Scottish Independence discussion area

Iwasfrozen

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Scotland is a country, it is in a union with another country that is obviously unequal therefore a decision is to be made if Scotland would like self-determination

Scotland is a region of a country.

A Dub in Glasgo

Like Ireland was a region of a country?

Its Only Ray Parlour

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scotland is a region of a country.

No, Scotland is a country. The UK is a sovereign state.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scotland is a region of a country.

Oh Dear :eek::pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

LiveIsLife wrote: »

Well Salmond has claimed the English side wouldn't let Devo Max be on the ballot paper when the referendum was proposed a couple of years ago. So they presumably just assumed a vote on independence would fail but Devo Max might pass. Which makes their current offers of more devolution look more ridiculous

They (UK Government) were patting themselves on the back that they thwarted 'Salmond's consolation prize'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10224305/Dont-give-Salmond-the-consolation-prize-he-craves.html

Kermit.de.frog

Its Only Ray Parlour wrote: »

No, Scotland is a country. The UK is a sovereign state.

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom as the UK is a sovereign country. That is how I see it. Same with Wales and the North.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom as the UK is a sovereign country. That is how I see it. Same with Wales and the North.

You can see it how you like but you are wrong Scotland is a country in its own right

LordSutch

I suspect that you're both correct.

EunanMac

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scotland is a region of a country.

It's the united kingdom, not untied region

Were Ireland, India, etc. etc. regions or countries before independence ?

Kermit.de.frog

EunanMac wrote: »

It's the united kingdom, not untied region

Was Ireland a region or a country before independence ?

Region in Ireland's case as part of UK. It's a simple fact that London is the sovereign parliament of the UK and Scotland has a regional parliament. It's a region, not a country. That could change in 10 days though.

EunanMac

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Region. It's a simple fact that London is the sovereign parliament of the UK and Scotland has a regional parliament. It's a region, not a country. That could change in 10 days though.

What was india etc. ?

LiveIsLife

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The English side?

It isn't rugby.

The crowd in London then

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Region in Ireland's case as part of UK. It's a simple fact that London is the sovereign parliament of the UK and Scotland has a regional parliament. It's a region, not a country. That could change in 10 days though.

It is a country in a union with England. I suggest you have a wee read of the act of union might put you straight

Kermit.de.frog

EunanMac wrote: »

What was india etc. ?

Colony I guess. India was not part of the UK. It was part of the commonwealth.

A Dub in Glasgo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Region in Ireland's case as part of UK. It's a simple fact that London is the sovereign parliament of the UK and Scotland has a regional parliament. It's a region, not a country. That could change in 10 days though.

You can be a country and not have sovereign status, feck me this is inter cert stuff

EunanMac

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Colony I guess. India was not part of the UK. It was part of the commonwealth.

I suggest you drop down to ordinary level trolling for the leaving cert.

oppenheimer1

Paramite Pie wrote: »

The United Kingdom of Great Britain And Ireland was only created in 1801 when Ireland joined (and it's name changed when we left), prior to that the Kingdom of Great Britain was the term used to describe the older 1707 Union of Scotland & England. So if Scotland stayed and NI left, it would no longer be the United Kingdom as that term was created when Ireland joined.

The format would still be the United Kingdom of _____ & Northern Ireland. What the 'blank' would be... I cannae say. The naming dispute between Ireland and the NI/UK was never resolved, so it's likely there will be no agreed outcome.

The naming dispute between Ireland and the UK was resolved with the Good Friday agreement if I recall correctly

A Dub in Glasgo

Moving on from inter cert geography, have a look at this nugget from the No campaign

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnAeASoPigM

Red Nissan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom as the UK is a sovereign country. That is how I see it. Same with Wales and the North.

Scotland was an independent country with her own Royalty. She joined with Britain and Ireland and Wales in the act of Union to form the UK.

Ireland was invaded and planted, the North [as in the North] never was a separate country though an Ulster Kingdom did exist and later under one Irish Kingdom [United Ireland if one wills].

Ireland and later the North [especially the North] never did have a real say in entering the UK ~ Scotland and Wales did.

Some historians suggest that England and Wales should have joined Scotland.

Kermit.de.frog

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You can be a country and not have sovereign status, feck me this is inter cert stuff

I don't think so. Can you show me an example of a country without sovereign status? That is nonsense to me. Others may think differently but a country to me is sovereign and that's it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Red Nissan wrote: »

Scotland was an independent country with her own Royalty. She joined with Britain and Ireland and Wales in the act of Union to form the UK.

You mean England?

A Dub in Glasgo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Can you show me an example of a country without sovereign status?

Scotland

KERSPLAT!

MOD

Folks, if you think someone is trolling, please report them. Calling them out on thread is itself a breach of the charter, thanks

-KERSPLAT!

BonnieSituation

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I don't think so. Can you show me an example of a country without sovereign status? That is nonsense to me. Others may think differently but a country to me is sovereign and that's it.

Scotland, England, Catalonia, Euskara, Galicia, Quebec, Aland, South Ossetia, Transnistria... And on and on it goes.

Nationhood and Sovereignty are two similar concepts but not the same thing. If you can't grasp that then why are you in here talking about Scottish independence?

Kermit.de.frog

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Scotland

Well I disagree. I don't mean to hurt your sensibilities but to me a "country" is the sovereign entity. I understand you have a different view. Fine.

Red Nissan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Well I disagree. I don't mean to hurt your sensibilities but to me a "country" is the sovereign entity. I understand you have a different view. Fine.

A sovereign is a ruler of a nation, a King or Queen or a Royal succession is the sovereignty. Such a system is usually held together by force of arms and a degree of tyranny.

A sovereign may have a parliament whom they can command or they may be subject to, whilst being a figure head. In this case the government claims to be a sovereign state and power resides in elections.

A country may overthrow their Royalty and proclaim themselves a sovereign country [as they have seized it from the King/Queen in revolt] and they may then elect a President with or without Sovereign Powers, Obama in the USA is a Sovereign [pretending to be subject to parliament], Queen Elizabeth is a Sovereign who IS subject to HER Parliament [who then pretend that she is sovereign].

Mal-Adjusted

Can we shelve the discussion on weather Scotland is or isn't a real country? people are becoming entrenched and it really adds nothing. Also, it could be a moot point in ten days anyway...

W1ll1s

If they go Yes,the shock-waves will reverberate for years...

LordSutch

If there is a Yes vote it will be one of the most momentous events in the hstory of these islands. It really would be a massive event if Scotlasnd actually left the UK, and I'm not sure that people fully understand the enormity of an exit, or the implications for Scotland & whats left of the UK.

From the armed forces to the NHS, to the stability of NI, to the UKs place on the world stage, to an independent scotlands economic threat to the ROI. Then there's Camerons position as PM (of the remainder of the UK) which would be seriously called into question!

Scotlands exit might also spur other regions/countries in europe to consider seperation too, which wouldn't be too popular in Spain & Italy for example.

Hopefully Scotland will stay in the Union with the offer of 'Devo Max' saving the day. Devo Max really should have been on the ballot paper IMO.

Iwasfrozen

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom with a regional assembly.

India, Burma etc. Were colonies as they were never formally part of the UK.

GaelMise

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Scotland is a region of the United Kingdom with a regional assembly.

India, Burma etc. Were colonies as they were never formally part of the UK.

Its a Parliament actually.

feargale

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Well I disagree. I don't mean to hurt your sensibilities but to me a "country" is the sovereign entity. I understand you have a different view. Fine.

What was India before 1948? Egypt in the 19th century? "The Kingdom of Ireland" in the 18th century?

A Dub in Glasgo

LordSutch wrote: »

with the offer of 'Devo Max' saving the day. Devo Max really should have been on the ballot paper IMO.

Hmmm, taking Salmond's consolation prize away was too big a trophy for the UK Government / BT / NT / UKOK

Only Cameron to blame for that one

This hand has been played before and there is nothing to suggest Devo Max will happen

Iwasfrozen

feargale wrote: »

What was India before 1948? Egypt in the 19th century? "The Kingdom of Ireland" in the 18th century?

Colony, colony and kingdom/region.

Dublin Red Devil

Pro Independence camp is now ahead in latest polls. The Sterling took its largest one day fall in years over market fears Scotland will vote for independence

Iwasfrozen

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

Pro Independence camp is now ahead in latest polls. The Sterling took its largest one day fall in years over market fears Scotland will vote for independence

A separate poll by the Yes Scotland campaign put the pro-union vote ahead by 4 points.

GaelMise

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A separate poll by the Yes Scotland campaign put the pro-union vote ahead by 4 points.

All to play for in the last few days so, who would have thought it only a couple of months ago?

Iwasfrozen

GaelMise wrote: »

All to play for in the last few days so, who would have thought it only a couple of months ago?

Heck even a month ago the pro-union side were up by 20 points.

Donkey Oaty

The Scots are basically the Kurds of the UK/EU , except they speak the same language as their neighbours and don't have a proverb that says "We have no friends but the mountains", and there isn't a Kurdish equivalent of the McDonald's product "Spicy McHaggis" which inspired a song by Dropkick Murphys who are actually American but identify with Ireland and we all get along so well and so can a newly independent Scotland, but it's not as simple as that.

I write that as a warning.

In the days ahead, look out for similar drivel appearing in an op-ed newspaper column near you.

GaelMise

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Heck even a month ago the pro-union side were up by 20 points.

It seems that in the period where people really start to make up their minds, the pro-union lead turned out to be fairly soft.

Iwasfrozen

GaelMise wrote: »

It seems that in the period where people really start to make up their minds, the pro-union lead turned out to be fairly soft.

Yeah I would agree with that. It seems the yes side did a better job of convincing the "don't knows" than the no side.

LiveIsLife

LordSutch wrote: »

If there is a Yes vote it will be one of the most momentous events in the hstory of these islands. It really would be a massive event if Scotlasnd actually left the UK, and I'm not sure that people fully understand the enormity of an exit, or the implications for Scotland & whats left of the UK.

From the armed forces to the NHS, to the stability of NI, to the UKs place on the world stage, to an independent scotlands economic threat to the ROI. Then there's Camerons position as PM (of the remainder of the UK) which would be seriously called into question!

Scotlands exit might also spur other regions/countries in europe to consider seperation too, which wouldn't be too popular in Spain & Italy for example.

Hopefully Scotland will stay in the Union with the offer of 'Devo Max' saving the day. Devo Max really should have been on the ballot paper IMO.

Yep it's amazing to think we could be living through the breakup of the UK, something nobody would really have thought possible even a few years ago. Now it looks a distinct possibility

GaelMise

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah I would agree with that. It seems the yes side did a better job of convincing the "don't knows" than the no side.

Would still be failry surprised if they vote for independance on the day though. The union was kept together in the mind for a long time by a feeling of 'it can't be done, it'll never happen'. Scots are beginning to realise that they really can put an end to the union if they want to, which is still a bit surreal for many. Having come to it though, it still remains to be seen if they are able to take the last step.

Dyr

See the royals have lined up a new sprogg in response to the crisis, can't fault them for effort

A Dub in Glasgo

More comedy gold from https://twitter.com/AngrySalmond

Fratton Fred

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah I would agree with that. It seems the yes side did a better job of convincing the "don't knows" than the no side.

Or maybe people are thinking "if we say yes in the polls, we'll get promised more and more, even though we will vote no". They'd be daft not to in fairness.

Iwasfrozen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or maybe people are thinking "if we say yes in the polls, we'll get promised more and more, even though we will vote no". They'd be daft not to in fairness.

People as a group aren't that logical.

GaelMise wrote:

Would still be failry surprised if they vote for independance on the day though. The union was kept together in the mind for a long time by a feeling of 'it can't be done, it'll never happen'. Scots are beginning to realise that they really can put an end to the union if they want to, which is still a bit surreal for many. Having come to it though, it still remains to be seen if they are able to take the last step.

Same. I think on the day most will vote to keep the union.

LiveIsLife

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or maybe people are thinking "if we say yes in the polls, we'll get promised more and more, even though we will vote no". They'd be daft not to in fairness.

Jesus that is some level of grasping

A Dub in Glasgo

The BBC has shed it's veneer of public service broadcasting

A Dub in Glasgo

LiveIsLife wrote: »

Jesus that is some level of grasping

I presumed he was extracting the urine