Scottish Independence discussion area

spear_mint

id put my house on it that the NO,s will win , a lot of irish people ( very mistakenly ) believe that the scots are just like us , they are not like us at all and have a completely different history to us in relation to england , they were an integral part of the british empire and ( unlike us ) benefited from it accordingly

the scots have a distinctive regional identity but are british to the core when you get down to it

tomwaterford

spear_mint wrote: »

id put my house on it that the NO,s will win , a lot of irish people ( very mistakenly ) believe that the scots are just like us , they are not like us at all and have a completely different history to us in relation to england , they were an integral part of the british empire and ( unlike us ) benefited from it accordingly

the scots have a distinctive regional identity but are british to the core when you get down to it

yes....they are most british of all the people in britin...this is forgot....your average loyalist/unionist in Ireland is more close to the avg scot than the average English person....

kingchess

did they benefit from the union?? and do they still benefit from it?/ the only reason that there is an union is because scotland went broke because of their attempt at empire-the DARIEN SCHEME-which left Scotland broke.

kefir32

Deep down I don't think Alex Salmond wants an Indy Scotland replacing Westminster with Brussels, a meatier parliament and a more equal partner with England which in fairness tends to subsume everything British.
I agree with earlier post that Scotland was never oppressed by England in the union and benefited and still does by this unique and admired union of countries.

NavyandBlue

Is there any indication of what the official name of the UK will be in the event of a "Yes" vote? The United Kingdom of England, Wales and NI? I have been searching the internet high and low for this.

Part of me wonders will the same (somewhat belligerent) attitude be adopted across the water as was adopted here under Bunreacht na hEireann where the State was renamed "Ireland" despite the fact that this is not wholly consistent with the true territorial jurisdiction of the State. It was an empty act of bravado more than anything else. To this extent, the UK would keep its current name or if they wanted to piss off the Scots, the United Kingdom of Really Great Britain and NI :P

kingchess

the united bit refers to the union of england and scotland,so if the vote is yes,then it no longer the united kingdom of......,you are left with England(kingdom),Wales(a principality)and northern Ireland(a province).maybe it could be called little Britain?

NavyandBlue

kingchess wrote: »

the united bit refers to the union of england and scotland,so if the vote is yes,then it no longer the united kingdom of......,you are left with England(kingdom),Wales(a principality)and northern Ireland(a province).maybe it could be called little Britain?

It originally referred to the union of England and Scotland, but the Kingdom of Ireland was united with the other two in 1801 so I presume Northern Ireland is still considered a Kingdom? Especially as it gets its own separate, specific shout-out under the current title. I'd also be surprised if the "UK" part was ever dropped because its use has become so inveterate.

spear_mint

tomwaterford wrote: »

yes....they are most british of all the people in britin...this is forgot....your average loyalist/unionist in Ireland is more close to the avg scot than the average English person....

loyalists dont like the english for the most part

tomwaterford

spear_mint wrote: »

loyalists dont like the english for the most part

they don't like anyone except WASPs it seems:pac::pac:

Gallowglass

tomwaterford wrote: »

yes....they are most british of all the people in britin...this is forgot....your average loyalist/unionist in Ireland is more close to the avg scot than the average English person....

The amount of them with English surnames says otherwise to be honest, I probably have as much Scottish descent as half of them, depends what sort of Scot you mean, a Scot who appreciates his Gaelic heritage or the typical Rangers fan. You would never catch them playing Shinty for example, it's too fenian like.

Fratton Fred

Gallowglass wrote: »

The amount of them with English surnames says otherwise to be honest, I probably have as much Scottish descent as half of them, depends what sort of Scot you mean, a Scot who appreciates his Gaelic heritage or the typical Rangers fan. You would never catch them playing Shinty for example, it's too fenian like.

A true Scot probably has no Gaelic heritage. In fact, a true true Scot would have no Gaelic heritage at all, they would be Pictish, or Caledoni.

If you want to be truely tribal and daft about the whole thing that is.

kingchess

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A true Scot probably has no Gaelic heritage. In fact, a true true Scot would have no Gaelic heritage at all, they would be Pictish, or Caledoni.

If you want to be truely tribal and daft about the whole thing that is.

and you are,just google" scottish highlands" and it will tell you it means the place of the gaels.

Fratton Fred

kingchess wrote: »

and you are,just google" scottish highlands" and it will tell you it means the place of the gaels.

The gaels were blow ins compared with the Picts.

bobbysands81

FreshTendrils wrote: »

I know a number of Catholic McDonald's in Dublin.They don't call themselves Leinster Scots and rightly fecking so.I don't see the Fitzpatrick's or Burke's in Dublin calling themselves Leinster Normans either.
Most Catholics in Ulster with a Scottish surname would be primarily of Irish Gaelic heritage and the Scottish part has most likely been here since the Gallowglass arrived 800 years ago.
The Gallowglass of course were Gaelic/Norse and far closer in heritage to the rest of Ireland than they were to the Picts in the Northeast.

300 years ago the majority of people in Ulster spoke Gaelic.Even the minority English planter traders were speaking it because it was better for business.
100 years ago 10% of Protestants were still fluent in it.
In 2014 they consider it COMPLETELY foreign.This is all part of the Ulster Protestant metamorphosis into something quite removed from their real heritage,quite bizarre given their ongoing obsession with "culture" and "preservation of heritage".
It's not just language either,they brought some key ingredients into traditional Irish music only to spurn it in the 20th century because it was too "taigy".These days they have adopted Line dancing or Scottish Highland dancing - neither of which they have any historical connection with.

Ulster Scots is a Unionist invention to serve a contemporary political position.
It's an idea that only seems to seek out and embellish any distinction between themselves and everyone else on the island.
It's sad,especially when you see the remarkable number of Murphy's,Kelly's,Brennan's,Curran's etc in the diehard flegger ranks.

Basically they don't define themselves by what they are but the opposite of what 'fenians' are.

Gallowglass

Fratton Fred wrote: »

A true Scot probably has no Gaelic heritage. In fact, a true true Scot would have no Gaelic heritage at all, they would be Pictish, or Caledoni.

If you want to be truely tribal and daft about the whole thing that is.

It's not tribal, it's culture that everyone in Scotland has a right to, the fact is Scotland is not entirely a place of raw stereotypical British culture like what the Ulster unionists are a symbol of.

The Gaels first arrived in the 6th century (200 odd years before the Vikings to put that in context), these brought the language with them which in turn started the Mc and Mac surnames that are common in Scotland to this day.

By the logic you are using, Ulster unionists aren't true Ulsterman because they are blow-ins, well more recent blow-ins

Fratton Fred

Gallowglass wrote: »

It's not tribal, it's culture that everyone in Scotland has a right to, the fact is Scotland is not entirely a place of raw stereotypical British culture like what the Ulster unionists are a symbol of.

The Gaels first arrived in the 6th century (200 odd years before the Vikings to put that in context), these brought the language with them which in turn started the Mc and Mac surnames that are common in Scotland to this day.

By the logic you are using, Ulster unionists aren't true Ulsterman because they are blow-ins, well more recent blow-ins

No, my logic is why should the Scots embrace Gaelic culture when it is most likely pretty irrelevant to them.

To be Scottish you don't have to be Gaelic.

Saadyst

Being Scottish, and having lived there for most of my life, I'm glad I don't know anyone that is discussing the referendum to the degree that's being discussed here.... tribes and the NI question... really? :rolleyes:

Stereomaniac

I fail to see what a lot of the stuff being discussed here has to do with us on this little island which I have always referred to as Ireland. It is interesting, but debates about Scot origin?

Gallowglass

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, my logic is why should the Scots embrace Gaelic culture when it is most likely pretty irrelevant to them.

To be Scottish you don't have to be Gaelic.

They don't have to embrace it but a lot of them already do, it's been a part of the places history even if some of the locals might not like it, a bit like the orange culture here.

The average Scot would have a generic 'Celtic' culture, you would see some Scot nationalists with Celtic tattoos on them, Celtic art i mean not the football club.

Gallowglass

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I fail to see what a lot of the stuff being discussed here has to do with us on this little island which I have always referred to as Ireland. It is interesting, but debates about Scot origin?

That's a bit like saying a Scandinavian interest in Viking history shouldn't be talking about Britain and Ireland, it's a part of the historical link. Unless you want to have a chat about Irish-Americans?

Fratton Fred

Gallowglass wrote: »

They don't have to embrace it but a lot of them already do, it's been a part of the places history even if some of the locals might not like it, a bit like the orange culture here.

The average Scot would view have a generic 'Celtic' culture, you would see some Scot nationalists with Celtic tattoos on them, Celtic art i mean not the football club.

The average Scot? Is that a shinty playing Gael, or a "typical Rangers fan"?

Celtic does not equal Gaelic either.

Lone Stone

Gallowglass

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The average Scot? Is that a shinty playing Gael, or a "typical Rangers fan"?

Celtic does not equal Gaelic either.

Good point, maybe there is no average Scot as such.

Yes I know but the people who would be of the Gaelic heritage would be the ones who would call themselves 'Celts' and even the lowland people I would imagine.
You see it a lot on youtube , Irish and Scots having arguments under bagpipe videos on who is the more Celtic.

Fratton Fred

Gallowglass wrote: »

You see it a lot on youtube , Irish and Scots having arguments under bagpipe videos on who is the more Celtic.

I'll give it a miss, thanks all the same.

purplepanda

Years ago I read a Scottish history book written by David Steel (former Liberal Party leader) in which he said the Scottish people were a mixture of Pict, Britons (Welsh speakers in historic regions like Strathclyde), Gaels, Angles, Vikings plus Normans & Flemish.

Study deep enough into Irish history & you'll find also all of the above represented. :pac:

I'm not convinced that the Ulster Scots are the Anglo Saxon refugees from the "Norman Yoke" that some of them try to claim they are either.

The Lost Tribe of Israel stuff is a bit far fetched as well :pac:

Lapin

Dispatches - Channel 4 now for anyone interested in thhis topic.

tomwaterford

Stereomaniac wrote: »

I fail to see what a lot of the stuff being discussed here has to do with us on this little island which I have always referred to as Ireland. It is interesting, but debates about Scot origin?

anyday you don't learn something new is a day wasted:)

Knob Longman

Th' scots hae a ance in lifetime chance tae rin their ain coontry themselves, they woods be a bampot tae vote nae, lots ay wee coontries ur whieest successful.

Things kicking off in Moray. Labour rep called yes voters fascists, complicated by the fact that her son is running for MP. Looks like somebody is going to have to resign.

https://twitter.com/MorayMP/status/486383046028197888/photo/1

Scottie99

Deleted User wrote: »

Things kicking off in Moray. Labour rep called yes voters fascists, complicated by the fact that her son is running for MP. Looks like somebody is going to have to resign.

https://twitter.com/MorayMP/status/486383046028197888/photo/1

George Galloway was calling the SNP Nazis

Scottie99

Scottie99 wrote: »

George Galloway was calling the SNP Nazis

The "slur" was..

Fratton Fred

Scottie99 wrote: »

George Galloway was calling the SNP Nazis

Part of the "yes" deal is that you have to take him back.

GhostInTheRuins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8MmTTP2WWw

Red Nissan

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

I was with him until he mentioned jesus, FFS the King is the head of the Church in England.

He should have ended it in the name of Queen Elizabeth II

MakeEmLaugh

Full episode of Question Time available here, the last one they'll have before the referendum in September.

Duckworth_Luas

GhostInTheRuins wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8MmTTP2WWw

From the comments section of that video

Oli Djien wrote:

This guy isn't from the Highlands. He was born in Inverness but spent most of his life as a well-known bigoted Unionist in Northern Ireland. He called for the extermination of the entire Irish population and the Republic of Ireland to be "resettled by upstanding British Protestants."

I cant believe this moron got a word on TV. He's completely off his rocker and a disgrace to humanity.

LordSutch

I haven't seen any polls recently, but I get the impression that the 'Better together' (NO) campaign is well in the lead at this point in time. I'm guessing something like 70% No, 30% Yes will be the result on the day . . . .

MakeEmLaugh

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

From the comments section of that video

Originally Posted by Oli Djien
This guy isn't from the Highlands. He was born in Inverness but spent most of his life as a well-known bigoted Unionist in Northern Ireland. He called for the extermination of the entire Irish population and the Republic of Ireland to be "resettled by upstanding British Protestants."

I cant believe this moron got a word on TV. He's completely off his rocker and a disgrace to humanity.

I'm not saying he definitely didn't say that, but we have zero evidence to suggest he did, other than a YouTube comment. YouTube comments are about as reliable as what you'd find written in a toilet cubicle.

Scottie99

LordSutch wrote: »

I haven't seen any polls recently, but I get the impression that the 'Better together' (NO) campaign is well in the lead at this point in time. I'm guessing something like 70% No, 30% Yes will be the result on the day . . . .

I don't believe polls. As you know polls can be made to suit ... On the ground it's completely different. Still 65 days to go I still think Independence will be a yes. Checkout twitter on #indyref (both sides )#voteyes

Scottie99

The key to victory is the Undecided vote..

ruthloss

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

From the comments section of that video

Wow., and someone in the audience clapped.:eek:

Scottie99

Update on polls..

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BJssYvfjqBE&feature=share

comongethappy

So a 'No' it looks like then.

Shame.

Scottie99

comongethappy wrote: »

So a 'No' it looks like then.

Shame.

Quite the opposite

comongethappy

Scottie99 wrote: »

Quite the opposite

No.... Quite the actuality....

Unless the 15%-20% poll lead.... Over & over again is an incredible statistical anomaly?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

Don't let hope cloud reality.....

Scottie99

comongethappy wrote: »

No.... Quite the actuality....

Unless the 15%-20% poll lead.... Over & over again is an incredible statistical anomaly?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

Don't let hope cloud reality.....

YouTube - yes prime minister polls
Also look up #publishthepolls

Scottie99

Yes prime minister polls

http://youtu.be/G0ZZJXw4MTA

comongethappy

Scottie99 wrote: »

YouTube - yes prime minister polls
Also look up #publishthepolls

What does that show the gap as?

Scottie99

They refused to publish it hence #publishthepoll.

Yes campaign seem very confident as do people I speak to recently in Scotland.
Don't just believe Pravda BBC and uk media, get your sources everywhere..

comongethappy

Scottie99 wrote: »

They refused to publish it hence #publishthepoll.

Yes campaign seem very confident as do people I speak to recently in Scotland.
Don't just believe Pravda BBC and uk media, get your sources everywhere..

What do the numbers say though....