Scottish Independence discussion area

EunanMac

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

In fact, he has already been compared to Hitler by two Labour MPs, and he has also been compared to Slobodan Milosevic, King Jong-Il, Genghis Khan, Nero, Stalin and Nicolae Ceausescu.

Perceptive blog post about it here.

Dictator bingo ! - I love it, shows you are desperate and bereft of arguments the no side are when they are resorting to such ad hominems

Dozen Wicked Words

EunanMac wrote: »

Dictator bingo ! - I love it, shows you are desperate and bereft of arguments the no side are when they are resorting to such ad hominems

The article is over 2 years old, think it shows their bitterness at losing control in Scotland rather than desperation in this current debate (though they probably are)

I am pie

Has anyone on the No side ever stopped to wonder why so many Scots want out of the Union? Not sure they'd be sending up a few old etonians and making misty eyed references to cricket and the marvellous cultural melting pot the collapse of an empire left them with?

Nice to know that if Scotland left monarchy and the Union behind that multi culturalism would be done and dusted? Precisely what difference does the Queen and a London parliament make there? Scots will suddenly become xenophobic without the benefit of an empire that most of it's former constituents fought for freedom from? Not sure that really holds much water does it...

A Dub in Glasgo

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Ah, what are the differences between the two then?

This talks about Devo Max as

'Devo-max is simply the maximum form of devolution short of
independence. What does this mean exactly, well, it goes something like
this: ‘the Scottish Parliament and Government would take on more responsibility for domestic matters and for raising, collecting and
administering all (or the vast majority of) revenues in Scotland and the
vast bulk of public spending. The UK Government and institutions would
continue to have responsibility for matters such as macroeconomic policy
and defence, but the Scottish Parliament and Government would have a
greater range of measures available to them to support sustainable
economic growth’'

The powers Brown outlined in his publically funded referendum broadcast last night is taken from Labour's proposals from March this year which falls well short of the above and is the weakest proposal of the 3 Unionist parties

http://www.scottishlabour.org.uk/campaigns/entry/devolution-commission

A Dub in Glasgo

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

And he has also been compared to Beyoncé by SNP deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon.

He has a great twitter account here

Fratton Fred

I am pie wrote: »

Has anyone on the No side ever stopped to wonder why so many Scots want out of the Union? Not sure they'd be sending up a few old etonians and making misty eyed references to cricket and the marvellous cultural melting pot the collapse of an empire left them with?

Nice to know that if Scotland left monarchy and the Union behind that multi culturalism would be done and dusted? Precisely what difference does the Queen and a London parliament make there? Scots will suddenly become xenophobic without the benefit of an empire that most of it's former constituents fought for freedom from? Not sure that really holds much water does it...

The original question is valid and one that the no side need to address.

The rest of your post just shows your own ignorance.

I am pie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The original question is valid and one that the no side need to address.

The rest of your post just shows your own ignorance.

I am not ignorant enough to make assumptions about people on the internet, nor make blythe remarks about questions I can't answer after waffling on about the glories of the empire and making comically twee spurious, connections between multi culturalism and god knows what.

If my post is your interpretation of ignorance, ignorant I will remain and happily so.

twinytwo

have not read through the thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before...

There are serious issues for scotland if they achieve independence.

For example:

I would assume that they would have to reapply to join the EU which WILL be vetoed by Spain.

They will have to start a currency from scatch.. england wont let them use the pound, they cant use the euro.

As they are not part of the eu the free travel, i assume dosent apply.. (unless they let it) which would be bad for businesses.

Donkey Oaty

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

He has a great twitter account here

With more followers than the official Scottish Labour one!

Kermit.de.frog

FREEEEEEEDOM!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIkLG9q7Kuw

Fratton Fred

I am pie wrote: »

I am not ignorant enough to make assumptions about people on the internet, nor make blythe remarks about questions I can't answer after waffling on about the glories of the empire and making comically twee spurious, connections between multi culturalism and god knows what.

If my post is your interpretation of ignorance, ignorant I will remain and happily so.

Showing your ignorance again I'm afraid.

I am pie

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Showing your ignorance again I'm afraid.

I don't even think you understand or have noticed the ludicrous nature of your own vacuous insinuations.

How entertaining.

"I'm afraid". Chortle.

Donkey Oaty

BBC Radio 4's 7 o'clock news leading with the (total non-story) that "the Queen will not intervene" in the independence vote.

Now, "Queen commands Scottish subjects to vote No" would have been worthy of comment.

EunanMac

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

BBC Radio 4's 7 o'clock news leading with the (total non-story) that "the Queen will not intervene" in the independence vote.

Now, "Queen commands Scottish subjects to vote No" would have been worthy of comment.

I'd say the no side tried to rope in her in a last desperate attempt

Fratton Fred

Sigh.

For starters, stop equating multiculturalism with empire, the two don't equate. Similarly, don't equate enjoying a multi cultural society with harping on about the glories of empire. Ask FTA69, I'm pretty sure he isn't an empire apologist.

SEPT 23 1989

poor auld Welsh are terrified of being left alone at home with daddy

Donkey Oaty

EunanMac wrote: »

I'd say the no side tried to rope in her in a last desperate attempt

Specifically it was some Conservative MPs, according to earlier reports - if this is true, it will come back to haunt them at some stage, because that is a complete no-no be ye republican or monarchist.

The_Valeyard

Wow
Sky News is really ramping up the fear factor today

Kermit.de.frog

Scotland must be shelled mercilessly if they vote to leave the realm.

Nodin

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

BBC Radio 4's 7 o'clock news leading with the (total non-story) that "the Queen will not intervene" in the independence vote.

Now, "Queen commands Scottish subjects to vote No" would have been worthy of comment.

Fairly sure it would be illegal for her to comment, due to the Cantremember Act.

Nodin

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Scotland must be shelled mercilessly if they vote to leave the realm.

Shelled with praise, good wishes and drink.

EunanMac

Maybe the no side could get the Hewittt boy to say a few words ?
He could wear his Nazi outfit

Madam

Nodin wrote: »

Shelled with praise, good wishes and drink.

And loads of it!

porsche959

twinytwo wrote: »

They will have to start a currency from scatch.. england wont let them use the pound, they cant use the euro.

The currency issue is a complete red herring put about by people who don't understand economics.

After 1922 Saorstát £ was pegged at 1:1 with sterling, we didn't need or ask permission of Bank of England. Iceland tracked the euro, similarly didn't need permission of ECB.

porsche959

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Specifically it was some Conservative MPs, according to earlier reports - if this is true, it will come back to haunt them at some stage, because that is a complete no-no be ye republican or monarchist.

To be fair a Labour MP is recording as urging that she intervene, while two traditionalist Conservatives said it would be wrong for monarch to make any comment.

fiachr_a

What internet extension will they use? All the s ones have been taken by other countries.

FloatingVoter

fiachr_a wrote: »

What internet extension will they use? All the s ones have been taken by other countries.

.co.uk.

Mark my words. Unless the actual vote is held exclusively in pubs after 10 PM, Scotland stays in.
When I see a statistician on TV telling me about the latest poll, I see an uncooked burger going to waste.

Donkey Oaty

porsche959 wrote: »

To be fair a Labour MP is recording as urging that she intervene, while two traditionalist Conservatives said it would be wrong for monarch to make any comment.

Yes, you are right there - it seems as though Labour MP Simon Danczuk is the only one who has gone on record, and there are plenty who are saying it would be improper.

The original reports I saw were about pressure on Cameron from members of his own party - all unnamed - however, the consensus now seems to be that it is "MPs from all sides".

Regardless, it looks like an act of real desperation.

namloc1980

fiachr_a wrote: »

What internet extension will they use? All the s ones have been taken by other countries.

.scot

blackwave

twinytwo wrote: »

have not read through the thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before...

There are serious issues for scotland if they achieve independence.

For example:

I would assume that they would have to reapply to join the EU which WILL be vetoed by Spain.

They will have to start a currency from scatch.. england wont let them use the pound, they cant use the euro.

As they are not part of the eu the free travel, i assume dosent apply.. (unless they let it) which would be bad for businesses.

Re: Currency. Montenegro currently uses the Euro even though they are not members of the EU currently nor do they mint the Euro there either. So it is possible that Scotland could do something similar.

porsche959

blackwave wrote: »

Re: Currency. Montenegro currently uses the Euro even though they are not members of the EU currently nor do they mint the Euro there either. So it is possible that Scotland could do something similar.

Indeed, currency issue is red herring. How can one country stop another from tracking its currency, it's basically impossible. There are many small countries whose currencies are basically proxies for the US dollar, including some that do not have particularly friendly diplomatic relations with the US.

Fratton Fred

porsche959 wrote: »

Indeed, currency issue is red herring. How can one country stop another from tracking its currency, it's basically impossible. There are many small countries whose currencies are basically proxies for the US dollar, including some that do not have particularly friendly diplomatic relations with the US.

Tracking and using are, I believe, different things. Either way, monetary policy will still be set by the bank of England.

EunanMac

FloatingVoter wrote: »

.co.uk.

Mark my words. Unless the actual vote is held exclusively in pubs after 10 PM, Scotland stays in.
When I see a statistician on TV telling me about the latest poll, I see an uncooked burger going to waste.

We'll not see you here on the 19th so. But I'll post this again to remind you.

eeepaulo

porsche959 wrote: »

Indeed, currency issue is red herring. How can one country stop another from tracking its currency, it's basically impossible. There are many small countries whose currencies are basically proxies for the US dollar, including some that do not have particularly friendly diplomatic relations with the US.

I believe it is more to do with setting interest rates and money printing, of course they can use sterling, they will simply have no control over it.

porsche959

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Tracking and using are, I believe, different things.

Complete semantics, Jesuitical hair-splitting.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Either way, monetary policy will still be set by the bank of England.

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Why are some on No side trying to put it about that Scotland would have to adopt own currency if there is a Yes vote?

fiachr_a

The real worry for an independent Scotland is they'll have to enter the Eurovision song contest.

GLaDOS

twinytwo wrote: »

I would assume that they would have to reapply to join the EU which WILL be vetoed by Spain.

Showing my ignorance, and probably missing something obvious, but why would Spain veto it?

porsche959

eeepaulo wrote: »

I believe it is more to do with setting interest rates and money printing, of course they can use sterling, they will simply have no control over it.

"they will simply have no control over it"

Which is no change from current position - so what's all the scaremongering from No side about then?

Iwasfrozen

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Showing my ignorance, and probably missing something obvious, but why would Spain veto it?

They don't want to set a precedence when their own regions look for independence. The Italians would be thinking along similar lines.

Donkey Oaty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Either way, monetary policy will still be set by the bank of England.

And that means that it will be an Irishman in charge. Way hey!

Iwasfrozen

porsche959 wrote: »

"they will simply have no control over it"

Which is no change from current position - so what's all the scaremongering from No side about then?

If an independent Scotland uses the pound Sterling without entering into a formal currency agreement with the UK then they will be unable to borrow money and will have to run a surplus on every budget. That's not scaremongering.

Billy86

George Galloway's hat.

That is all.

barney4001

ld not keep their noses out of it could they

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/Orange-Order-to-march-to-stop-Scottish-independence-from-UK.html

Red Nissan

barney4001 wrote: »

they could not keep their noses out of it could they=1

Sorry, can't read that, first sentence put me off.

porsche959

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If an independent Scotland uses the pound Sterling without entering into a formal trade agreement with the UK then they will be unable to borrow money and will have to run a surplus on every budget. That's not scaremongering.

It is scaremongering, because the hypothetical chain of events you've set out here is entirely implausible.

The western world survived and bounced back from a banking crisis in 2008/2009 that almost ruined us. These issues are utterly trivial in comparison and can be easily sorted with sensible negotiation.

eeepaulo

porsche959 wrote: »

"they will simply have no control over it"

Which is no change from current position - so what's all the scaremongering from No side about then?

But at the moment it is one economy, this will split it into two economies, similar to irelands position with germany, we have an interest rate of 0.05 or whatever it is, that is not for us, that is for the larger EU nations.

Pensions, mortgages?

Im sure they will sort all this stuff out, if there is a yes vote, but to suggest it is a red herring? Scaremongering?

I actually dont really care, if more than 50% wish to be independent of the uk, good luck.

Donkey Oaty

There's all kinds of weird legal stuff that is without precedent in this scenario.

I was reading an article earlier that said that there is a legal technicality under which Alex Salmond, as leader of an independent Scotland, is entitled to declare that Eng/Wales/NI is a new state as well and that would mean the UK loses its seat on the UN Security Council - and he could use that threat as a negotiating chip.

Sounds like nonsense to me, but the law is an odd beast and stranger things have happened.

Red Nissan

Scotland will do alright, might slip backwards a wee bit, but it's England who will suffer the most, no matter how close the relations and neighbourliness that may exist after the yes vote.

I never like simple yes, no votes, people will always vote the wrong way anyway, I'd say there would be a lot of people who'd like to think on a bit more like, there should be a Come Back In Ten Years and ask again box.

Fratton Fred

porsche959 wrote: »

Complete semantics, Jesuitical hair-splitting.

Jesuitical. That is now my favourite word.

porsche959 wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting otherwise. Why are some on No side trying to put it about that Scotland would have to adopt own currency if there is a Yes vote?

I know, I was trying to confirm your point.

I didn't realise anyone on the no side had said that, only that the currency union was ruled out.

Fratton Fred

Red Nissan wrote: »

Scotland will do alright, might slip backwards a wee bit, but it's England who will suffer the most, no matter how close the relations and neighbourliness that may exist after the yes vote.

I never like simple yes, no votes, people will always vote the wrong way anyway, I'd say there would be a lot of people who'd like to think on a bit more like, there should be a Come Back In Ten Years and ask again box.

Why will England suffer the most?