Scottish Independence discussion area

folbotcar · 15-09-2014 6:52pm

I watched Cameron's speech and while I know politicians lie all the time. I have never seen so many blatant lies in one speech in my life. That man is desperate. If I was a Scot I would be insulted.

Nonsense like, needing a passport to cross the border. Us 'foreign' Irish don't even need passports to travel to England. Scotland excluded from the 'British lions'. Funny that, I thought it was the British and Irish lions. Scots no longer allowed to join the British forces even though we Irish and many other former British colonies can do so.

He said British embassies will no longer help Scots in trouble abroad. Friends and relatives becoming foreign to each other. Does that mean he intends to strip all Scots of British passports? British embassies often help Irish people abroad but apparently the ungrateful Scots deserve harsh treatment for their treachery.

Does he honestly think Scots are that stupid? The patronising tory prat.

I hope the Scots have the guts to vote yes and end the career of that lying toff. Plus Scotland will be the better for it too. I think the real loser will be England.

efb · 15-09-2014 6:53pm

My message to Scotland

http://youtu.be/p8Ojjn35kP8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8Ojjn35kP8

dlouth15 · 15-09-2014 6:55pm

folbotcar wrote: »

Nonsense like, needing a passport to cross the border. Us 'foreign' Irish don't even need passports to travel to England. Scotland excluded from the 'British lions'. Funny that, I thought it was the British and Irish lions. Scots no longer allowed to join the British forces even though we Irish and many other former British colonies can do so.

Yes, a lot of this stuff was debunked a long time ago. This could backfire badly on Cameron.

He said British embassies will no longer help Scots in trouble abroad. Friends and relatives becoming foreigner to each other. Does that mean he intends to strip all Scots of British passports? British embassies often help Irish people abroad but apparently the ungrateful Scots deserve harsh treatment for their treachery.

Yes, Ireland has formal arrangements with British embassies abroad.

everdead.ie · 15-09-2014 6:55pm

First Up wrote: »

It took Ireland the best part of fifty years to recover.

Ireland was poor and destitute for generations before independence with no industry and almost completely dependent on agricultural exports.

Not to mention we got freedom at a time when shortly thereafter we entered a period of massive protectionism.

Ireland did very well out of independence but it did take time to build up any steam to make significant changes.

Dozen Wicked Words · 15-09-2014 7:02pm

England won't lose out with a Scottish yes vote, it will encourage the regions to seek more autonomy from London. The only way England will lose out will be a political shift to the right, and some wouldn't consider that a negative anyway (though I would). I don't mind who wins the vote personally, hope there is an amicable coming together with the winners and losers.

A turnout of 80 + percent is going to be a thing to be applauded whatever the result.

15-09-2014 7:09pm

folbotcar wrote: »

He said British embassies will no longer help Scots in trouble abroad. Friends and relatives becoming foreign to each other. Does that mean he intends to strip all Scots of British passports?

I didn't hear Cameron's speech but.. er... isn't this what independence is? Of course you give up your British passport. Then you get a scottish one.

You can't argue about how awful the union is and how you want to stand on your own two feet and then turn around and say "excuse me can we use your passport and embassies?" That makes no sense!

I am sure an arrangement can be reached but the idea that the English would have to be 'good sports' in any negotiations is about as absurd as the idea that the scots should share their oil revenues 'to be fair'

15-09-2014 7:10pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I suspect that they will do what we did, become a trading partner with England.

???

Obviously you don't know much about your own country, never mind Scotland and England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War

Happyman42 · 15-09-2014 7:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

???

Obviously you don't know much about your own country, never mind Scotland and England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War

:rolleyes: What have England and Ireland been doing for decades now?

folbotcar · 15-09-2014 7:13pm

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

England won't lose out with a Scottish yes vote, it will encourage the regions to seek more autonomy from London. The only way England will lose out will be a political shift to the right, and some wouldn't consider that a negative anyway (though I would). I don't mind who wins the vote personally, hope there is an amicable coming together with the winners and losers.

A turnout of 80 + percent is going to be a thing to be applauded whatever the result.

The shift to the right is one of the biggest worries across Europe not just England and has been used by the yes campaign as another reason to vote yes. I'm not sure if the English are really the type to swing to the right but if they do and they vote to leave the EU. It will not be good for Scotland or Northern Ireland or us frankly.

If there is a yes vote there will of course be an amicable break up. On the other hand if there's a no Salmond has frightened the others into giving Scotland more power. So it's a win win for him no matter what the result.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't hear Cameron's speech but.. er... isn't this what independence is? Of course you give up your British passport. Then you get a scottish one.
'

Only if you want to. If someone in Scotland whats keep their British passport they can

Piliger · 15-09-2014 7:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

???

Obviously you don't know much about your own country, never mind Scotland and England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War

Meaning nothing essentially. Another century, another world. This is the EU.

Piliger · 15-09-2014 7:17pm

everdead.ie wrote: »

Ireland was poor and destitute for generations before independence with no industry and almost completely dependent on agricultural exports.

Not to mention we got freedom at a time when shortly thereafter we entered a period of massive protectionism.

Ireland did very well out of independence but it did take time to build up any steam to make significant changes.

Not worth much as a comparison considering where we started. The wider point is that we were better off after than before. A lot more so.

The British like to conveniently overlook the fact that decisions in Westminster have been taken for hundreds of years that benefited England, and not Scotland.

From the get go Scotland will be able to incentivise business, manufacturing, exports and lower corporate tax as Ireland does. They can manage their own affairs to benefit themselves and not England.

folbotcar · 15-09-2014 7:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't hear Cameron's speech but.. er... isn't this what independence is? Of course you give up your British passport. Then you get a scottish one.

They never took away British passports from the Irish who were born before independence. Why should they penalise the Scots in a way they never treated us. They cannot take away the passports anyway. They were born in the UK. That can't be revoked.

15-09-2014 7:20pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

:rolleyes: What have England and Ireland been doing for decades now?

You used the past tense in your comment. "What we did". What we did (and with some reason to be honest) was engage in a trade war. There is NO reason why something similar won't happen again in the case of Scotland.

As I am sure you of all people are aware (and talk about relentlessly all over the site) the British state will ruthlessly pursue its own interests and if that means making life a misery for the Scots, don't put it past them.

To give one 'soft' example, I see no possibility of rUK politicians or the public agreeing to give an independent Scotland any say whatsoever in a shared currency. Why would they?

Nobody owes anyone a favour in international politics. That is one reason why the 'unions' you so disparage are popular. They make common ground and common purpose. Scotland would need to hope it gets into the EU immediately (something that I think will happen) and on its own terms (debatable).

snubbleste · 15-09-2014 7:24pm

Darling just said on Sky that you need a passport to fly to Ireland, otherwise Border Control in Dublin won't let you in..

Very selective - it's the airline that insists on passport photo id.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:28pm

snubbleste wrote: »

Darling just said on Sky that you need a passport to fly to Ireland, otherwise Border Control in Dublin won't let you in..

Very selective - it's the airline that insists on passport photo id.

Not selective, it is a lie. Although I expect nothing less from Darling

Fratton Fred · 15-09-2014 7:28pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Only if you want to. If someone in Scotland whats keep their British passport they can

And if a Scottish passport holder needs consular assistance abroad?

£200 million or what ever has been quoted isn't going to create many embassies.

Happyman42 · 15-09-2014 7:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody owes anyone a favour in international politics.

It is not in anyone's interests to engage in a trade war and Westminister will always look after it's own interests. Create an antagonistic neighbour? I don't think that will happen.

15-09-2014 7:31pm

folbotcar wrote: »

They never took away British passports from the Irish who were born before independence. Why should they penalise the Scots in a way they never treated us. They cannot take away the passports anyway. They were born in the UK. That can't be revoked.

Can't be revoked? Are you serious? The UK doesn't even have a written constitution, they can do whatever they want.

Even the SNP claims nothing more than British passports will be valid until expiry. That's not long in the grand scheme of things.

Happyman42 · 15-09-2014 7:31pm

snubbleste wrote: »

Darling just said on Sky that you need a passport to fly to Ireland, otherwise Border Control in Dublin won't let you in..

Very selective - it's the airline that insists on passport photo id.

I think they are desperate now, they are obviously going after the idiot vote.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:32pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think they are desperate now, they are obviously going after the idiot vote.

To be fair, they have been going after the idiot vote for a while now

15-09-2014 7:32pm

snubbleste wrote: »

Darling just said on Sky that you need a passport to fly to Ireland, otherwise Border Control in Dublin won't let you in..

Very selective - it's the airline that insists on passport photo id.

You have to show your passport on arrival in Dublin airport from the UK. Nothing to do with the airline, and I have no idea why and have never understood it.

I am guessing if you insist you don't need to show it.

Fratton Fred · 15-09-2014 7:34pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

NHS, education,law is separate in Scotland.
Defence - Scottish government have said there will be saving on defence. The UK charges scotland 4/5Billion a year SG say it can be done for much less.
They're suggesting the start up costs will be 200million

NHS Scotland is separate, but central functions such as procurement, payroll etc are done centrally I thought?

Law isvseperate, yes, but how many taxes does Scotland currently collect? That is a massive department to set up, as is border control.

I'd be very interested in seeing how those figures are made up.

I'd also be interested in how the UK government "charge" Scotland for defence. Salmond is planning a £2.5bn defence budget by the way.

SwiftJustice · 15-09-2014 7:34pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to show your passport on arrival in Dublin airport from the UK. Nothing to do with the airline, and I have no idea why and have never understood it.

I am guessing if you insist you don't need to show it.

I think you need a passport even if you are on a domestic flight from Cork.

15-09-2014 7:36pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

It is not in anyone's interests to engage in a trade war and Westminister will always look after it's own interests. Create an antagonistic neighbour? I don't think that will happen.

Define antagonistic I suppose. I think things are pretty antagonistic already, looking at it from the outside.

I don't think a trade war is likely as I think scotland will gain access to the EU on independence. However, I would absolutely expect rUK to load as many costs of independence onto Scotland as possible. There's no reason they'd provide diplomatic or consular services without getting cost and more.

I'd also expect them to fight their corner on currency (and win). That remains the elephant in the room.

snubbleste · 15-09-2014 7:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to show your passport on arrival in Dublin airport from the UK. Nothing to do with the airline, and I have no idea why and have never understood it.
I am guessing if you insist you don't need to show it.

You don't need a passport. http://www.aerlingus.com/travelinformation/knowbeforeyoufly/visaspassports/#d.en.4568

Darling put it in the context that travellers to England from Indy Scotland would need a passport. Boulton challenged him on this with the CommonTravelArea..

Happyman42 · 15-09-2014 7:37pm

I travelled regularly from Donegal to the heart of London during the 80's and ealry 90's by boat and train, without ever having to show a passport, I think it's an airline thing.

folbotcar · 15-09-2014 7:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Can't be revoked? Are you serious? The UK doesn't even have a written constitution, they can do whatever they want.

Even the SNP claims nothing more than British passports will be valid until expiry. That's not long in the grand scheme of things.

It's still highly unlikely particularly in the cold hard reality of an independent Scotland.

Vindictive punishment of the Scots would be counter productive. That's the reality post independence.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to show your passport on arrival in Dublin airport from the UK. Nothing to do with the airline, and I have no idea why and have never understood it.

I am guessing if you insist you don't need to show it.

Citizens Information wrote:

The Common Travel Area means that there are no passport controls in operation for Irish and UK citizens travelling between the two countries. Since 1997, some controls are in effect on arrivals in Ireland from the UK but this does not mean that you are required to carry your Irish or UK passport with you when you travel between the countries. You must, however, carry an acceptable form of photo-identification, examples of which are listed below. When you arrive in Ireland, you may sometimes be asked for valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it would be advisable to travel with your passport.

A valid passport
A driver's licence with photo
An international student card
A national ID card
A bus pass with photo
A Garda ID with photo
A work ID with photo

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

15-09-2014 7:40pm

snubbleste wrote: »

You don't need a passport. http://www.aerlingus.com/travelinformation/knowbeforeyoufly/visaspassports/#d.en.4568

Darling put it in the context that travellers to England from Indy Scotland would need a passport. Boulton challenged him on this with the CommonTravelArea..

You need proof of citizenship which amounts to the same thing.

Yes, you can travel with your drivers license and birth certificate, that's much handier and more convenient I am sure.

I don't know what Darling said but it is self-evident (again) that one independent country cannot offer any guarantee to another than there will always be an open border. I think it's incredibly unlikely as of today but if Scotland joins or is forced to join Schengen it absolutely will happen.

Fratton Fred · 15-09-2014 7:41pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You have to show your passport on arrival in Dublin airport from the UK. Nothing to do with the airline, and I have no idea why and have never understood it.

I am guessing if you insist you don't need to show it.

I use my driving licence, but out of pure belligerence. I always take my passport though.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:43pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Define antagonistic I suppose. I think things are pretty antagonistic already, looking at it from the outside.

I don't think a trade war is likely as I think scotland will gain access to the EU on independence. However, I would absolutely expect rUK to load as many costs of independence onto Scotland as possible. There's no reason they'd provide diplomatic or consular services without getting cost and more.

I'd also expect them to fight their corner on currency (and win). That remains the elephant in the room.

Text of the Edinburgh Agreement

http://postimg.org/image/mz9tjdpsl/

15-09-2014 7:43pm

If there is a "yes" vote, how long would it take to evict the Scottish MPs from the house of commons?

15-09-2014 7:43pm

folbotcar wrote: »

It's still highly unlikely particularly in the cold hard reality of an independent Scotland.

Vindictive punishment of the Scots would be counter productive. That's the reality post independence.

I think it's a certainty! Or rather, I agree that they will probably allow dual nationality for anyone currently alive but from then on definitely not. So you might keep a British passport but your children certainly won't be eligible. That would be insane.

15-09-2014 7:45pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Text of the Edinburgh Agreement

http://postimg.org/image/mz9tjdpsl/

Great stuff, it's all sorted.

As everyone on this thread will no doubt agree, no British government ever went back on a vague promise.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

If there is a "yes" vote, how long would it take to evict the Scottish MPs from the house of commons?

After the negotiation period and probably the day Scotland declares independence

The 2015 general election will cause a problem and may well be postponed

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 7:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Great stuff, it's all sorted.

As everyone on this thread will no doubt agree, no British government ever went back on a vague promise.

Are you claiming something out of a position of knowledge or wish?

15-09-2014 7:47pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

After the negotiation period and probably the day Scotland declares independence

The 2015 general election will cause a problem and may well be postponed

Yes, it's the 2015 election that should if the vote is yes be a dual election with the Scottish MPs (MSPs) staying north of the border.

Fratton Fred · 15-09-2014 7:52pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If there is a "yes" vote, how long would it take to evict the Scottish MPs from the house of commons?

Unfortunately, not all of them can be. It looks like Gorgeous George Will still be hanging around.

Kermit.de.frog · 15-09-2014 7:54pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Are you claiming something out of a position of knowledge or wish?

What's your gut feeling on how this referendum will go?

snubbleste · 15-09-2014 7:56pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What's your gut feeling on how this referendum will go?

15-09-2014 7:59pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Unfortunately, not all of them can be. It looks like Gorgeous George Will still be hanging around.

Those Scottish MPs who are part of the British government would have to choose which side of the fence they represent. It's no big deal to select new cabinet members or opposition MPs to continue government BAU.

It would result in major changes to the party representation within the House of Commons without the Scottish MPs, Labour would be big losers.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 8:00pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Unfortunately, not all of them can be. It looks like Gorgeous George Will still be hanging around.

That's because George does not live in Scotland and represents an English constituency

15-09-2014 8:01pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What's your gut feeling on how this referendum will go?

I expect a NO but only because many of the undecided would probably prefer things to stay the same (better the devil you know)

Fratton Fred · 15-09-2014 8:02pm

folbotcar wrote: »

I hope the Scots have the guts to vote yes and end the career of that lying toff. Plus Scotland will be the better for it too. I think the real loser will be England.

Other than Alex Salmond, I can't see any winners.

I'd be interested in your reasoning as to why England would be the real loser.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 8:02pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What's your gut feeling on how this referendum will go?

Gut feeling says a narrow No as the undecided are relentlessly being told to vote no if you are undecided but that may be me rationalising a rejection

One of the guys in work said to me 'Everywhere I go abroad, I always say I am from Scotland and if we vote No, I will have to say 'I am from Scotland but I voted Yes''

Fratton Fred · 15-09-2014 8:03pm

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

That's because George does not live in Scotland and represents an English constituency

No, surely not. I thought England ruled Scotland?

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 8:05pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, surely not. I thought England ruled Scotland?

Do you work for the No side as you are deliberately misrepresenting things?

15-09-2014 8:09pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Those Scottish MPs who are part of the British government would have to choose which side of the fence they represent. It's no big deal to select new cabinet members or opposition MPs to continue government BAU.

It would result in major changes to the party representation within the House of Commons without the Scottish MPs, Labour would be big losers.

I think there would be quite a radical shake up both sides of the border in terms of politics. The current narrative is too simplistic.

A Dub in Glasgo · 15-09-2014 8:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think there would be quite a radical shake up both sides of the border in terms of politics. The current narrative is too simplistic.

The biggest electoral change will be the introduction of PR in Scotland (as it is used in the Scottish Parliament elections). The FPTP system is a discredited system

Scottish Independence discussion area

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