in with the audience he was speaking to.

“I'll tell you why - to a highly feminised audience and profession - our research shows that young women who do the Junior Certificate and take Higher Level Mathematics comfortably in the Junior Certificate exam, drop Higher Level Mathematics when they do their Leaving Certificate because it is not a requirement.”

The ASTI doesnt really seem like the sort of organization that any minister for eduction could really do much business with. A bunch of tools shouting at him together doesnt really achieve much except burn bridges for dialogue. And I bet that not one of the "sisterhood" in the ASTI would have the balls to heckle the Minister face to face with him on their own if they didnt have their fellow hecklers to back them up. Group heckling is basically the same as violent mob rioting in its affect. Its just a low form of bullying.

And no I'm not a Labour or Ruairi Quinn supporter. Just a Joe Soap that's sick looking at union conferences (from different parts of public sector) heckle various Ministers and try bully them to enhance their own gains and push their own self preservation agenda. Unions dont really give a crap about improvement of the different areas such as Health, Education or Law Enforcement otherwise they'd work with Ministers in a much more productive manner and less aggressive.

teacherhead

Justin1982 wrote: »

If the ASTI invite the minister to speak at their conference then they should have shut up and let him finish his speech. Once he was finished then they could respond, whether by letter, email, a spokesperson or by all heckling him like idiots. Whatever way they wanted. But they should have let him finish first and listen to what he had to say.

If the idiots that did heckle him, actually listened to what he said then they might have noticed that he was'nt making a sexist comment at all. All he did was state some facts, quoted below. And primary school teaching is a highly feminised profession. He didnt say it in any way that implied he thought that should change or that its a problem. All he was trying to do was tie a research statistic in with the audience he was speaking to.

“I'll tell you why - to a highly feminised audience and profession - our research shows that young women who do the Junior Certificate and take Higher Level Mathematics comfortably in the Junior Certificate exam, drop Higher Level Mathematics when they do their Leaving Certificate because it is not a requirement.”

The ASTI doesnt really seem like the sort of organization that any minister for eduction could really do much business with. A bunch of tools shouting at him together doesnt really achieve much except burn bridges for dialogue. And I bet that not one of the "sisterhood" in the ASTI would have the balls to heckle the Minister face to face with him on their own if they didnt have their fellow hecklers to back them up. Group heckling is basically the same as violent mob rioting in its affect. Its just a low form of bullying.

And no I'm not a Labour or Ruairi Quinn supporter. Just a Joe Soap that's sick looking at union conferences (from different parts of public sector) heckle various Ministers and try bully them to enhance their own gains and push their own self preservation agenda. Unions dont really give a crap about improvement of the different areas such as Health, Education or Law Enforcement otherwise they'd work with Ministers in a much more productive manner and less aggressive.

Firstly, the Hons maths thing is relevant to primary teachers.

Secondly, the role of unions generally is to protect the terms and conditions of employment of the members.

Thirdly, there is no working with this minister. He doesn't do working with, he does announce and implement. The ncca is the statutory body responsible for advising the minister. He has ignored their advice, admitted that it was a political decision and that the main concern was money saving.

If you want to believe that teachers, and the bodies that represent them, don't care about students it's your business but it is not the case.

The JCSA has nothing to do with wages for teachers, IT has everything to do with reducing standards, dumbing down and saving money.

Imagine if every garage could do the nct on its own cars.... With no external monitoring. There may only be a few who would not do it correctly but how would you know? Who would ever find out?

For all its faults, the current JC is fair and equitable for each student.

derb12

Justin1982 wrote: »

If the ASTI invite the minister to speak at their conference then they should have shut up and let him finish his speech. Once he was finished then they could respond, whether by letter, email, a spokesperson or by all heckling him like idiots. Whatever way they wanted. But they should have let him finish first and listen to what he had to say.

If the idiots that did heckle him, actually listened to what he said then they might have noticed that he was'nt making a sexist comment at all. All he did was state some facts, quoted below. And primary school teaching is a highly feminised profession. He didnt say it in any way that implied he thought that should change or that its a problem. All he was trying to do was tie a research statistic in with the audience he was speaking to.

“I'll tell you why - to a highly feminised audience and profession - our research shows that young women who do the Junior Certificate and take Higher Level Mathematics comfortably in the Junior Certificate exam, drop Higher Level Mathematics when they do their Leaving Certificate because it is not a requirement.”

The ASTI doesnt really seem like the sort of organization that any minister for eduction could really do much business with. A bunch of tools shouting at him together doesnt really achieve much except burn bridges for dialogue. And I bet that not one of the "sisterhood" in the ASTI would have the balls to heckle the Minister face to face with him on their own if they didnt have their fellow hecklers to back them up. Group heckling is basically the same as violent mob rioting in its affect. Its just a low form of bullying.

And no I'm not a Labour or Ruairi Quinn supporter. Just a Joe Soap that's sick looking at union conferences (from different parts of public sector) heckle various Ministers and try bully them to enhance their own gains and push their own self preservation agenda. Unions dont really give a crap about improvement of the different areas such as Health, Education or Law Enforcement otherwise they'd work with Ministers in a much more productive manner and less aggressive.

A few basic errors here. Most of that happened at the INTO and the minister never said the quoted bit in his speech. He read from his script that he wanted to change the entry req for for primary school teaching and then, when he got a rather surprised curfuffle from the floor he went off script and started banging on about a feminised profession - very poorly chosen words which he later tried (and succeeded obviously) in backtracking from. I've since heard the two parts of the speech played on radio the other way around, which made it sound like the audience were hostile first and the minister said something stupid second when it was the other way around!
Also Sheila Nunan's sisterhood response (while a bit silly, I agree) was a response to that really ill-advised comment from RQ.

Listening to the conferences so far I was thinking RQ was making a hames of things and that this could be the year when the conference season brought about some positives for teachers in the media.

Unfortunately I agree with the posters who say that megaphone guy et al scored an own goal for the ASTI and I have no idea what Pat King is trying to pull with his death threat malarky at this point in time. Very little media discussion of the real issues facing teachers and that is a disappointment.

The TUI's approach of listening through gritted teeth was then too little too late. The "minister of announcements" dig is a very small win is a sea of anti-teacher soundbytes.

I didn't become a teacher to be thought of as a local hero, but I don't like to be vilified either. Those posters who don't care about public opinion should care. See how self-righteous a poster can be even though their grasp of the facts is tenuous at best? Multiply that by thousands and soon we have an un-winnable situation where unless all teachers have the balls of a megaphone man, we will eventually capitulate in any industrial action.

It is like the old adage : when you're explaining you're losing.

Justin1982

teacherhead wrote: »

Firstly, the Hons maths thing is relevant to primary teachers.

Secondly, the role of unions generally is to protect the terms and conditions of employment of the members.

Thirdly, there is no working with this minister. He doesn't do working with, he does announce and implement. The ncca is the statutory body responsible for advising the minister. He has ignored their advice, admitted that it was a political decision and that the main concern was money saving.

If you want to believe that teachers, and the bodies that represent them, don't care about students it's your business but it is not the case.

The JCSA has nothing to do with wages for teachers, IT has everything to do with reducing standards, dumbing down and saving money.

Imagine if every garage could do the nct on its own cars.... With no external monitoring. There may only be a few who would not do it correctly but how would you know? Who would ever find out?

For all its faults, the current JC is fair and equitable for each student.

I agree with you on what you are saying mainly.........but........the reality is that there is plenty of crap teachers that don't give a frig about their students or if they do give a frig are useless and couldn't effectively teach to save their lives. I've had plenty of first hand experience of this in second and third level. Primary level teaching seems to be of a very high standard in this country though.

I'm not really an expert on the JCSA. I can only say that having gone through the second level eduction system between 1995-2000, it was a pretty good system apart from lacking modern subjects like computer science and too much emphasis on Irish. So I wouldn't be in favour of changing it much from what I experienced either. But on saying that, if the minister for education gives a speech to the teachers of Ireland (I'd imagine that the ASTI is probably one of the only events where this happens) on their invitation then they should give him enough respect and hear him out before launching into bullying tactics and not letting him speak. I dont know Ruairi Quinn at all but I'd imagine that he is a somewhat reasonable man if spoken to in a decent manner. If teachers think that he is ever going to listen to them when they are all shouting and roaring at him then they are delusional. This constant heckling of politicians and harassment only leads to a situation where the management (politicians) are isolated from the employees they manage and communication channels break down.

At the end of the day, Quinn has tough choices to make so as to save money in a country where we are spending more on public service than we take in taxes. If the teachers of Ireland were that concerned or willing to compromise then they would put forward an alternative plan that would save the amount of money required while maintaining or improving the education standards that they want rather than just shouting at the minister. Alas, I doubt they are that bothered and as usual with the public service they seem to live in a deluded world where there is infinite money and their wages are never enough. They might accept that savings need to be made and that's fine as long as its not them. Public service should be somewhat grateful that the country which is realistically bankrupt is still paying their wages which came down feck all compared to the level of reduction in tax take during the recession. There is plenty of countries that went through major recessions and public servants dont get paid for months when there is no money available.

I work in the private sector so I can tell you how it worked there. Recession started properly at the end of 2008. By early 2009, wage cuts of between 5 and ten thousand were implemented along with compulsary redundancy for 10% of work force. Any free biscuits, fruit, food in canteen was removed immediately. Benefits were reviewed and either reduced or removed. All this happened without consultation from management. There was no resistance to all these cuts. Staff were expected to play ball and make further suggestions and efforts to cut costs to prevent further wage cuts and job losses. This was all at a time when the company was still making large profits thoughout the recession. The company quickly adapted to the changes, life went on, we were grateful for still having a job and the company came through the crisis in a stronger position. There was pay freezes and some more job losses until 2014 but company is now expanding again. And if I didnt like what was going on then I had the chance to pack my bags and find another job.

derb12

This minister doesn't want any input from the teachers. That is the problem.
He was listened to very politely and amicably by all unions at his first visit when he was first elected. He seemed reasonable and seemed like a minister you could work with.
When he started jamming CP 1 and CP2 and then HR down teacher's throats relations soured and while teachers resisted it, they have accepted very severe paycuts and deterioration of conditions. Now we have massive inequalities between new entrants and established teachers and a practically impossible job market for new graduates, which his 3rd level institutions are still churn out into a saturated market. And as a real two fingers to the wannabe teachers, the cost and duration of the course has doubled.
In theory, he has addressed parents concerns over expensive uniforms, school admission policies, religious grip on schools and the cost of school books. In practice all he has done is waste money on inconsequential surveys and changes in policy that make little or no difference.
The final straw for many is his "not fit for purpose" mantra re the JC and the new JCSA "plans" which educators on the ground almost universally deplore.
You cant' start your analysis of the situation at the point where the guy switched on his megaphone and say the teachers are bullies and completely in the wrong. That'd be like saying that Moyes was sacked just because ManU lost to Everton at the weekend and ignore all that went before it!
I don't agree with the megaphone guy (or with the Moyes sacking for that matter!) but I can see where he was coming from. A perspective of total frustration with a minister who has nothing to lose. Sounds like RQ will be riding off into the EU sunset and won't be facing the electorate again.

ytareh

Justin1982 wrote: »

I agree with you on what you are saying mainly.........but........the reality is that there is plenty of crap teachers that don't give a frig about their students or if they do give a frig are useless and couldn't effectively teach to save their lives. I've had plenty of first hand experience of this in second and third level. Primary level teaching seems to be of a very high standard in this country though.

I'm not really an expert on the JCSA. I can only say that having gone through the second level eduction system between 1995-2000, it was a pretty good system apart from lacking modern subjects like computer science and too much emphasis on Irish. So I wouldn't be in favour of changing it much from what I experienced either. But on saying that, if the minister for education gives a speech to the teachers of Ireland (I'd imagine that the ASTI is probably one of the only events where this happens) on their invitation then they should give him enough respect and hear him out before launching into bullying tactics and not letting him speak. I dont know Ruairi Quinn at all but I'd imagine that he is a somewhat reasonable man if spoken to in a decent manner. If teachers think that he is ever going to listen to them when they are all shouting and roaring at him then they are delusional. This constant heckling of politicians and harassment only leads to a situation where the management (politicians) are isolated from the employees they manage and communication channels break down.

At the end of the day, Quinn has tough choices to make so as to save money in a country where we are spending more on public service than we take in taxes. If the teachers of Ireland were that concerned or willing to compromise then they would put forward an alternative plan that would save the amount of money required while maintaining or improving the education standards that they want rather than just shouting at the minister. Alas, I doubt they are that bothered and as usual with the public service they seem to live in a deluded world where there is infinite money and their wages are never enough. They might accept that savings need to be made and that's fine as long as its not them. Public service should be somewhat grateful that the country which is realistically bankrupt is still paying their wages which came down feck all compared to the level of reduction in tax take during the recession. There is plenty of countries that went through major recessions and public servants dont get paid for months when there is no money available.

I work in the private sector so I can tell you how it worked there. Recession started properly at the end of 2008. By early 2009, wage cuts of between 5 and ten thousand were implemented along with compulsary redundancy for 10% of work force. Any free biscuits, fruit, food in canteen was removed immediately. Benefits were reviewed and either reduced or removed. All this happened without consultation from management. There was no resistance to all these cuts. Staff were expected to play ball and make further suggestions and efforts to cut costs to prevent further wage cuts and job losses. This was all at a time when the company was still making large profits thoughout the recession. The company quickly adapted to the changes, life went on, we were grateful for still having a job and the company came through the crisis in a stronger position. There was pay freezes and some more job losses until 2014 but company is now expanding again. And if I didnt like what was going on then I had the chance to pack my bags and find another job.

Cool story bro! Here's another . When I was earning about 15k as a teacher my private sector 'peers'/ friends were earning 25 . When I was on 25 they were in 45 . By the time I got to 45 (Celtic Tiger peak) They were well into six figure salaries ... Ever heard of swings and roundabouts ?
Why should WE always be the losers ?!As for the old myth of having to make cuts to pay for the bloated inefficient public service , the country does , did and was paying for itself before some morons decided to send billions away to pay for financial speculators debts .
Here's an interesting fact for ya ! The financial penalty aspect of the Versailles Treaty imposed on Germany after WW1 adjusted for inflation may have been less than the debt IMPOSED on Ireland . Adjusted per capita it's way more .THATS what Ruairis cuts are paying for ...

Justin1982

I'm not so sure that some of the policies he is trying to implement are necessarily that bad. At least he is trying to tackle the strangle hold of religion on schools. We spend more time teaching kids how to say their prayers, walk up the alter to receive their holy communion and learn a useless language than teach them how think independently, solve problems or any real life skills that will serve them in the future like how to save money, buy a house or communicate effectively with their future managers or how group cooperation works most effectively.

And I'm not sure that JCSA is necessarily the end of the world. The Junior Cert is not really of much importance anymore the way it was back up until the 90's and teachers are already assessing their students in first, second and fourth year. I haven't ever heard any protests from parents or students about a conspiracy by any teachers in the way they mark their students. It's open to abuse but at the end of the day if your relying on your junior cert to get you through the rest of your life then your probably half way up **** creek already.
Are teachers more up in arms at the fact that they will have to grade their own students and therefore those that were banking on the extra money for grading junior certs are not going to be getting paid anymore?

With the amount of people applying to do teacher training and getting in for training way exceeding the positions available then it makes sense to raise the bar to require honours maths to get a higher standard of teacher qualifying for teaching posts in primary schools.

As a manager and as someone is has managers above me, I know that its important that the communication channels remain open between management and employees. Managers make mistakes but its important that they are still listened to. One doesnt have to agree or stay quiet but there is a way it should work. Info should be allowed to flow down to employees without interuption, heckling, abuse, slagging or an environment of intimidation. Similarly info should flow back up via the appropriate channels via middle managers to senior management from employees. And all sides have to understand that this flow system is not perfect, especially in a large organization. But I have seen how it was perfected in my company (10,s of thousands of employee's) over a year or two to the point where senior management is constantly chasing employees on ground level to give further feedback as employees were listened to, ideas implemented and employees eventually ran out of feedback to give to a certain degree.

And I'd bet my life savings that effective communication channels used in private sector have not been opened up properly in the public sector. And I wouldnt necessarily blame Quinn or any other politician for that. Teachers have to take some blame for not getting effective and working communication channels opened up.

whiteandlight

There has been no communication and there is no sign of this improving. Quinn continues to just announce his initiatives without any consultation or ignoring the consultation that has been done even the NCCA the national curriculum advisory body. He has destroyed any relationship between teachers on the ground and the department.


And in relation to religion he is fudging the matter. If he really wanted to reduce the impact of religion in primary then he is well able to do it and a long time ago! All primary schools in the state, religious or otherwise who have teachers paid for by the Dept must follow the mandated curriculum INCLUDING the daily time allocated per subject afaik. All he had to do was amend it to reduce the time allocated to religion. He could also have mandated that te religious curriculum for primary school be broadened similar to the JC subject which looks at multiple religions.

Boom, religious impact on education heavily reduced. No need to mad consultations, lawyers, delays or attempts to transfer school ownership

2011abc

The private sector is about financial profit , the public sector is not . In any state I would want to live in the former exists to fund the latter and the latter is not seen as some kind of burden to be pared back to the minimum .
Justin I can't believe you're actually suggesting teachers should do what they're told by their 'superiors' with unquestioning obedience .'Lions being led by donkies ' isn't exclusive to British soldiers.
Dr James seems to be making just as good a job of destroying the healthcare system as his predecessor -and he's got a medical qualification - Ruairi is a flippin ' architect !

implausible

Justin1982 wrote: »

I'm not so sure that some of the policies he is trying to implement are necessarily that bad. At least he is trying to tackle the strangle hold of religion on schools. We spend more time teaching kids how to say their prayers, walk up the alter to receive their holy communion and learn a useless language than teach them how think independently, solve problems or any real life skills that will serve them in the future like how to save money, buy a house or communicate effectively with their future managers or how group cooperation works most effectively.

And I'm not sure that JCSA is necessarily the end of the world. The Junior Cert is not really of much importance anymore the way it was back up until the 90's and teachers are already assessing their students in first, second and fourth year. I haven't ever heard any protests from parents or students about a conspiracy by any teachers in the way they mark their students. It's open to abuse but at the end of the day if your relying on your junior cert to get you through the rest of your life then your probably half way up **** creek already.
Are teachers more up in arms at the fact that they will have to grade their own students and therefore those that were banking on the extra money for grading junior certs are not going to be getting paid anymore?

With the amount of people applying to do teacher training and getting in for training way exceeding the positions available then it makes sense to raise the bar to require honours maths to get a higher standard of teacher qualifying for teaching posts in primary schools.

As a manager and as someone is has managers above me, I know that its important that the communication channels remain open between management and employees. Managers make mistakes but its important that they are still listened to. One doesnt have to agree or stay quiet but there is a way it should work. Info should be allowed to flow down to employees without interuption, heckling, abuse, slagging or an environment of intimidation. Similarly info should flow back up via the appropriate channels via middle managers to senior management from employees. And all sides have to understand that this flow system is not perfect, especially in a large organization. But I have seen how it was perfected in my company (10,s of thousands of employee's) over a year or two to the point where senior management is constantly chasing employees on ground level to give further feedback as employees were listened to, ideas implemented and employees eventually ran out of feedback to give to a certain degree.

And I'd bet my life savings that effective communication channels used in private sector have not been opened up properly in the public sector. And I wouldnt necessarily blame Quinn or any other politician for that. Teachers have to take some blame for not getting effective and working communication channels opened up.

I would agree with some of his ideas too. However, within education circles, it is blatantly obvious that the way he is going about it is wrong. He is taking high-profile, soundbite-friendly shortcuts to what he wants and is not talking to those in the know. Can you imagine your manager or CEO making huge unilateral changes and not only forgetting to consult with the employees but completely ignoring the advice of experts and best practice elsewhere?

He wants to be the minister who took religion out of schools, who sorted out school uniforms and who brought in a new Junior Cert. If he wasn't so hell-bent on his legacy, he would realise that time and cooperation are needed for all of these changes. An unwieldy drawn-out transfer of ownership coupled with a survey that didn't yield the results or response he expected on the religion issue; a uniform survey whose wording showed that it was all about PR for himself and not actual change; and taking away accountability and national certification (while draining resources) from the Junior Cycle, while expecting teachers who are under constant pressure to do more for less to implement a new curriculum that is simply not ready to go.

I really don't want to rise to the bait about payment for corrections, but if you looked at the percentage of teachers who actually mark the current JC, you would realise that they are a small minority and that argument doesn't stand up.

In short, it's not RQ's ideas that are necessarily the problem, it's his self-promotion and ill-thought out efforts at implementation.

MrJones1973

Quinn will be gone before you are all back in schools. King has created a smokescreen to distract attention from failures. He gave same speech twice-Jan and April. If he felt seriously aggreived he would have at least lodged a formal complaint with ASTI, He didnt. If he was trying to start a crusade against bullying-why not mention Bullying of teachers? I agree with this

http://www.irishtimes.com/debate/letters/the-minister-and-the-teachers-1.1773030

byhookorbycrook

Response from the teacher with the megaphone:
ust want to clarify a few things.
I'm the teacher who brought the mega phone in to convention, I do appreciate those of you who have a different opinion than me. And absolutely there are many views in the union. I just want to say my piece then I'll allow you back to saying how disgraceful I was.

I just want to clarify there was no 'abuse' shouted through the megaphone. I simply told the minister that the reason I'm using this mega phone was as a symbol to show that he is refusing to listen to our voices. I then asked the minister if he would simply take questions from the floor from teachers while the media was present. I then put the megaphone on the table in front of me to give the minister the chance to respond. By doing that parents, students and teachers looking on would see a live discussion about the new junior cert in the open and not behind closed doors in a board room. The minister refused and continued to read out his pre rehearsed speech which contained many insults to our profession.

Some people disagree with that tactic to try to get the minister to listen to us. And ultimately he didn't. It's not like we didn't try other options, two years ago we stood in silence with protest placards, last year we walked out, all to no avail, so this year we wanted to try something different and urgent because this arrives on our doorsteps very soon. We decided to try to stop the formal speech that happens time and time again and try to get the minister to engage with teachers openly and thus highlighting our issues and btw in such a debate the minister would have his say also.

The comparison made by some in the media to us behaving like unruly students in my view does not wash because this was not a school, this was not a class room and we were not students. This was a UNION CONVENTION. The very places where we should be debating, arguing for different approaches, and organising a Fightback against the attacks on our profession and our students.

People have to remember that the media puts it's own spin on everything and there was no 'abuse' thrown at the minister yesterday. Yes people did get emotional myself included did shout things like 'lies' 'that's disgraceful' 'your not listening minister' 'stop dictating to us minister' the very same type of stuff which our actions are being called by some so I could play the abuse card if that's the case. There was no personal insults thrown at the minister from what I witnessed. Others may have a different account but I certainly didn't hear any.

Some people have called me all sorts over last couple of days from disgusting to immature etc etc and that is fine you are entitled to your opinion. But we have to remember what some might see as drastic behavior others might see as absolutely necessary, we are all coming from different backgrounds with different stresses in our lives, some work in more disadvantaged areas and witness the horrors the cutbacks are having on teachers and students there, some are struggling to pay mortgages others aren't, some are being shoved around from school to school every year others are permanent, some are working under draconian principals others have a great principal (for the record our school principal is the latter) we are all different and are at different stages of willingness to stand up for ourselves. But in my view we should all be standing for the weakest.

I've had some arguments and debates with various people over the week and have had great support over the week also and that's convention. And it's as it should be and long may it continue. I absolutely agree we should be united in fighting for our profession and our students but fighting unfortunately we are not. Some people think I should apologise to the minister but to do that would imply that I did something wrong and I genuinely believe that I didn't. What I did was try my best to get the minister to listen to us and when he refused, well you saw how angry a huge number in the hall got. I would also like to thank the hundreds of friends, teachers, parents and school students who have sent messages of support for us over the last few days.

happywithlife

What you did has gotten plenty of people talking in the wider public and for many it has opened to the new JCSA etc for the first time. I'm on other websites and in spite of posting before about my concerns re the proposals, it is only now that the debate /discussion has properly kicked off. In spite of a few begrudgers the vast majority of parents etc are only now realising the reality of what is happening at post primary level and surprisingly a few are coming are coming round to the realisation that this isn't about money or looking for extra pay, it's about the very real concerns we have for the future of education in this country. So for that alone, I thank you.
I don't always agree with the heckling of ministers etc at conference and think at times we do let ourselves down badly but I also have the cop on to realise that what is portrayed by the media is their own spin and not necessarily what actually happened. And as you rightly pointed out, holding up placards didn't work, walking out in protest didn't work. This has gotten people talking at last.

acequion

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Response from the teacher with the megaphone:
ust want to clarify a few things.
I'm the teacher who brought the mega phone in to convention, I do appreciate those of you who have a different opinion than me. And absolutely there are many views in the union. I just want to say my piece then I'll allow you back to saying how disgraceful I was.

I just want to clarify there was no 'abuse' shouted through the megaphone. I simply told the minister that the reason I'm using this mega phone was as a symbol to show that he is refusing to listen to our voices. I then asked the minister if he would simply take questions from the floor from teachers while the media was present. I then put the megaphone on the table in front of me to give the minister the chance to respond. By doing that parents, students and teachers looking on would see a live discussion about the new junior cert in the open and not behind closed doors in a board room. The minister refused and continued to read out his pre rehearsed speech which contained many insults to our profession.

Some people disagree with that tactic to try to get the minister to listen to us. And ultimately he didn't. It's not like we didn't try other options, two years ago we stood in silence with protest placards, last year we walked out, all to no avail, so this year we wanted to try something different and urgent because this arrives on our doorsteps very soon. We decided to try to stop the formal speech that happens time and time again and try to get the minister to engage with teachers openly and thus highlighting our issues and btw in such a debate the minister would have his say also.

The comparison made by some in the media to us behaving like unruly students in my view does not wash because this was not a school, this was not a class room and we were not students. This was a UNION CONVENTION. The very places where we should be debating, arguing for different approaches, and organising a Fightback against the attacks on our profession and our students.

People have to remember that the media puts it's own spin on everything and there was no 'abuse' thrown at the minister yesterday. Yes people did get emotional myself included did shout things like 'lies' 'that's disgraceful' 'your not listening minister' 'stop dictating to us minister' the very same type of stuff which our actions are being called by some so I could play the abuse card if that's the case. There was no personal insults thrown at the minister from what I witnessed. Others may have a different account but I certainly didn't hear any.

Some people have called me all sorts over last couple of days from disgusting to immature etc etc and that is fine you are entitled to your opinion. But we have to remember what some might see as drastic behavior others might see as absolutely necessary, we are all coming from different backgrounds with different stresses in our lives, some work in more disadvantaged areas and witness the horrors the cutbacks are having on teachers and students there, some are struggling to pay mortgages others aren't, some are being shoved around from school to school every year others are permanent, some are working under draconian principals others have a great principal (for the record our school principal is the latter) we are all different and are at different stages of willingness to stand up for ourselves. But in my view we should all be standing for the weakest.

I've had some arguments and debates with various people over the week and have had great support over the week also and that's convention. And it's as it should be and long may it continue. I absolutely agree we should be united in fighting for our profession and our students but fighting unfortunately we are not. Some people think I should apologise to the minister but to do that would imply that I did something wrong and I genuinely believe that I didn't. What I did was try my best to get the minister to listen to us and when he refused, well you saw how angry a huge number in the hall got. I would also like to thank the hundreds of friends, teachers, parents and school students who have sent messages of support for us over the last few days.

Fair play to you! You have the courage of your convictions and I know that you work tirelessly on behalf of teachers and education.What you did took guts and while people are entitled to criticise you if they wish,remember it's very easy to watch it all from afar while enjoying the Easter hols,and easy too to heap criticism on those who put themselves in the firing line.

As I said in an earlier post,I feel a lot more represented by people like you than I do by Pat King and I want to say a sincere thanks.

losullivan

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Response from the teacher with the megaphone:
ust want to clarify a few things.
I'm the teacher who brought the mega phone in to convention, I do appreciate those of you who have a different opinion than me. And absolutely there are many views in the union. I just want to say my piece then I'll allow you back to saying how disgraceful I was.

I just want to clarify there was no 'abuse' shouted through the megaphone. I simply told the minister that the reason I'm using this mega phone was as a symbol to show that he is refusing to listen to our voices. I then asked the minister if he would simply take questions from the floor from teachers while the media was present. I then put the megaphone on the table in front of me to give the minister the chance to respond. By doing that parents, students and teachers looking on would see a live discussion about the new junior cert in the open and not behind closed doors in a board room. The minister refused and continued to read out his pre rehearsed speech which contained many insults to our profession.

Some people disagree with that tactic to try to get the minister to listen to us. And ultimately he didn't. It's not like we didn't try other options, two years ago we stood in silence with protest placards, last year we walked out, all to no avail, so this year we wanted to try something different and urgent because this arrives on our doorsteps very soon. We decided to try to stop the formal speech that happens time and time again and try to get the minister to engage with teachers openly and thus highlighting our issues and btw in such a debate the minister would have his say also.

The comparison made by some in the media to us behaving like unruly students in my view does not wash because this was not a school, this was not a class room and we were not students. This was a UNION CONVENTION. The very places where we should be debating, arguing for different approaches, and organising a Fightback against the attacks on our profession and our students.

People have to remember that the media puts it's own spin on everything and there was no 'abuse' thrown at the minister yesterday. Yes people did get emotional myself included did shout things like 'lies' 'that's disgraceful' 'your not listening minister' 'stop dictating to us minister' the very same type of stuff which our actions are being called by some so I could play the abuse card if that's the case. There was no personal insults thrown at the minister from what I witnessed. Others may have a different account but I certainly didn't hear any.

Some people have called me all sorts over last couple of days from disgusting to immature etc etc and that is fine you are entitled to your opinion. But we have to remember what some might see as drastic behavior others might see as absolutely necessary, we are all coming from different backgrounds with different stresses in our lives, some work in more disadvantaged areas and witness the horrors the cutbacks are having on teachers and students there, some are struggling to pay mortgages others aren't, some are being shoved around from school to school every year others are permanent, some are working under draconian principals others have a great principal (for the record our school principal is the latter) we are all different and are at different stages of willingness to stand up for ourselves. But in my view we should all be standing for the weakest.

I've had some arguments and debates with various people over the week and have had great support over the week also and that's convention. And it's as it should be and long may it continue. I absolutely agree we should be united in fighting for our profession and our students but fighting unfortunately we are not. Some people think I should apologise to the minister but to do that would imply that I did something wrong and I genuinely believe that I didn't. What I did was try my best to get the minister to listen to us and when he refused, well you saw how angry a huge number in the hall got. I would also like to thank the hundreds of friends, teachers, parents and school students who have sent messages of support for us over the last few days.

You should put this response up on the Fightback facebook.That page has received a huge increase in likes in the last couple of days.Lots of people out there support you!

byhookorbycrook

Just to clarify, I am not the megaphone teacher! I'm a female primary teacher.

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Just to clarify, I am not the megaphone teacher! I'm a female primary teacher.

You could have been on Opera if you'd'a said nothing byhookorbycrook...
Where did you get the text from?

losullivan

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Just to clarify, I am not the megaphone teacher! I'm a female primary teacher.

Don't worry,it's clear that you're posting on his behalf.I responded because I assume he's reading this thread,thanks.

Terri26

Armelodie wrote: »

You could have been on Opera if you'd'a said nothing byhookorbycrook...
Where did you get the text from?

It's from his own Facebook page.

Theequalizer67

What most annoyed me was why the minister was even invited this year. If the guards can uninvite shatter then it's good enough for asti. It should not be a given that this minister be asked to speak after savage pay cuts and not listening ref JC. Meek asti leadership - again.

I have to say though the interviews on Sean orourke from Andrew phelan and in particular from mark walshe were instructive.
I recommend a listen. Real teachers discussing real issues.
Why does pat king never speak like this ??
maybe being on 130k and far from a classroom doesn't help.

Even though I don't like much of fightback tactics, it is clear again this week that pat king et al are undemocratic
- some members are valued more than others in the same way some members pay was protected and others wasn't.

The sec/cec of asti are more obsessed with union politics and fightback instead of defending ordinary members interests.
Too much Union , not enough Trade.

I'm leaving asti until all members are paid on same scale which again asti sold out on this principle.
Solidarity my arse.

byhookorbycrook

losullivan wrote: »

Don't worry,it's clear that you're posting on his behalf.I responded because I assume he's reading this thread,thanks.

????? Not to me it's not, got it off the Voice For Teachers FB page.

f3232

King used more energy attacking the megaphone guy then he ever has defending teachers pay and conditions. There was something so sickening seeing him squabbling with asti fight back trying to bury them when set against his complete Capitulation to Quinn.

acequion

f3232 wrote: »

King used more energy attacking the megaphone guy then he ever has defending teachers pay and conditions. There was something so sickening seeing him squabbling with asti fight back trying to bury them when set against his complete Capitulation to Quinn.

I agree.He quite clearly feels very threatened by them which is one up for them.His and last year's president's hostility towards them was already very obvious at last year's conference. King,as GS,really is unfit for purpose.

Justin1982

2011abc wrote: »

The private sector is about financial profit , the public sector is not . In any state I would want to live in the former exists to fund the latter and the latter is not seen as some kind of burden to be pared back to the minimum .
Justin I can't believe you're actually suggesting teachers should do what they're told by their 'superiors' with unquestioning obedience .'Lions being led by donkies ' isn't exclusive to British soldiers.
Dr James seems to be making just as good a job of destroying the healthcare system as his predecessor -and he's got a medical qualification - Ruairi is a flippin ' architect !

I don't think that the public sector is viewed as something that needs to be pared back so it cant function or its employees treated like dirt. But if the current public education system was treated as a private company it would have disappeared off the planet a few years ago. And I just can't imagine the head of a private company in this recession getting so much stick from its employee's as he tries to cut costs and at the same time raise standards or implement reform.
I'm not suggesting that teachers should do what they're told by their 'superiors' with unquestioning obedience. But they have to listen to the head of the company when he speaks on their invitation and they should really hold off on the heckling and response until they digest what he has just said. His comments on feminisation of education were harmless and completely mis-interpretated straight away by the audience. I work as a manager and I have managers above me. I see it every day, how important it is to listen to your manager, attempt to do what he asks you to do and try to see it from his point of view as they will often be seeing the bigger picture and be better informed. I've come to appreciate this more since becoming a manager. There is nothing worse than having employees under you who stubbornly refuse to action what you ask them, think they know better than you when they don't fully understand your reasons for a request and just ignore you or instantly argue and disagree with you when you propose something. Management do make mistakes or are sometimes don't implement plans efficiently (including myself) but I as an employee feel its my duty to just get on with what they have asked. If its 100% wrong then as an employee you need to go away, find a better solution and present it to management effectively as a starting point. I shoudnt be a wilting violet but I shouldnt be ramming my opposition down their throats. If they dont accept my point of view then I do have to move on a lot of the time and do what they asked. Its their fault if it goes arse ways in the end.

Looking at other areas of the public service that are in crisis over the last few years well it looks more to me like bad management within the organizations. Gardai problems were self inflicted recently. FAS problems showed that there was widespread negligence of duty by employee's at all levels, not just the management. HSE is supposedly riddled by bad management. No matter how much money was thrown at HSE it failed and wasted. I worked there for a few years in all areas of a regional hospital and I never saw such uselessness in certain sections of the staff who got away with murder.

Of course there is plenty of problems with government but I do think that they generally are trying to innovate and progress all areas of the public sector but are getting paralyzed by powerful unions and some useless or troublesome staff in a lot of areas (obviously I'm not trying to tar everyone with the same brush before this is completely taken the wrong way)

By the way, I'm getting the sequence of events from the below Indo article.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/ruairi-quinns-comments-about-feminisation-of-education-go-down-like-lead-balloon-30208110.html

evolving_doors

Justin1982 wrote: »

I don't think that the public sector is viewed as something that needs to be pared back so it cant function or its employees treated like dirt. But if the current public education system was treated as a private company it would have disappeared off the planet a few years ago. And I just can't imagine the head of a private company in this recession getting so much stick from its employee's as he tries to cut costs and at the same time raise standards or implement reform.
I'm not suggesting that teachers should do what they're told by their 'superiors' with unquestioning obedience. But they have to listen to the head of the company when he speaks on their invitation and they should really hold off on the heckling and response until they digest what he has just said. His comments on feminisation of education were harmless and completely mis-interpretated straight away by the audience. I work as a manager and I have managers above me. I see it every day, how important it is to listen to your manager, attempt to do what he asks you to do and try to see it from his point of view as they will often be seeing the bigger picture and be better informed. I've come to appreciate this more since becoming a manager. There is nothing worse than having employees under you who stubbornly refuse to action what you ask them, think they know better than you when they don't fully understand your reasons for a request and just ignore you or instantly argue and disagree with you when you propose something. Management do make mistakes or are sometimes don't implement plans efficiently (including myself) but I as an employee feel its my duty to just get on with what they have asked. If its 100% wrong then as an employee you need to go away, find a better solution and present it to management effectively as a starting point. I shoudnt be a wilting violet but I shouldnt be ramming my opposition down their throats. If they dont accept my point of view then I do have to move on a lot of the time and do what they asked. Its their fault if it goes arse ways in the end.

Looking at other areas of the public service that are in crisis over the last few years well it looks more to me like bad management within the organizations. Gardai problems were self inflicted recently. FAS problems showed that there was widespread negligence of duty by employee's at all levels, not just the management. HSE is supposedly riddled by bad management. No matter how much money was thrown at HSE it failed and wasted. I worked there for a few years in all areas of a regional hospital and I never saw such uselessness in certain sections of the staff who got away with murder.

Of course there is plenty of problems with government but I do think that they generally are trying to innovate and progress all areas of the public sector but are getting paralyzed by powerful unions and some useless or troublesome staff in a lot of areas (obviously I'm not trying to tar everyone with the same brush before this is completely taken the wrong way)

By the way, I'm getting the sequence of events from the below Indo article.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/ruairi-quinns-comments-about-feminisation-of-education-go-down-like-lead-balloon-30208110.html

Firstly the education system is not a private company, but even if it we're ..say like the toyota car company. Would you have any issue if the 'boss' was an ice cream man, drives a Merc., publicly states it's workforce are never good enough and then decides manufacturing tractors is the best way forward, even though they have only been in the company for 4 years and will be leaving in 2. But also has major ideas for reform of the company uniform, canteen and car park.

I also worked for the Hse (then health board), and I can tell you from my experience it was never the frontline staff who ' got away with murder' and just like the teaching ' profession' it's the frontline staff and the patients/children who have to take the brunt of the 'savings initiatives'. Most teachers are clued in enough to know that the new JC is attempting to copy the ' innovations' of the UK, and the UK are now trying to undo that same ten year 'experiment' we are setting out on.

Take for example the testing procedure.. one JC class draws a picture as a project , students get graded, principal gets onto the teacher and says that the grades must be increased to conform to the bell curve. In another school the students do indepth research assignment and presentation and some students have to be marked down ..to fit the bell curve. Wheres the standardisation?

Finally the indo. is a known teacher bashing rag. Also consider one of Ruairi's advisors was former journalist of the education section there. One reason only.. spin, spin, shpin.

MrJones1973

As a Branch Secretary and CEC member Im debating leaving the union. Nothing to do with Fightback. I admire them greatly. Not all their tactics but the broad thrust of their campaign. I want to leave because our union ASTI-will give in again on JC. With or without Quinn. It wont be the same JC as proposed. A compromise will ensue. But we will correct our own students-count on it. The members will cave. This new JC has been knocking around a decade.

Only a sustained No campaign would win. I cant see that occurring in ASTI. Pat King is too subservient to the Department. Perhaps polite is a better word . Until the General Secretary is elected by members then the ASTI wont change. Its up to those under 30 to push change before its too late. Im 48. I can bid my time . I will have only a decade to suffer under this mess.

I have no delusions on my importance to ASTI. Im writing this to articulate my own feelings but if anybody said-Should I stay in ASTI. I could not give them one reason. YES-its legal insurance but thats hardly enough? The ASTI acts now as a defective brake. It simply slows down the crash-but the crash happens!

ytareh

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The ASTI acts now as a defective brake. It simply slows down the crash-but the crash happens!

Its highly debatable whether or not theyre slowing down anything!We were happy out before Christmas with our work to rule-most relaxing period in teaching for years -and they rushed through the third vote ('legal advice'/'emergency' meeting etc ...)ending it all .
Theres no doubt certain elements are in collusion with government - Quango/'Special Advisor' positions would certainly prove it in years to come ...
I wonder has their been any discussion on lost membership due to the sell out ?

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

As a Branch Secretary and CEC member Im debating leaving the union. Nothing to do with Fightback. I admire them greatly. Not all their tactics but the broad thrust of their campaign. I want to leave because our union ASTI-will give in again on JC. With or without Quinn. It wont be the same JC as proposed. A compromise will ensue. But we will correct our own students-count on it. The members will cave. This new JC has been knocking around a decade.

If secondary teachers oppose assessing their pupils then why would they cave in?

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Only a sustained No campaign would win. I cant see that occurring in ASTI.

It is a sustained campaign. The assessment system won't work if teachers refuse to do the assessment.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Pat King is too subservient to the Department. Perhaps polite is a better word . Until the General Secretary is elected by members then the ASTI wont change. Its up to those under 30 to push change before its too late. Im 48. I can bid my time . I will have only a decade to suffer under this mess.

Why has Pat King done everything in his power to avoid major industrial action? Either way, he'll get a good pension. So why does whether or not a strike takes place matter to him?

endakenny

ytareh wrote: »

Its highly debatable whether or not theyre slowing down anything!We were happy out before Christmas with our work to rule-most relaxing period in teaching for years -and they rushed through the third vote ('legal advice'/'emergency' meeting etc ...)ending it all .

All members still had a choice. The industrial action would have continued if most of those members who voted in CPA2/HRA ballot Number 3 had voted No.

Peter Flynt

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

As a Branch Secretary and CEC member Im debating leaving the union. Nothing to do with Fightback. I admire them greatly. Not all their tactics but the broad thrust of their campaign. I want to leave because our union ASTI-will give in again on JC. With or without Quinn. It wont be the same JC as proposed. A compromise will ensue. But we will correct our own students-count on it. The members will cave. This new JC has been knocking around a decade.

Only a sustained No campaign would win. I cant see that occurring in ASTI. Pat King is too subservient to the Department. Perhaps polite is a better word . Until the General Secretary is elected by members then the ASTI wont change. Its up to those under 30 to push change before its too late. Im 48. I can bid my time . I will have only a decade to suffer under this mess.

I have no delusions on my importance to ASTI. Im writing this to articulate my own feelings but if anybody said-Should I stay in ASTI. I could not give them one reason. YES-its legal insurance but thats hardly enough? The ASTI acts now as a defective brake. It simply slows down the crash-but the crash happens!

I left the ASTI the day after the third ballot on Croke Park 2/Haddington Road.

Enough was enough. I admire those in ASTI Fightback and the work they have done in highlighting the dismantling of the Teaching profession. The anger is there and the youth are not prepared to put up with the **** their senior colleagues are apparently putting up with.

I agree completely (and have stated on here numerous times) that the ASTI will capitulate on Junior Cert reform. This year appears to be a re-run of last year with Junior Cert ballots replacing Haddington Road ballots.

The question is - When will King deliver for Quinn again?

Quinn wants English up and running in September. If that is to occur then there'll have to be a ballot over the summer (yet another one)

Thing is though - Quinn really screwed it up for both of them by coming out and offering public support for King as King was busy launching a dubious campaign to attack the members who pay his wages.

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

All members still had a choice. The industrial action would have continued if most of those members who voted in CPA2/HRA ballot Number 3 had voted No.

Thanks for the reminder (yet again) Enda. Each time this comment is stated I wonder is it expected that the teaching profession accept everything that is handed down from on high simply because.. "we'll ye had yeer chance but ye voted Yes in the end".

endakenny

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I left the ASTI the day after the third ballot on Croke Park 2/Haddington Road.

Enough was enough. I admire those in ASTI Fightback and the work they have done in highlighting the dismantling of the Teaching profession. The anger is there and the youth are not prepared to put up with the **** their senior colleagues are apparently putting up with.

I agree completely (and have stated on here numerous times) that the ASTI will capitulate on Junior Cert reform. This year appears to be a re-run of last year with Junior Cert ballots replacing Haddington Road ballots.

The question is - When will King deliver for Quinn again?

Quinn wants English up and running in September. If that is to occur then there'll have to be a ballot over the summer (yet another one)

Thing is though - Quinn really screwed it up for both of them by coming out and offering public support for King as King was busy launching a dubious campaign to attack the members who pay his wages.

The unions accepted right from the start that the minister has the authority to change the curriculum and they oppose assessment of pupils by their teachers but the first assessment of JCSA English is not scheduled to take place until 2016 to 2017. Therefore, there is a lot of time to sort it out.

Peter Flynt

endakenny wrote: »

The unions accepted right from the start that the minister has the authority to change the curriculum and they oppose assessment of pupils by their teachers but the first assessment of JCSA English is not scheduled to take place until 2016 to 2017. Therefore, there is a lot of time to sort it out.

It's a three year course.

MrJones1973

It is a 3 year course but I really wonder if you are teaching it -are you heading towards assessing...de facto?

I think union should say don't teach it if they think legally they could get away with it. Remains to be seen.
The union(s) could be sued by the state if they promoted an illegal act.

MrJones1973

endakenny wrote: »

If secondary teachers oppose assessing their pupils then why would they cave in?


It is a sustained campaign. The assessment system won't work if teachers refuse to do the assessment.



Why has Pat King done everything in his power to avoid major industrial action? Either way, he'll get a good pension. So why does whether or not a strike takes place matter to him?

Think about it. A strike means a lot of work for him. He to be fair to him-did fear redundancies of teachers. My main beef with him was that he promoted HR against the No vote of CEC. He is am employee of ASTI.

ytareh

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

He to be fair to him-did fear redundancies of teachers.

Youre giving him far more credit there than I would.

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Think about it. A strike means a lot of work for him. He to be fair to him-did fear redundancies of teachers. My main beef with him was that he promoted HR against the No vote of CEC. He is am employee of ASTI.

There is only a very small number of teachers whose jobs are out of line with the pupil-teacher ratio. Therefore, I don't see how the threat of redundancy on its own was enough to swing the majority vote to Yes.

endakenny

Peter Flynt wrote: »

It's a three year course.

According to the Sunday Times article "Must do better" (27 April), in which Sarah McInerney asks if Quinn will squeeze his reforms past teachers or be booted out as education minister, the ASTI is threatening industrial action in relation to teacher assessment of students, "that aspect of the new system does not happen until 2016, so it poses no immediate problem".

Therefore, my point still stands: there is a lot of time to sort it out.

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

It is a 3 year course but I really wonder if you are teaching it -are you heading towards assessing...de facto?

No. As it says in the Sunday Times article that I have quoted, the assessment in JCSA English doesn't happen until 2016. If teachers still refuse to do it, then the Department would have to bring in an alternative assessment system because leaving JC pupils without exams at the end of junior cycle would make parents as angry with the Department as with, maybe even more than, the unions, i.e. "A plague on both your houses". It would be irresponsible of the Department to play "chicken" with pupils' academic prospects.

varberg

Not sure if this is the right thread for this but its a good article about teaching at the minute.

http://lornanic.wordpress.com/2014/04/28/have-teachers-reached-breaking-point/

r3nu4l

I am not a teacher so will provide an 'outsiders' perspective of the events involving the megaphone heckler.

I'll preface this by saying that my brother is a young teacher so I understand the frustrations of teachers right now.

However, the behaviour of Andrew Phelan was shameful. Whether teachers like it or not, they are role models for kids and how they are seen to handle disputes and problems is very important. Phelan's actions have said to kids that when a dispute becomes difficult it's okay to shout down the opposition and show total disrespect for the other person.

However, according to the Independent Phelan is or was a member of the Socialist Party and having seen SP in action I can see that he was simply aping their tactics.

The whole event is nothing short of disgraceful and the fact that people here are defending the action is worrying. Perhaps these people share the same political leanings as Phelan but haven't disclosed that position on-thread?

As a parent myself I would be horrified to think that my child was attending a school with someone like Phelan teaching. As teachers it may seem that everything you say goes in and out of the ears of many of your pupils but you might be surprised at how much they are actually listening to and how much of your behaviour they mimic.

The total lack of respect, inappropriate behaviour and general poor attitude from Phelan and those who support his action is deplorable. I think we need a better way of selecting teachers than simply saying a degree and HDip is enough.

I've no problem with the fact that Phelan feels strongly and passionately about the wrongs against the teaching profession that the government have been responsible for but his behaviour and actions were atrocious. I honestly believe that there should be sanction for that sort of behaviour. If a student did that in protest against a poor teacher who was damaging their education they would most likely be disciplined by either suspension or exclusion.

No doubt a lot of you here will disagree but that's the perspective of someone who is a parent and whose opinion matters.

katiecork wrote: »

Our students first teachers are their parents. These are the people who watched the news and read the papers/forums. These are the people who see our
behaviour as childish and unprofessional. These people have a direct effect on their children's attitude to education-not us. What some people have lost sight of is our public loss of respect has been achieved by ourselves. Yes we are right to protest against what has been said but not by drowning out via megaphone or calling on us sisters to unite! We are a highly educated group of people. Why don't we act like it. Our representatives at Union level are pathetic negotiators who have little transparency and much more of a political agenda than is healthy for our profession.

I agree with most of your points here but would also point out that Phelan and some of his cronies appear to have their own political agendas too...

Peter Flynt

r3nu4l wrote: »

I am not a teacher so will provide an 'outsiders' perspective of the events involving the megaphone heckler.

I'll preface this by saying that my brother is a young teacher so I understand the frustrations of teachers right now.

However, the behaviour of Andrew Phelan was shameful. Whether teachers like it or not, they are role models for kids and how they are seen to handle disputes and problems is very important. Phelan's actions have said to kids that when a dispute becomes difficult it's okay to shout down the opposition and show total disrespect for the other person.

However, according to the Independent Phelan is or was a member of the Socialist Party and having seen SP in action I can see that he was simply aping their tactics.

The whole event is nothing short of disgraceful and the fact that people here are defending the action is worrying. Perhaps these people share the same political leanings as Phelan but haven't disclosed that position on-thread?

As a parent myself I would be horrified to think that my child was attending a school with someone like Phelan teaching. As teachers it may seem that everything you say goes in and out of the ears of many of your pupils but you might be surprised at how much they are actually listening to and how much of your behaviour they mimic.

The total lack of respect, inappropriate behaviour and general poor attitude from Phelan and those who support his action is deplorable. I think we need a better way of selecting teachers than simply saying a degree and HDip is enough.

I've no problem with the fact that Phelan feels strongly and passionately about the wrongs against the teaching profession that the government have been responsible for but his behaviour and actions were atrocious. I honestly believe that there should be sanction for that sort of behaviour. If a student did that in protest against a poor teacher who was damaging their education they would most likely be disciplined by either suspension or exclusion.

No doubt a lot of you here will disagree but that's the perspective of someone who is a parent and whose opinion matters.



I agree with most of your points here but would also point out that Phelan and some of his cronies appear to have their own political agendas too...

Have you anything to say which doesn't involve an attack on one person - Andrew Phelan?

Seriously - Grow up.

Teaching needs more Andrew Phelans.

Powerhouse

r3nu4l wrote: »

I am not a teacher so will provide an 'outsiders' perspective of the events involving the megaphone heckler.

I'll preface this by saying that my brother is a young teacher so I understand the frustrations of teachers right now.

However, the behaviour of Andrew Phelan was shameful. Whether teachers like it or not, they are role models for kids and how they are seen to handle disputes and problems is very important. Phelan's actions have said to kids that when a dispute becomes difficult it's okay to shout down the opposition and show total disrespect for the other person.

However, according to the Independent Phelan is or was a member of the Socialist Party and having seen SP in action I can see that he was simply aping their tactics.

The whole event is nothing short of disgraceful and the fact that people here are defending the action is worrying. Perhaps these people share the same political leanings as Phelan but haven't disclosed that position on-thread?

As a parent myself I would be horrified to think that my child was attending a school with someone like Phelan teaching. As teachers it may seem that everything you say goes in and out of the ears of many of your pupils but you might be surprised at how much they are actually listening to and how much of your behaviour they mimic.

The total lack of respect, inappropriate behaviour and general poor attitude from Phelan and those who support his action is deplorable. I think we need a better way of selecting teachers than simply saying a degree and HDip is enough.

I've no problem with the fact that Phelan feels strongly and passionately about the wrongs against the teaching profession that the government have been responsible for but his behaviour and actions were atrocious. I honestly believe that there should be sanction for that sort of behaviour. If a student did that in protest against a poor teacher who was damaging their education they would most likely be disciplined by either suspension or exclusion.

No doubt a lot of you here will disagree but that's the perspective of someone who is a parent and whose opinion matters.



I agree with most of your points here but would also point out that Phelan and some of his cronies appear to have their own political agendas too...

To be honest your repeated use of a person's name and the reference to political affiliation damages your claim to be an 'outsider' with the concomitant 'voice of reason' implication. The motivation behind the ad hominem nature of your comments will, presumably, remain concealed but is poor form. How dare you have the arrogance to say you'd be horrified that someone whose only 'crime' is to be exercised enough about their job to demonstrate to the relevant Minister was to teach you children. Chances are you might instead be lucky if they came into the ambit of someone with principles and a bit of backbone.

On the broader point many people need to be far more mature and politically aware when commenting on the teacher conference. Even Quinn himself, in reference to the incident, said he accepted the nature of robust debate and frankly seemed to have far less of a problem with it than many knee-jerk opinion-givers who inappropriately and lazily try to draw an analogy with a classroom situation.*

This is an adult situation where an employer is addressing a union. In the real world - as oppose to the notional one where the Minister is the 'teacher' taking a 'class' - such relationships are often strained. The Gardaí don't even invite the Minister in their area. People need to get a grip on the reality of this situation and stop making lazy comparisons. This sort of thing happens once in a blue moon - civilisation as we know it is hardly threatened.

Finally, as a parent myself I would wholeheartedly encourage my children to stand up for themselves if they felt they were the victim of unfair and unjust behaviour. Anyone who has dealt with bullying situations would concur. The idea that you always, irrespective of the circumstances, sit down and be seen and not heard belongs in the dark ages.

Incidentally, I make that point only to answer the point already made. I think the 'I'm a parent myself' line is a tad conceited (many parents are walking disasters with appalling judgement as many teachers who have to co-exist daily with those young people under their influence will attest, so we would not want to overplay that line and imply that parents have superior judgement) and irrelevant. But if we are going to indulge ourselves on the matter of our parenthood, let it at least be said that not everyone wants to raise a generation of quislings and cap-doffers who know to be seen and not heard.

*(An Irish Times editorial went one better by suggesting a student would 'risk expulsion' for such behaviour - which betrays how out of touch the editorial writer is with modern-day classrooms. They clearly are not aware of the painstaking i-dotting and t-crossing nature of expulsion of students when it happens, where even the most egregious, dangerous and anti-social behaviour is defended by loving parents even to the point of legal advice.)

Peter Flynt

That post from r3nu4l probably came from ASTI Head Office.

seavill

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Have you anything to say which doesn't involve an attack on one person - Andrew Phelan?

Seriously - Grow up.

Teaching needs more Andrew Phelans.

In fairness they are entitled to their opinion, as are you and again in fairness to the poster they took the time to write a proper response not just a little snide one line comment that people trolling usually do.

I don't think that type of response helps your point of view

roshje

Peter Flynt wrote: »

Have you anything to say which doesn't involve an attack on one person - Andrew Phelan?

Seriously - Grow up.

Teaching needs more Andrew Phelans.

HuH!!!!

evolving_doors

Mod Warning; Keep it civil folks.
Argue the point ...
Read the charter etc.

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