Scottish Independence discussion area

kingchess · 13-09-2014 3:41pm

every Newspaper against the yes crowd,every TV station highlighting the negative,and the vote is still too close to call???it seems a lot of people in Scotland are not buying into the doom and gloom and believe that Scotland can be an independent prosperous Nation.

Wurzelbert · 13-09-2014 3:41pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Scots approached England for the union and were initially turned down, as they were twice previously.

As much as I'm sure you'd like it to be a case of the nasty English subjugating the poor Scots, the fact is, it simply wasn't.

yeah well, as i wrote…

Donkey Oaty · 13-09-2014 3:43pm

First Up wrote: »

It isn't even close. If people are not already sold on the yes argument (despite the solid reasons for "no") then nothing in the next few days is likely to persuade them.

You could say that at almost any time in the campaign though, and the fact is that there has been unexpected (and seemingly unexplained) surge in the Yes vote, despite most of the media, big business and nearly all non-Nationalist politicians campaigning against independence.

I doubt either side is taking anything for granted at this stage.

First Up · 13-09-2014 3:47pm

kingchess wrote: »

every Newspaper against the yes crowd,every TV station highlighting the negative,and the vote is still too close to call???it seems a lot of people in Scotland are not buying into the doom and gloom and believe that Scotland can be an independent prosperous Nation.

The media was pretending the last US election was a "statistical dead heat" when any serious analysis showed it was a walk in the park for Obama. Much the same going on here. It's over - ask the bookies.

smcgiff · 13-09-2014 3:48pm

First Up wrote: »

The don't knows will break at least 75/25 to "no".

The reports from polls I saw had most don't knows leaning towords Yes, but not fully committed.

The latest Survation poll showing 56% support for the union was commissioned by better together.

I think the No's will shade it, but if it is a close no the tide of history will bring independence eventually.

First Up · 13-09-2014 3:52pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

You could say that at almost any time in the campaign though, and the fact is that there has been unexpected (and seemingly unexplained) surge in the Yes vote, despite most of the media, big business and nearly all non-Nationalist politicians campaigning against independence.

I doubt either side is taking anything for granted at this stage.

The "surge" in the Yes vote was a single poll conducted with a questionable sample. No other poll has confirmed it.
Of course nothing should be taken for granted but don't confuse media hype with reality.

EunanMac · 13-09-2014 3:53pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Scots Nationalists have now been described as "a divisive and evil enemy" by senior Orangemen at the rally in Edinburgh, according to Herald Scotland.

Perfect. Their march and comments should help drive a few more people to the yes vote

Red Nissan · 13-09-2014 3:55pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Perfect. Their march and comments should help drive a few more people to the yes vote

Dem Orange Men do sure talk funny.

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-09-2014 3:56pm

You need to look at the polling company polls rather than interchange different polling companies as they all use slightly different methods

This is the Survation poll over the last 30 days

http://postimg.org/image/5d42hdli3/

EunanMac · 13-09-2014 3:56pm

The only issue I would have with Scottish independence, is based on the Scottich Regiments in the BA, the Scottish Army will be one of the most sectarian hate filled armies on the planet.

Piliger · 13-09-2014 3:56pm

First Up wrote: »

It isn't even close. If people are not already sold on the yes argument (despite the solid reasons for "no") then nothing in the next few days is likely to persuade them. The don't knows will break at least 75/25 to "no".

I see it going the exact opposite.

Piliger · 13-09-2014 3:57pm

EunanMac wrote: »

The only issue I would have with Scottish independence, is based on the Scottich Regiments in the BA, the Scottish Army will be one of the most sectarian hate filled armies on the planet.

Scottish Regiments are brilliant guys.

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-09-2014 3:57pm

First Up wrote: »

The "surge" in the Yes vote was a single poll conducted with a questionable sample. No other poll has confirmed it.
Of course nothing should be taken for granted but don't confuse media hype with reality.

That is not true, all the polls have shown a surge in Yes support over the past month.

You are confusing surge in the Yes support for Yes in the lead

Satriale · 13-09-2014 3:58pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The Scots approached England for the union and were initially turned down, as they were twice previously.

As much as I'm sure you'd like it to be a case of the nasty English subjugating the poor Scots, the fact is, it simply wasn't.

Can you tell me which Scots? I'm not up on the history, but i'd hazard a guess that it was the Scottish upper classes, and not very representative of the majority, (but im open to correction.)

Piliger · 13-09-2014 3:59pm

Satriale wrote: »

Can you tell me which Scots? I'm not up on the history, but i'd hazard a guess that it was the Scottish upper classes, and not very representative of the majority, (but im open to correction.)

Indeed. Less than a dozen when it comes down to it.

EunanMac · 13-09-2014 4:02pm

Piliger wrote: »

Scottish Regiments are brilliant guys.

Brilliant at what ?

Not if you experienced them and their sectarian conduct in NI as I did.

Worse than any regiment up to and including the Para's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWgk6BazgU

First Up · 13-09-2014 4:10pm

smcgiff wrote: »

The reports from polls I saw had most don't knows leaning towords Yes, but not fully committed.

The latest Survation poll showing 56% support for the union was commissioned by better together.

I think the No's will shade it, but if it is a close no the tide of history will bring independence eventually.

I've been saying 55/45 for some time and I've no reason to change it.
Don't knows "leaning" towards Yes means they would like to, but know better. They will either not vote our vote No.
The Yes vote will be largely young working class urbanites who are not too interested in the finer details. Scotland's demographic has a large percentage of them, hence the solid yes vote but it was never enough and the Yes argument hasn't persuaded enough others.
It's over.

Wurzelbert · 13-09-2014 4:12pm

First Up wrote: »

[...]
It's over.

it ain't over 'til it's over

Dozen Wicked Words · 13-09-2014 4:13pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Brilliant at what ?

Not if you experienced them and their sectarian conduct in NI as I did.

Worse than any regiment up to and including the Para's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THWgk6BazgU

Black Watch have a fairly bad reputation even within the British Army.

gladrags · 13-09-2014 4:29pm

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

The chief economist of Deutsche Bank is getting a lot of coverage for his intervention.

Here's a summary (these are actual words used in his statement):

It's fairly heavy-hitting stuff, and the No papers are loving it.

Its very noticeable,even certain papers in Ireland have taken it upon themselves to support the no side.

It is none of there business,nor is it any busines of Hayes from FG,who comments in the sindo.

The status quo is threatened,and the establishment fear of an unknown knock
on effect is palpable.

fiddle_player · 13-09-2014 4:30pm

its interesting to note that the majority of members of the SNP are protestant and all the top brass of the party are , the majority of scottish catholics oppose independence as they fear being a minority in what is traditionally the most anti catholic place in the world outside northern ireland

most catholics in scotland vote labour and labour are calling for a NO vote

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-09-2014 4:37pm

fiddle_player wrote: »

its interesting to note that the majority of members of the SNP are protestant and all the top brass of the party are , the majority of scottish catholics oppose independence as they fear being a minority in what is traditionally the most anti catholic place in the world outside northern ireland

most catholics in scotland vote labour and labour are calling for a NO vote

Simplistic and outdated

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/catholics-are-most-pro-yes-religious-group-in-scotland.23704996

Piliger · 13-09-2014 4:37pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Brilliant at what ?

They did their job and did it well.

First Up · 13-09-2014 4:41pm

gladrags wrote: »

Its very noticeable,even certain papers in Ireland have taken it upon themselves to support the no side.

It is none of there business,nor is it any busines of Hayes from FG,who comments in the sindo.

The status quo is threatened,and the establishment fear of an unknown knock
on effect is palpable.

The "unknown knock on effect" has at least the same risk for your average Joe as it does for anyone from what you call "the establishment". However someone from "the establishment" who actually understands the complexity of something like this is worth listening to more than the guy waving a Saltire and treating it like a football match.

fiddle_player · 13-09-2014 4:46pm

fiachr_a wrote: »

You won't be applauding when they lower their corporation tax to 10%. You won't be applauding when they give us null points in the Eurovision. You won't be applauding when they beat us in the Euro football qualifier in November. You won't be applauding when the Yanks prefer them to us. You won't be applauding when they receive more EU funding then we get. You won't be applauding!

a YES vote would be bad for ireland economically and not just for the reasons outlined above

how healthy the uk economy is , is of great important to ireland , plus a strong pound is good for our exports , in the event of a YES vote , the pound will weaken and whats left of the british economy will suffer

britains economy has been doing very nicely this past year or so

Fratton Fred · 13-09-2014 5:19pm

Satriale wrote: »

Can you tell me which Scots? I'm not up on the history, but i'd hazard a guess that it was the Scottish upper classes, and not very representative of the majority, (but im open to correction.)

It was 1707, the man in the street didn't get a say in anything.

smcgiff · 13-09-2014 5:22pm

First Up wrote: »

The "surge" in the Yes vote was a single poll conducted with a questionable sample. No other poll has confirmed it.
Of course nothing should be taken for granted but don't confuse media hype with reality.

Incorrect - the surge is across all the polls, coming from large gaps to being too close to call.

Nodin · 13-09-2014 5:27pm

smcgiff wrote: »

Incorrect - the surge is across all the polls, coming from large gaps to being too close to call.

It has to be said that given the vast amount of fearmongering going on from some unholy state/business alliance, I'd be amazed if the "yes" crowd" win. It's a shame, but I always thought more groundwork needed to be done before going for it.

EunanMac · 13-09-2014 5:42pm

Piliger wrote: »

They did their job and did it well.

If you were a sectarian orange bigot.

I witnessed them first hand doing their 'job' in NI, more sectarian hateful bigots you could never imagine. Unfortunate they became a great recruitment poster for the IRA.

I'm for Scottish independence, but the Scottish regiments are a real worry, at least the Brits did their bit to try and keep them under some control and discipline. Their ranks are predominately filled with, and totally infected with Scottish loyalists and Scottish orange order sectarian types. Scotland is almost as sectarian as NI.

joseph brand · 13-09-2014 6:06pm

The banks are pooh-poohing Scottish independence.

And Deutsche Bank's Mr Folkerts-Landau has said it was "incomprehensible" that Scotland was even contemplating withdrawal from the UK.

The chief economist compared a potential "Yes" vote to the mistakes which led to the Great Depression of the 1930s.

I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning.

If there's anyone I trust, it's the banks. Having the big banks in your corner is like bringing Jimmy Saville to court as your character witness.

The No side have bankers, the monarchy, The Orange lodge and the conservatives with them.

The Yes side have William Wallace and proper political representation.

Madam · 13-09-2014 6:08pm

EunanMac wrote: »

If you were a sectarian orange bigot.

I witnessed them first hand doing their 'job' in NI, more sectarian hateful bigots you could never imagine. Unfortunate they became a great recruitment poster for the IRA.

I'm for Scottish independence, but the Scottish regiments are a real worry, at least the Brits did their bit to try and keep them under some control and discipline. Their ranks are predominately filled with, and totally infected with Scottish loyalists and Scottish orange order sectarian types. Scotland is almost as sectarian as NI.

Have you ever been to Scotland?

gladrags · 13-09-2014 6:09pm

First Up wrote: »

The "unknown knock on effect" has at least the same risk for your average Joe as it does for anyone from what you call "the establishment". However someone from "the establishment" who actually understands the complexity of something like this is worth listening to more than the guy waving a Saltire and treating it like a football match.

You are complicating the issue,Hayes was not elected to comment on the co stitutional rights of another state,or to try to influence the outcome for whatever reason.

Saltire wavers?

I am sure the vast majority of Scots are taking this seriously.

Piliger · 13-09-2014 6:11pm

EunanMac wrote: »

If you were a sectarian orange bigot.

I witnessed them first hand doing their 'job' in NI, more sectarian hateful bigots you could never imagine. Unfortunate they became a great recruitment poster for the IRA.

I'm for Scottish independence, but the Scottish regiments are a real worry, at least the Brits did their bit to try and keep them under some control and discipline. Their ranks are predominately filled with, and totally infected with Scottish loyalists and Scottish orange order sectarian types. Scotland is almost as sectarian as NI.

A totally deluded characterisation.

EunanMac · 13-09-2014 6:12pm

Madam wrote: »

Have you ever been to Scotland?

Many times, and I seen a lot of sectarianism and orange marches

Madam · 13-09-2014 6:12pm

Firstup seems to generalise an awful lot, as I said before its not just Scots who have the right to vote in this election:)

Madam · 13-09-2014 6:13pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Many times, and I seen a lot of sectarianism and orange marches

I assume Glasgow and the West of Scotland?

EunanMac · 13-09-2014 6:15pm

Piliger wrote: »

A totally deluded characterisation.

In your revisionists dreams . . . watch them sing sectarian songs in ibrox, join in the disgusting bouncy bouncy song, that celebrates the sectarian murder of Robert Hamil, and top it all off with a fascist salute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjVtI2Be9vg

Donkey Oaty · 13-09-2014 6:20pm

joseph brand wrote: »

The No side have bankers, the monarchy, The Orange lodge and the conservatives with them.

And Rod Stewart.

Satriale · 13-09-2014 6:23pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It was 1707, the man in the street didn't get a say in anything.

i partly guessed, didnt Robert Burns write a poem about those that did?

Fratton Fred · 13-09-2014 6:23pm

joseph brand wrote: »

The No side have bankers, the monarchy, The Orange lodge and the conservatives with them.

The Yes side have William Wallace and proper political representation.

I'm pretty sure the monarchy are keeping out of this and Labour and the Liberals are also in the no camp.

My name is URL · 13-09-2014 6:24pm

joseph brand wrote: »

The Yes side have William Wallace and proper political representation.

Also this guy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

joseph brand · 13-09-2014 6:33pm

I'm working on a poster that sums up both sides of the debate.

It's a work in progress and I forgot to add in Rod Stewart. He might be too sexy for the poster, thus distracting the viewers from the real topics at hand.

Donkey Oaty · 13-09-2014 6:43pm

joseph brand wrote: »

It's a work in progress and I forgot to add in Rod Stewart. He might be too sexy for the poster, thus distracting the viewers from the real topics at hand.

That is a real concern - in fact, it is why images of Rod Stewart are banned from all newspapers in the EU.

However, Germany used their economic clout to gain an exemption from that particular directive, and you can see the result here.

(Warning: there is an image of Susan Boyle in the piece also).

eeepaulo · 13-09-2014 6:43pm

joseph brand wrote: »

I'm working on a poster that sums up both sides of the debate.

It's a work in progress and I forgot to add in Rod Stewart. He might be too sexy for the poster, thus distracting the viewers from the real topics at hand.

Is that the official ballot paper?

First Up · 13-09-2014 6:55pm

gladrags wrote: »

You are complicating the issue,Hayes was not elected to comment on the co stitutional rights of another state,or to try to influence the outcome for whatever reason.

Saltire wavers?

I am sure the vast majority of Scots are taking this seriously.

I'm not talking about Hayes. I'm talking about serious Scottish, British and international industrialists, financiers academics and the like who are both well qualified and entitled to offer opinions on it.
Taking it seriously and knowing what you are doing are not always the same thing.

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-09-2014 7:01pm

The barrel being well and truly scraped

'Former prime minister Tony Blair has urged voters in Scotland to opt for staying in the UK'

First Up · 13-09-2014 7:03pm

Nodin wrote: »

It has to be said that given the vast amount of fearmongering going on from some unholy state/business alliance, I'd be amazed if the "yes" crowd" win. It's a shame, but I always thought more groundwork needed to be done before going for it.

I guess "fearmongering" is any fact or opinion you don't like.
What's the opposite - "dreammongering"?

A Dub in Glasgo · 13-09-2014 7:05pm

First Up wrote: »

I guess "fearmongering" is any fact or opinion you don't like.
What's the opposite - "dreammongering"?

http://postimg.org/image/x5wfn5gqv/

joseph brand · 13-09-2014 7:08pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the monarchy are keeping out of this and Labour and the Liberals are also in the no camp.

Her Royal Highness of Majesty, The Queen of England is keeping shtum, while she Queens from her Scottish pad (Balmoral). I'm not sure about the rest of them.

Nigel Farage of UKIP fame has taken a break from demonising gays and all non-whites to call on her most gracious and majestic excellency to speak out. There are fears that she has become reclusive, and doesn't want to speak to anybody. Some reports are saying that she won't wear her crown, she keeps hiding it about the vast palace. The help have employed sniffer dogs on several occasions to hunt down the precious crown, but I digress.

Maybe Farage can join forces with those other stalwarts of national pride the BNP and crush the uppity Scots.

However, I do wonder why Farage would be against a nation looking towards independence when he has been most vocal on the UK leaving Europe? It's not like he's a bigoted, racist hypocrite. Is it?

Donkey Oaty · 13-09-2014 7:10pm

First Up wrote: »

I'm talking about serious Scottish, British and international industrialists, financiers academics and the like who are both well qualified and entitled to offer opinions on it.

Would you accept that many of the people who will be voting in the referendum do not see the above group of people as having their particular interests at heart?

Scottish Independence discussion area

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