Scottish Independence discussion area

A Dub in Glasgo

Live link to Yes rally at the BBC HQ in Scotland to protest over their bias in reporting on the referendum

http://new.livestream.com/IndependenceLive/BBCBiasV

A Dub in Glasgo

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

Anyone heard any estimations on when they'll have the result? Friday morning? Saturday morning? I'd hate to miss it live.

http://www.electionsscotland.info/emb/download/downloads/id/52/count_timing_for_2014_scottish_independence_referendum

There are 32 local council areas and they will count the votes and return the result to the Chief Counting Officer. The CCO will collate all 32 and announce the national vote once all 32 counts have been declared.

Coverage starts at 22.30 Thursday and the expectation is the first council area results will be declared from 02.00 Friday onwards.

Unfortunately, for me, I have a commercial contracts course on Friday otherwise I would be up all night!

laugh

The BBC are not being balanced at all.

SaveOurLyric

laugh wrote: »

The BBC are not being balanced at all.

Quite rightly. Their charter applies to serving the United Kingdom and not promoting the cause of the secess who place themselves outside it.

First Up

laugh wrote: »

The BBC are not being balanced at all.

So it ends with a whimper.

Bigus

Lads the bookies are always ahead of the game , look how much the odds have shortened on paddy power for a yes , roll on Scottish independence, I think I'll head over for a great night of celebration on Friday !

On the economic front , would the Germans like to put the wall back up after few years of hardship , I think not , money isn't everything , or am I wrong ?

A Dub in Glasgo

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Quite rightly. Their charter applies to serving the United Kingdom and not promoting the cause of the secess who place themselves outside it.

Can you point to that clause in their charter or other documents?

Fratton Fred

Bigus wrote: »

Lads the bookies are always ahead of the game , look how much the odds have shortened on paddy power for a yes , roll on Scottish independence, I think I'll head over for a great night of celebration on Friday !

On the economic front , would the Germans like to put the wall back up after few years of hardship , I think not , money isn't everything , or am I wrong ?

Slight difference between Scotland and Germany though. For starters no one has been killed crossing the English/Scottish border since Hadrian's days. Scotland is somewhat different to the old east Germany as well, despite what the yes campaign will have you think.

Money isn't everything sure, but the very real risk of financial hardship has to be offset by benefits and other than straightforward nationalism, are there any?

Piliger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Money isn't everything sure, but the very real risk of financial hardship has to be offset by benefits and other than straightforward nationalism, are there any?

Except no one has offered the slightest evidence to support this mythical claim about 'hardship'. It's all a load of woo woo.

Piliger

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Quite rightly. Their charter applies to serving the United Kingdom and not promoting the cause of the secess who place themselves outside it.

This is a perverted view of their responsibility to be unbiased.

Iwasfrozen

Piliger wrote: »

This is a perverted view of their responsibility to be unbiased.

Complain to Ofcom, it will do a hell of a lot more good than complaining on boards.ie.

Fratton Fred

Piliger wrote: »

Except no one has offered the slightest evidence to support this mythical claim about 'hardship'. It's all a load of woo woo.

The whole UK economy will be affected, if only because of the huge cost of it all. Then there's the fact of a fledgling economy starting up with a debt of at least 60% of its GDP.

Job losses are a very real prospect as rUK pulls civil service, defence and shipbuilding jobs back in to its own country, plus whatever the private sector does.

None of this is mythical.

SaveOurLyric

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The whole UK economy will be affected, if only because of the huge cost of it all. Then there's the fact of a fledgling economy starting up with a debt of at least 60% of its GDP.

Job losses are a very real prospect as rUK pulls civil service, defence and shipbuilding jobs back in to its own country, plus whatever the private sector does.

None of this is mythical.

No, not mythical. Conjecture though.

Piliger

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Complain to Ofcom, it will do a hell of a lot more good than complaining on boards.ie.

I didn't complain.

Piliger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The whole UK economy will be affected, if only because of the huge cost of it all.

What are these costs ?

Then there's the fact of a fledgling economy starting up with a debt of at least 60% of its GDP.

No different than many other successful countries even if that figure were accurate.

Job losses are a very real prospect as rUK pulls civil service, defence and shipbuilding jobs back in to its own country, plus whatever the private sector does.

People working for the civil service in Scotland work for the Scottish Civil Service. Defence presence in Scotland is very low and most of them cannot be relocated for at least 5 or 10 years. Shipbuilding will more than likely increase employment as Scotland will not be dependent on Westminster to make decisions.
Independence does not change the market and the private sector has no reason to move. The truth is that industry across the board will benefit from lower taxes and Scottish control over economic policies, instead of all economic policies being made to benefit London and England for 200+ years.

None of this is mythical.

Well they have no basis in actual fact.

Piliger

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

No, not mythical. Conjecture though.

Concocted.

Firefox11

Richard wrote: »

There will not be one person who switches from Yes to No after this march. But possibly a few who will go the other way...

Yes. Those orange sashes always seem to cut the oxygen off to the brains of those orangemen plus they are used to saying NO! :P

eeepaulo

Piliger wrote: »

What are these costs ?

Integrated systems in need to be separated in every single way.
This is not free.
Just the wages of the negotiating teams, which will be full of consultants from every possible industry.

Piliger wrote: »

No different than many other successful countries even if that figure were accurate.

The debt is fine. If oil is even a quite a bit below forecast no bother at all.

Piliger wrote: »

People working for the civil service in Scotland work for the Scottish Civil Service. Defence presence in Scotland is very low and most of them cannot be relocated for at least 5 or 10 years. Shipbuilding will more than likely increase employment as Scotland will not be dependent on Westminster to make decisions.

The scottish civil service will have to grow. A full government will be needed. Im not sure what will happen with defence or shipbuilding as we have not really been told, i heard alex salmon mention that he was creating a force to replace any jobs lost due to trident but i heard no details. I would guess they are entitled to between 7-10% of the current uk forces.

Piliger wrote: »

Independence does not change the market and the private sector has no reason to move. The truth is that industry across the board will benefit from lower taxes and Scottish control over economic policies, instead of all economic policies being made to benefit London and England for 200+ years.

Well they have no basis in actual fact.

Assuming that uk companies and the uk public are happy employing people in a foreign company there will be minimal job losses. If companies come under pressure from uk customers to move operations that could change.

This idea of lower taxes might happen but do we have any real idea of what the new economy will look like? I mean even any broad notion.

m1ck007

Vote yes for freedom from british rule. Vote no if ur scared of freedom. Thats the way i see it.

Iwasfrozen

m1ck007 wrote: »

Vote yes for freedom from british rule. Vote no if ur scared of freedom. Thats the way i see it.

What if you're not scared of freedom but you're proud of Scotland's place within the Union and feel a natural affinity to Britain as an entity. What way should you vote then?

eug87

Great thread
Really enjoying the read also the whole propaganda, very interesting.
BBC SKY Guardian telegraph etc nothing but negative stories include starting
a great depression,brain drain,telecom supermarket and banks all fleeing
a independent Scotland.All big fat maybes.

Unsure if this is already in the thread.
BBC reporter Nick Robinson was accused of cutting out Alex Salmonds answer.
Thousands protested (Yes voters)outside the BBC Scotland
claiming bias reporting.

News clip BBC has with Nick Robinson

Alex Salmonds answer

Nick Robinson later said on the BBC that Alex Salmond avoided the question that been the reason for not showing his answer.


No one can predict what a independent Scotland will look like if it happens but they have many models with same size countries to look upon for them to succeed.

Fratton Fred

Piliger wrote: »

What are these costs ?

No different than many other successful countries even if that figure were accurate.

People working for the civil service in Scotland work for the Scottish Civil Service. Defence presence in Scotland is very low and most of them cannot be relocated for at least 5 or 10 years. Shipbuilding will more than likely increase employment as Scotland will not be dependent on Westminster to make decisions.
Independence does not change the market and the private sector has no reason to move. The truth is that industry across the board will benefit from lower taxes and Scottish control over economic policies, instead of all economic policies being made to benefit London and England for 200+ years.

Well they have no basis in actual fact.

Seriously? You can't see the costs in seperating the NHS, the civil service? Border control, the ministry of defence?

There are civil servants in Scotland, but not necessarily a Scottish civil service. HMRC, for example, collect all the tax for the UK, which is then allocated out. This will need to be split.

The same will apply for all other branches of the civil service.

How will shipbuilding grow in an independent Scotland?

Defence presence in Scotland isn't that low. Some 6000 people owe their jobs to the naval bases on the Clyde. The SNP have committed to removing trident from Scotland, so they aren't going to leave that hanging around for twenty years. That goes, the RN goes. Then there's the RAF.

Scotland will have a depth of 60% of its GDP, but how much interest will they pay on it? Who will be loaning then money? Plus, of course, their new lower tax regime will further reduce their ability to service this debt.

None of this is myth, conjecture or scaremongering, it is simply a much closer view of the facts than the fairy tale happy ending the SNP are talking about.

Of course, we know one person who will be fine and dandy after independence, in fact, there's only one person who future is guaranteed in an independent Scotland.

First Up

eug87 wrote: »

Great thread
Really enjoying the read also the whole propaganda, very interesting.
BBC SKY Guardian telegraph etc nothing but negative stories include starting
a great depression,brain drain,telecom supermarket and banks all fleeing
a independent Scotland.All big fat maybes.

Unsure if this is already in the thread.
BBC reporter Nick Robinson was accused of cutting out Alex Salmonds answer.
Thousands protested (Yes voters)outside the BBC Scotland
claiming bias reporting.

News clip BBC has with Nick Robinson

Alex Salmonds answer

Nick Robinson later said on the BBC that Alex Salmond avoided the question that been the reason for not showing his answer.


No one can predict what a independent Scotland will look like if it happens but they have many models with same size countries to look upon for them to succeed.

Yes, this canard was covered earlier in the thread. There was nothing to it then and there is nothing to it now. Just the Yes side looking for someone to blame.

First Up

m1ck007 wrote: »

Vote yes for freedom from british rule. Vote no if ur scared of freedom. Thats the way i see it.

Is your knowledge of history as bad as your geography?

Tomk1

I think the BBC has clearly been bias , but as a company kindof rightly so as they will loose a load of dosh/jobs.

If Scotland get independence form UK & EU they could drop corporate tax, the likes of Apple would like that, downside for Ireland is companies could choose Scotland rather than Ireland.

For UKIP; a Scotland-EUIP experiment would indicate if England having more independence from EU would be beneficial, also maybe give someone in Irish politics also the guts to seek something called Home Rule.


(imagine if some parts wanted to stay UK and break away from Scotland)

fryup

as i said before....dividing a small island in two is usually a recipe for disaster

e.g. Ireland

Duckworth_Luas

fryup wrote: »

as i said before....dividing a small island in two is usually a recipe for disaster

e.g. Ireland

Unionism: The belief that two similar countries might fare better together. Unless they're both part of Ireland.

- F Boyle

BonnieSituation

This costs issue is another red herring consistently being levied at Yes Scotland.

There's costs in everything. But the idea of independent Scotland is to create a Society with an Economy attached. Not the other way round.

Ireland suffered from this since 2008. It isn't pleasant.

The remarks from John Redwood today stating that he would be hard pushed to vote for further powers for Scotland without England and Wales receiving same to me, is the true reality of the Conservatives.

Scotland could be independent quicker than it would receive further devolution.

Spring Onion

m1ck007 wrote: »

Vote yes for freedom from british rule. Vote no if ur scared of freedom. Thats the way i see it.

It's never about "freedom". It's only ever about money.
Scotland will vote No because the majority will be scared about the economic implications (whether their fears are correct or not).

kingchess

if the three main parties in UK parliament give more power (devo-max) to Scotland,then how long before England and Wales and Northern Ireland demand the same powers given to Scotland??.and the powers promised are not a binding contract-after a No vote it can be withdrawn.

BoJack Horseman

kingchess wrote: »

if the three main parties in UK parliament give more power (devo-max) to Scotland,then how long before England and Wales and Northern Ireland demand the same powers given to Scotland??.and the powers promised are not a binding contract-after a No vote it can be withdrawn.

The welsh & NI assemblies may call for more powers, but as there isn't much of an independence push there, Westminster can negotiate small areas it thinks it can devolve without urgency.

fryup

now here's a man i'm surprised is voting no...

george galloway

esp with his extreme left wing and anti establishment views

Fratton Fred

BonnieSituation wrote: »

This costs issue is another red herring consistently being levied at Yes Scotland.

There's costs in everything. But the idea of independent Scotland is to create a Society with an Economy attached. Not the other way round.

Ireland suffered from this since 2008. It isn't pleasant.

The remarks from John Redwood today stating that he would be hard pushed to vote for further powers for Scotland without England and Wales receiving same to me, is the true reality of the Conservatives.

Scotland could be independent quicker than it would receive further devolution.

What's the problem with England and Wales receiving more powers?

Happyman42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What if you're not scared of freedom but you're proud of Scotland's place within the Union and feel a natural affinity to Britain as an entity. What way should you vote then?

What is this 'affinity'.
We keep hearing this from ardent Unionists, that there is something valuable in being 'British'. What is available to somebody who calls themselves 'British' that isn't available to somebody from an independent sovereign entity?

So many have died for this 'thing' called 'Britishness'...what is it?

fryup

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is available to somebody who calls themselves 'British' that isn't available to somebody from an independent sovereign entity?

ammmm............bbc local radio ?

BoJack Horseman

Happyman42 wrote: »

So many have died for this 'thing' called 'Britishness'...what is it?

Its a bulldog dressed in a union-jack sitting on top a huge pork pie.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is this 'affinity'.
We keep hearing this from ardent Unionists, that there is something valuable in being 'British'. What is available to somebody who calls themselves 'British' that isn't available to somebody from an independent sovereign entity?

So many have died for this 'thing' called 'Britishness'...what is it?

What is it to be Irish?

Happyman42

fryup wrote: »

ammmm............bbc local radio ?

Tiocaigh Ár FM?

A Dub in Glasgo

The promises of extra powers does not equate to Devo Max. The Labour Party promised these extra powers but cannot enact them as they do not have a majority in Westminster therefore the timetable is laughable. What we have here is throw some information at the wavering vote and hope some of it sticks

The current devolution arrangement can be repealed by Westminster and there is feck all the Scottish people can do about that

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What is it to be Irish?

I asked the question...what is available to somebody who calls themselves British that is not available to somebody from an independent sovereign entity?

If you can't answer that, please don't move the goalposts.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

I asked the question...what is available to somebody who calls themselves British that is not available to somebody from an independent sovereign entity?

If you can't answer that, please don't move the goalposts.

So you can't answer your own question then?

Being British isn't easy to define, just as being Irish or Scottish isnt easy to define.

I've tried explaining it to you before, but you will never see being British as anything other than wrong, so there's no point explaining it to you again.

Happyman42

Happyman42 wrote: »

What is this 'affinity'.
We keep hearing this from ardent Unionists, that there is something valuable in being 'British'. What is available to somebody who calls themselves 'British' that isn't available to somebody from an independent sovereign entity?

So many have died for this 'thing' called 'Britishness'...what is it?

At a guess it's the belief that people from Scotland, England and Wales aren't actually that different, and that given they have 300 years of shared history as a sovereign country some people have got used to that and like it.

I am ambivalent about the result of the referendum (none of my business anyway) but I am tired of the idiocy of some 'yes' supporters who insist on suggesting that somehow the current arrangement is England 'ruling' Scotland as opposed to what it actually is - a government of the united kingdom, elected by all parts of the united kingdom, that rules all of them.

England no more 'rules' scotland than scotland ruled england when Gordon Brown was prime minister (or Tony Blair, although to be fair he was a funny sort of scottish).

The relationship between england and scotland is very different to the relationship between england and ireland. Scots were enthusiastic participants in the british 'project' and the british empire. As recently as 50 years ago they were electing conservatives in their droves. The idea that they have been under some historical yoke is nonsense.

Do the same people have some terrible difficulty with the idea of the United States? Australia? Belgium?

Happyman42

Deleted User wrote: »

At a guess it's the belief that people from Scotland, England and Wales aren't actually that different, and that given they have 300 years of shared history as a sovereign country some people have got used to that and like it.

I am ambivalent about the result of the referendum (none of my business anyway) but I am tired of the idiocy of some 'yes' supporters who insist on suggesting that somehow the current arrangement is England 'ruling' Scotland as opposed to what it actually is - a government of the united kingdom, elected by all parts of the united kingdom, that rules all of them.

I would think that the thrust of the 'YES' campaign has been to say that Scotland is disadvantaged by being ruled from Westminister rather than any overt oppression of Scots.

The relationship between england and scotland is very different to the relationship between england and ireland. Scots were enthusiastic participants in the british 'project' and the british empire. As recently as 50 years ago they were electing conservatives in their droves. The idea that they have been under some historical yoke is nonsense.

Do the same people have some terrible difficulty with the idea of the United States? Australia? Belgium?

No, I don't have any difficulty with that, but there is very clearly a desire to separate from a Union that is working against the people (a very large proportion of them anyway). That has to be allowed to happen without rancour or silly scaremongering.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

Do the same people have some terrible difficulty with the idea of the United States? Australia? Belgium?

Ironically, you have answered your own question there as each of those are federal democracies unlike the UK

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So you can't answer your own question then?

I didn't ask anything about being 'Irish'.

Comfreycream

Just look into Ireland & 'Anglo Irish Bank', the taxpayer footing the billions.. High unemployment and low wages, Enough said.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Ironically, you have answered your own question there as each of those are federal democracies unlike the UK

So you don't have a problem with those unions because some powers are devolved to individual states or regions, but you have a problem with the UK because... er....

You do realise there is a scottish parliament - right?

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

So you don't have a problem with those unions because some powers are devolved to individual states or regions, but you have a problem with the UK because... er....

You do realise there is a scottish parliament - right?

You are the one comparing United States (federal system), Belgium (federal system) & Austrailia (federal system) with the UK (non-federal system). It is quite clear that the federal systems are better equipped at dealing with disparate nations / states

Scotland has a reinstated Parliament with some devolved powers from Westminster. That does not equate to federalism

We are not being asked to vote on Federalism or Devo Max, we are being asked to vote on the the existing arrangement or independence. I have chosen independence from that choice.

Happyman42

Happyman42 wrote: »

No, I don't have any difficulty with that, but there is very clearly a desire to separate from a Union that is working against the people (a very large proportion of them anyway). That has to be allowed to happen without rancour or silly scaremongering.

There isn't very clearly a desire to do anything as far as I can tell. Unless you have access to private polling we haven't seen?

Nor is is clear how the Union harms Scotland. One the one hand the UK is obviously lop-sided and the current government must be the least scottish, and least likely to care about scotland other than as a holiday destination and whiskey source, in history. On the other, there are benefits that come from working together and being in a union.

I think it's obvious Scotland can be a proud and successful independent country, if that's what they want. I just object to the total misunderstanding of the historical reality of the union.

All joking aside Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for.

Comfreycream

EU