Scottish Independence discussion area

dubscottie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Not true, the Scottish Government asked the European Commission for the legal position. The EC said they cannot give that to the SG and they could only give it to the UK Government. The SG asked the UK Government to ask the EC for the legal position. The UK Government refused. So rather than clarity, we get speculation

Source? Not from the SNP or Yes campaign please.

kingchess

the whole ethos of the EU is expansion,they are not in the business of removing the rights of people who are citizens of Europe for several decades,compromise is what the makes EU function,eg the sharing of fishing grounds off Scotland etc..,common sense will prevail as the EU needs Scotland.

eeepaulo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Not true, the Scottish Government asked the European Commission for the legal position. The EC said they cannot give that to the SG and they could only give it to the UK Government. The SG asked the UK Government to ask the EC for the legal position. The UK Government refused. So rather than clarity, we get speculation

Link

A Dub in Glasgo

First Up wrote: »

What you get is uncertainty. And uncertainty kills it.
It will fall on a range of issues. The emotional bally hoo takes it a certain distance but heads eventually rule and heads will make it a clear no.

Uncertainty encouraged by the UK Government

dubscottie

kingchess wrote: »

the whole ethos of the EU is expansion,they are not in the business of removing the rights of people who are citizens of Europe for several decades,compromise is what the makes EU function,eg the sharing of fishing grounds off Scotland etc..,common sense will prevail as the EU needs Scotland.

The EU are not going to take on a unproven state.

Look at the Eastern block or Turkey. They have had to (or are still trying to) prove themselves.

Scotland will need to prove it is worthy of EU membership. It could take years.

Alex Salmond can blackmail the UK government but does not have a hope in hell of blackmailing the EU..

Scotland needs the EU. The EU does not need Scotland.

kingchess

some of the european have big fishing fleets

dubscottie

@ A Dub in Glasgo

Anytime in the next week.. Where is the proof that you claim exists, regards EU membership..

I am waiting..

A Dub in Glasgo

dubscottie wrote: »

I would vote no so I have a vendetta???

Your vendetta is your postings here. You seem very angry at Scotland

I have seen my home town destroyed and turned into a ****hole by the scottish parliament.

What town?

My Auntie was supposed to retire but still has to work as the Scottish government said she could only get half her pension.

Without knowing the details, are you sure this was not Brown/Blair raid on the pensions?

I have had friends crippled by having to travel 25 miles to get an out patient appointment in a hospital when one was closed 4 miles up the road.

Which hospital?

I have had friends told to "**** off home" in the last few weeks cause they are from England (or sound English)

Terrible if that is the case although I have not seen it

So you can understand why I don't want things to go further.

No, I cannot see why you want Scotland to fail

eeepaulo

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/policy/conditions-membership/index_en.htm

that seems to be the criteria,

im not sure how the eu would judge scotlands entry at this point, (true for ruk too)

- hi we want to be in the eu

- ok, what currency do you use

- tba

-ok, so how about debt

-tba

-ok, whats your gdp and gnp?

-tba

-ok, large companies?

-tba

A Dub in Glasgo

eeepaulo wrote: »

Link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20164826

dubscottie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Your vendetta is your postings here. You seem very angry at Scotland



What town?



Without knowing the details, are you sure this was not Brown/Blair raid on the pensions?



Which hospital?



Terrible if that is the case although I have not seen it



No, I cannot see why you want Scotland to fail

Fife.. Not rocket science to workout which one.

Auntie was/is a teaches in a college. 68 now. has no choice due to the devolved parliament.

A Dub in Glasgo

dubscottie wrote: »

@ A Dub in Glasgo

Anytime in the next week.. Where is the proof that you claim exists, regards EU membership..

I am waiting..

You are asking me proof to disprove your assertion? I cannot, I have asked you to prove your assertion, you cannot. It is usual for a person who states something to back it up which you have failed to do

eeepaulo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20164826

It would be good if the eu did accept scotland, i read something that said they could be fast tracked, but its not anyones fault

A Dub in Glasgo

dubscottie wrote: »

Fife.. Not rocket science to workout which one.

Auntie was/is a teaches in a college. 68 now. has no choice due to the devolved parliament.

Sounds like your beef is with Brown in more ways than one. I seen him today in Glasgow being cheered by the No side

dubscottie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-20164826

From 2012… its 2014. The SNP have had 2 years to ask someone in the EU!

But no.. Unless they were told something that they do not want published!

Spring Onion

To get an unlikely victory during a referendum election, the trick is to peak right at the end, 2 or 3 days before the voting.

Hitting the majority in the polls just before the election often strengthens the majority because it brings favourable people out who previously thought voting that way was futile.

However the Yes majority poll has peaked too soon. Over a week too soon. It has given time for the No campaign to kickstart themselves and use the big fear tactics in their propaganda/spin, the key one being the future economy. Its always boils down to confidence in the economics for any election really.

It is inevitable now that the No voters will win out. My prediction is 55/45. Pity.

A Dub in Glasgo

dubscottie wrote: »

From 2012… its 2014. The SNP have had 2 years to ask someone in the EU!

But no.. Unless they were told something that they do not want published!

I am not sure if you even read it but

'The UK government has said it would not ask the European Commission's view on whether an independent Scotland would remain a member of the EU.

The statement follows confirmation from the commission that it would offer its opinion if asked to by a member state.'

means they will not answer the Scottish Government. They asked, the EC refused

cj maxx

eeepaulo wrote: »

It would be good if the eu did accept scotland, i read something that said they could be fast tracked, but its not anyones fault

Is scotland not a defacto member of the eu ?
It is now so (as part of uk so no technicalities ) so does a change of goverment invalidate membership ? I think eu membership is a given
Sterling is the big problem

dubscottie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I am not sure if you even read it but

'The UK government has said it would not ask the European Commission's view on whether an independent Scotland would remain a member of the EU.

The statement follows confirmation from the commission that it would offer its opinion if asked to by a member state.'

means they will not answer the Scottish Government. They asked, the EC refused

Just checking you understand..

If they won't answer your question, what chance have you of EU membership?

eeepaulo

cjmc wrote: »

Is scotland not a defacto member of the eu ?
It is now so (as part of uk so no technicalities ) so does a change of goverment invalidate membership ? I think eu membership is a given
Sterling is the big problem

I dont know, no one is saying.

https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu/articles/news/fast-tracked-eu-membership-scots-could-be-achieved-spring-2016

A Dub in Glasgo

dubscottie wrote: »

Just checking you understand..

If they won't answer your question, what chance have you of EU membership?

Maybe you missed this bit

'The statement follows confirmation from the commission that it would offer its opinion if asked to by a member state'

Scotland is not a member state therefore the EC will not answer. The UK is a member state and was asked to seek the EC opinion, the UK refused.

If the UK refused to ask, what does that tell you?

cj maxx

If the UK refused to ask, what does that tell you?[/quote]

What does it ? Honestly ?

dubscottie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Maybe you missed this bit

'The statement follows confirmation from the commission that it would offer its opinion if asked to by a member state'

Scotland is not a member state therefore the EC will not answer. The UK is a member state and was asked to seek the EC opinion, the UK refused.

If the UK refused to ask, what does that tell you?

Scotland is not a member state.. you have said it yourself..

So Scotland will need to apply for EU membership which takes years and years..

A Dub in Glasgo

dubscottie wrote: »

Scotland is not a member state.. you have said it yourself..

So Scotland will need to apply for EU membership which takes years and years..

So you think the rest of the UK is a member state?

A Dub in Glasgo

cjmc wrote: »

What does it ? Honestly ?

I don't know, it was a question to dubsciottie who seems to state that because the EC will not tell the Scottish Government the status it means Scotland if voted Yes would be chucked out of the EU

eeepaulo

I dont know where this is going?

Is, isnt?

I do not believe either of you acutally have anymore idea than i do, 0

1 week to go

So can anyone guess what we will hear discussed over the next week,

Should be a lot of content, surely the people deserve it

Harry Palmr

Scotland won't be chucked out of something its not in.

Richard

eeepaulo wrote: »

England, Northern Ireland and Wales as a union havent either, can they keep the uk name?

EWNI will probably still be UK and will be the "successor state" in international law so takes with it UK membership of the EU, UN, NATO etc. Scotland would be a member of none of these although joining some (such as the UN) would be trivial.

A Dub in Glasgo

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Scotland won't be chucked out of something its not in.

England, Wales & NI won't be chucked out of something its not in... is that right?

Richard

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

So you think the rest of the UK is a member state?

The UK is a member state and the continuing UK will remain a member state. Scotland is potentially leaving, it is the one voting for independence.

A Dub in Glasgo

Richard wrote: »

The UK is a member state and the continuing UK will remain a member state. Scotland is potentially leaving, it is the one voting for independence.

UK member state - correct
rUk member state - speculation
Scotland member state - speculation

This speculation could have been clarified by the UK Government but they refused a request to ask for that clarification

SaveOurLyric

dubscottie wrote: »

Just checking you understand..

If they won't answer your question, what chance have you of EU membership?

Better than if they answer your question. If they do, you are a member state so becoming a member is impossible. If they dont answer, then you are not a member, so becoming one is at least theoretically possible.

dubscottie

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I don't know, it was a question to dubsciottie who seems to state that because the EC will not tell the Scottish Government the status it means Scotland if voted Yes would be chucked out of the EU

The UK is the same..

Scotland plans to leave.

So the UK becomes the UK - Scotland..

The only way Scotland could stay in the EU is to ask for the same status as Gibraltar..

dubscottie

Anyone got a link to the debate on the BBC? Got a short version.. Looking for the full one

donegaLroad

sorry if this has been posted before, I couldn't be bothered trawling through 82 pages to see if it has. Some very good points in here I think:::


Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%

But Scotland has...

32% of the land area.
61% of the sea area.
90% of the fresh water.
65% of the natural gas production.
96.5% of the crude oil production.
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% if the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
...obviously 100% of the Scotch Whiskey industry.

Scotland has a...

17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
A 9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aeroservice industry
4.5 billion pound whiskey exports industry
3.1 billion pound life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports

Scotland has 25% of Europes wave and wind energy potential.

And finally Scotland is blessed to have 1.5 trillion pound worth of oil and gas reserves.

All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population... Scotland should be rich!

IGNORANCE...
If you hear anyone saying "I DONT LIKE ALEX SALMOND" or "I DONT LIKE SNP"...
THIS VOTE IS ABOUT SCOTLAND'S RIGHT TO ELECT ITS OWN GOVERNMENT... IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ALEX SALMOND OR THE SNP.
DONT LET POLITICAL IGNORANCE RUIN THIS OPPORTUNITY.

Do you know... This is the UK's legacy of success in their history of being better-together is as follows...

The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world

The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union

The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world

The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU

The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU

The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries

The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU

The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe

The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe

The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.

The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality in the entire planet!

But surely these awful figures cannot be possible when you read the following Scottish statistics...


FACTS:
Fact: Scotland has an oil boom waiting to happen on the West Coast, but Michael Hesaltine signed a cessation of any form of oil exploration in the entire area in the 80's to make way for nuclear submarines which Scotland doesn't want!

Fact: Scotland has shown its revulsion time and time again to nuclear weapons but they place them here against our countries wishes. A recent contingency report was carried out a out the feasibility of relocating them in Portsmouth. The report stated that it was unfeasible because the detrimental risk to the area of an incident was too high. (Ok for the Clyde though)

Fact: Scotland, with only 1 Tory MP, was forced to take the shocking attack on the poor & disabled called The Bedroom Tax, even though as our nations government, Holyrood voted to utterly reject this awful tax on the poor. Westminster gave us it anyway!

Fact: We are led to believe that the oil in Scotland's waters is finished and its a dying industry. Yet 13.5 billion has been invested by oil companies in the last 2 years alone!

Fact: The Clair Oil Field is about to open, and on its own has over 650 million barrels which will be extracted over 20+ years with production reaching a hundred thousand barrels a day!

Fact: Scotland gives more to Westminster than it gets back. Do you really think they'd be so keen to keep Scotland if they were being subsidised like they'd have us believe?

Fact: Of the 178 countries that have gained their own independence across this planet, not one single one of them has ever asked to reverse this independence, and very few of them have the assets Scotland have.


A yes vote would seem logical.

dubscottie

donegaLroad wrote: »

sorry if this has been posted before, I couldn't be bothered trawling through 82 pages to see if it has. Some very good points in here I think:::


Scotland has only 8.3% of the UK's population. 8.3%! Remember this important figure... 8.3%

But Scotland has...

32% of the land area.
61% of the sea area.
90% of the fresh water.
65% of the natural gas production.
96.5% of the crude oil production.
47% of the open cast coal production
81% of the untapped coal reserves
62% of the timber production
46% of the total forest area
92% of the hydro electric production
40% of the wind wave and solar energy production
60% of the fish landings
30% of the beef herd
20% of the sheep herd
9% of the dairy herd
10% of the pig herd
15% if the cereal holdings
20% of the potato holdings
...obviously 100% of the Scotch Whiskey industry.

Scotland has a...

17 billion pound construction industry
13 billion food and drink industry
10 billion business services industry
9.3 billion chemical services industry
A 9.3 billion tourism industry
7 billion financial services industry
5 billion aeroservice industry
4.5 billion pound whiskey exports industry
3.1 billion pound life sciences industry
Scotland still has 350 million pounds worth of textile exports

Scotland has 25% of Europes wave and wind energy potential.

And finally Scotland is blessed to have 1.5 trillion pound worth of oil and gas reserves.

All of this, yet only 8.3% of The UK's population... Scotland should be rich!

IGNORANCE...
If you hear anyone saying "I DONT LIKE ALEX SALMOND" or "I DONT LIKE SNP"...
THIS VOTE IS ABOUT SCOTLAND'S RIGHT TO ELECT ITS OWN GOVERNMENT... IT HAS NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH ALEX SALMOND OR THE SNP.
DONT LET POLITICAL IGNORANCE RUIN THIS OPPORTUNITY.

Do you know... This is the UK's legacy of success in their history of being better-together is as follows...

The UK has the 3rd lowest pensions in the 34 OECD countries of the world

The UK has the single most expensive childcare in the European Union

The UK has the second lowest-paid economy in the entire developed world

The UK has the 3rd longest working hours in the EU

The UK has the lowest number of holidays in the EU

The UK has the 8th highest gender inequality pay gap out of the EU's 28 countries

The UK has the highest likelihood of poverty in disablement in the EU

The UK has the highest rail prices in Europe

The UK has the second highest housing cost in Europe

The UK has the highest fuel poverty rates in Europe.

The UK is the 4th highest country of wealth inequality in the entire planet!

But surely these awful figures cannot be possible when you read the following Scottish statistics...


FACTS:
Fact: Scotland has an oil boom waiting to happen on the West Coast, but Michael Hesaltine signed a cessation of any form of oil exploration in the entire area in the 80's to make way for nuclear submarines which Scotland doesn't want!

Fact: Scotland has shown its revulsion time and time again to nuclear weapons but they place them here against our countries wishes. A recent contingency report was carried out a out the feasibility of relocating them in Portsmouth. The report stated that it was unfeasible because the detrimental risk to the area of an incident was too high. (Ok for the Clyde though)

Fact: Scotland, with only 1 Tory MP, was forced to take the shocking attack on the poor & disabled called The Bedroom Tax, even though as our nations government, Holyrood voted to utterly reject this awful tax on the poor. Westminster gave us it anyway!

Fact: We are led to believe that the oil in Scotland's waters is finished and its a dying industry. Yet 13.5 billion has been invested by oil companies in the last 2 years alone!

Fact: The Clair Oil Field is about to open, and on its own has over 650 million barrels which will be extracted over 20+ years with production reaching a hundred thousand barrels a day!

Fact: Scotland gives more to Westminster than it gets back. Do you really think they'd be so keen to keep Scotland if they were being subsidised like they'd have us believe?

Fact: Of the 178 countries that have gained their own independence across this planet, not one single one of them has ever asked to reverse this independence, and very few of them have the assets Scotland have.


A yes vote would seem logical.

Give us a source for your "facts" please of I am calling bollox talk!

SharpshooterTom

I'm fascinated so many Irish are taking an active interest in this, I know some posters are living in Scotland right now are obviously are affected but I'm still surprised a lot of Irish people living here are interested nonetheless.

Irish posters are getting a bit heat though from posters on British forums particularly on DigitalSpy, for taking an active interest, "I've noticed a few Irish folk on here lately and the majority aren't or don't seem to be interested in much other than sticking it to the UK. Surely after 80 years you can stop hating the Brits?"

"Can the Irish just please fvck off? Nothing good has ever came from you? Look at Liverpool."

Lol just be careful, I know its ok to take an active interest in Scottish independence but any of you's posting on UK forums need to know you're beginning to upset some of them on there.

Scottie99

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&feature=youtu.be

The 100 English Labour Party MPs arrive only to be met by two lads on rickshaw:D "Empire Strikes Back!"

Piliger

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I don't know, it was a question to dubsciottie who seems to state that because the EC will not tell the Scottish Government the status it means Scotland if voted Yes would be chucked out of the EU

Scotland will be an EU member the minute it becomes independent. All of the scare mongering will evaporate and reality will dawn. After all Scotland is already inside the EU, with the regulatons, legislation and infrastructure all in place. There is no way on this earth that the EU will reject Scotland just because it will not be a part of the UK any more. It is such a nonsensical idea that has arisen solely because Westminster wants to scare the bejeez out of the Scottish and some big EU names wanted to dampen down demands for independence by some other areas of the EU.

Piliger

Richard wrote: »

EWNI will probably still be UK and will be the "successor state" in international law so takes with it UK membership of the EU, UN, NATO etc. Scotland would be a member of none of these although joining some (such as the UN) would be trivial.

Yet there is no such agreement in any part of any of the EU treaties. This issue of successor state has no standing.

efb

Nick Robinson's edit of his questioning of Alex Salmond was pretty shocking

eeepaulo

Piliger wrote: »

Scotland will be an EU member the minute it becomes independent. All of the scare mongering will evaporate and reality will dawn. After all Scotland is already inside the EU, with the regulatons, legislation and infrastructure all in place. There is no way on this earth that the EU will reject Scotland just because it will not be a part of the UK any more. It is such a nonsensical idea that has arisen solely because Westminster wants to scare the bejeez out of the Scottish and some big EU names wanted to dampen down demands for independence by some other areas of the EU.

So on the one hand definitely

Originally Posted by Richard
EWNI will probably still be UK and will be the "successor state" in international law so takes with it UK membership of the EU, UN, NATO etc. Scotland would be a member of none of these although joining some (such as the UN) would be trivial.

Yet there is no such agreement in any part of any of the EU treaties. This issue of successor state has no standing.

On the other not

Or is that just they will just not as a successor state?

donegaLroad

dubscottie wrote: »

Give us a source for your "facts" please of I am calling bollox talk!

which particular fact do you have an issue with? I will find you a source for any one of them, don't ask me for a source for each and every point all at once, for obvious reasons.

miss tickle

Scottie99 wrote: »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&feature=youtu.be

The 100 English Labour Party MPs arrive only to be met by two lads on rickshaw:D "Empire Strikes Back!"

These guys deserve an award, that is the best put down I have ever seen. My husband is Scottish, he'll laugh his ar*e off at this in the morning.:D

dubscottie

Piliger wrote: »

Scotland will be an EU member the minute it becomes independent. All of the scare mongering will evaporate and reality will dawn. After all Scotland is already inside the EU, with the regulatons, legislation and infrastructure all in place. There is no way on this earth that the EU will reject Scotland just because it will not be a part of the UK any more. It is such a nonsensical idea that has arisen solely because Westminster wants to scare the bejeez out of the Scottish and some big EU names wanted to dampen down demands for independence by some other areas of the EU.

This is why I want a yes vote.. To see your theory shot to hell.. Wake up!

Scaremongering again.. Come up with something new folks.. Like answers to questions..

Piliger

dubscottie wrote: »

This is why I want a yes vote.. To see your theory shot to hell.. Wake up!

Scaremongering again.. Come up with something new folks.. Like answers to questions..

Why ? You don't have any answers. The scaremongering is the sole domain of the NO campaign.

dubscottie

Piliger wrote: »

Why ? You don't have any answers. The scaremongering is the sole domain of the NO campaign.

Being real.. I don't need answers. you do however.

And scaremongering is NOT an answer..

But I presume the NO camp, have some grasp of history and pride.

Ask me any question and I will have a reply..

Your call

Piliger

eeepaulo wrote: »

So on the one hand definitely
On the other not

Or is that just they will just not as a successor state?

The truth is that this situation has never been envisaged or planned for or legislated for. Nor has it been written in to the Treaties.
That is not the same as saying no one knows. What is means is that the EU will be faced with a situation it had not envisaged. One of it's members has split into two parts. They will be faced with the question of what to do, and the logical and inevitable response will be to adapt itself and accept the reality, that both parts will remain members. It's not rocket science. The very idea that it will respond by denying membership to a whole country that has been IN th EU for decades is utterly preposterous.

eeepaulo

Piliger wrote: »

The truth is that this situation has never been envisaged or planned for or legislated for. Nor has it been written in to the Treaties.
That is not the same as saying no one knows. What is means is that the EU will be faced with a situation it had not envisaged. One of it's members has split into two parts. They will be faced with the question of what to do, and the logical and inevitable response will be to adapt itself and accept the reality, that both parts will remain members. It's not rocket science. The very idea that it will respond by denying membership to a whole country that has been IN th EU for decades is utterly preposterous.

Well the above answer is reasonable.

The one you posted "Scotland will be an EU member the minute it becomes independent. All of the scare mongering will evaporate and reality will dawn."

Do you want to stand over that?

dubscottie

Piliger wrote: »

The truth is that this situation has never been envisaged or planned for or legislated for. Nor has it been written in to the Treaties.
That is not the same as saying no one knows. What is means is that the EU will be faced with a situation it had not envisaged. One of it's members has split into two parts. They will be faced with the question of what to do, and the logical and inevitable response will be to adapt itself and accept the reality, that both parts will remain members. It's not rocket science. The very idea that it will respond by denying membership to a whole country that has been IN th EU for decades is utterly preposterous.

But the yes camp think it means okdocky for Scotland????