Scottish Independence discussion area

First Up

Happyman42 wrote: »

More silly scaremongering, 50% or more of the raw materials I use are imported from UK businesses. It is not inconvenient in any way, or unattractive and they are glad of the business as long as I pay.

But what if you could source them locally....?

smcgiff

I'd be very impressed with Scotland if they vote yes considering the bribery (extra powers) and scaremongering ( depression around the corner and invasion by Russia).

Interesting times.

WesternZulu

If I was Scottish and undecided I would probably vote YES...the media is so biased in trying their best to encourage a NO vote through lies and out-and-out scaremongering that it is beyond patronizing!

It's like a relationship where one of those involved has taken the other for granted, and when threatened with a breakup tries to encourage the other person that they simply cannot function without them.

Barely There

If the 'No' vote isn't above the 60% mark on Thursday, I'll be very surprised.

Happyman42

First Up wrote: »

But what if you could source them locally....?

My point is, business is business. It isn't that big an inconvenience, it isn't inconvenient at all, it's just another thing you have to do.

First Up

Happyman42 wrote: »

My point is, business is business. It isn't that big an inconvenience, it isn't inconvenient at all, it's just another thing you have to do.

But only if you HAVE to. There are few products produced in Scotland that are not also produced in England. You mention importing raw materials and it may be that there are some such that are unique to Scotland. But for manufactured products or traded services, Scottish companies are in direct competition with English counterparts.

At present, a buyer in England can buy from a supplier in Nottingham or Glasgow with equal ease. If Scotland is a separate country that will no longer be the case and that brings a certain risk. I'm not suggesting that English importers would be acting for political reasons - just simple practicality. If you can buy in sterling and avoid additional paperwork, it may make the Scottish supplier less attractive.

Any Scottish company with customers in England should have already considered this and I would be surprised if they were not already trying to re-assure them and address any concerns. But it is significant that the voice of Scottish business is almost unanimously opposed to independence - because they see the risks. Many smaller Scottish companies are dependent on their UK business and are not export oriented beyond these islands. They would face big problems if they lost English customers.

It is also worth remembering that companies in an independent Scotland will no longer have the inside track in selling to the UK government and will cede advantage to English and Welsh competitors. This will reduce Scotland's attractiveness for some categories of FDI. You may remember that years ago Digital Equipment closed in Galway and moved to Scotland and one of the main reasons quoted was that the move would give them access to UK government contracts.

housetypeb

Jeez, the country next door changed their currency,we can never do business with them ever again-it's just too hard.

WesternZulu

I find the whole thing very hypocritical in terms of the very reasons that the English media and politicians are saying that Scotland should stay in the Union are the very reasons why the UK should stay in Europe, but they are pushing in the opposite direction in that respect.

They are very biased in how they portray the negatives of Scotland leaving, and the positives of the UK leaving Europe.

Francie Barrett

I haven't really been following this, but it does sound like the No side should win out by a fairly narrow margin, is that still correct?

Also, if Scotland rejects independence, is this the end for the SNP? Surely another referendum would not be allowed for at least another 30 years?

2ndcoming

The closer the result probably means the sooner another referendum would be held.

A landslide either way would settle the issue.

A Dub in Glasgo

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I haven't really been following this, but it does sound like the No side should win out by a fairly narrow margin, is that still correct?

Also, if Scotland rejects independence, is this the end for the SNP? Surely another referendum would not be allowed for at least another 30 years?

The unfortunate thing is it is looking at the demographics of the vote, the majority of older people are voting No as they are more risk averse. The No side have played on this.

If it is a close one for No and especially if the Westminster parties slide Scotland down the agenda, I can certainly see another referendum. The next time, I don't think Westminster will agree to a legal one.

Happyman42

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The unfortunate thing is it is looking at the demographics of the vote, the majority of older people are voting No as they are more risk averse. The No side have played on this.

If it is a close one for No and especially if the Westminster parties slide Scotland down the agenda, I can certainly see another referendum. The next time, I don't think Westminster will agree to a legal one.

Was listening to a piece about the 'unknowns'...people who have never voted before and the fact that the polls are to be treated with a pinch of salt on this one because there is nothing to measure against as this is the first referendum on this.
The 'unknowns' seem to be centred in the areas where the Yes campaign has most support.
How they vote is pivotal.
Disregarding the polls and trying to remain neutral, there is an air of confidence about the Yes campaign that seems to be coming from what they can see on the ground and they have huge numbers out on the canvas.

Fascinating few days ahead for election junkies!

snubbleste

2ndcoming wrote: »

The closer the result probably means the sooner another referendum would be held.
A landslide either way would settle the issue.

Why

Salmond already stated there won't be another for at least 20 years.

kingchess

all the vows to give extra power to Scotland by the party leaders can be watered down by their own party members in Westminister(some tory backbenchers are already complaining),no government in the world will give away it own power if it can help it,and even if it does,then it will have to give the same powers to England,Wales and N. Ireland which changes the dynamics of the UK anyway,

First Up

housetypeb wrote: »

Jeez, the country next door changed their currency,we can never do business with them ever again-it's just too hard.

Not too hard - just that bit harder and sometimes in business that can be enough. Don't you think English companies will also be looking at this and seeing how they can use it to gain advantage over their Scottish competitors?

Satriale

First Up

Satriale wrote: »

I prefer Dick Gaughan's version.

smcgiff

Quick Question for any geography buffs.

If Scotland leaves the UK what % of the 'British Isles' area wise will be made up by the rUK. I'm guessing ROI and Scotland would make up approx 50% - maybe slightly under.

Slightly off topic

Michael D Not Higgins

smcgiff wrote: »

Quick Question for any geography buffs.

If Scotland leaves the UK what % of the 'British Isles' area wise will be made up by the rUK. I'm guessing ROI and Scotland would make up approx 50% - maybe slightly under.

Slightly off topic

Republic of Ireland: 70,273 km^2
Scotland: 78,387 km^2
British Isles: 315,130 km^2

Ireland + Scotland: 47%

Long Gone

smcgiff wrote: »

Quick Question for any geography buffs.

If Scotland leaves the UK what % of the 'British Isles' area wise will be made up by the rUK. I'm guessing ROI and Scotland would make up approx 50% - maybe slightly under.

Slightly off topic

I'm not known as a raving Irish nationalist, but even I have always rejected the term "British Isles" to refer to the UK and Ireland. The island of Ireland is just that - It is not in any sense a British Isle ! .

Long Gone

Long Gone wrote: »

I'm not known as a raving Irish nationalist, but even I have always rejected the term "British Isles" to refer to the UK and Ireland. The island of Ireland is just that - It is not in any sense a British Isle ! .

To be fair he put the term in quotes.

It's hard to see rUK as a viable entity post Scottish independence. In England certainly there will be a growing question mark around the North. Not sure if the English can declare independence from the UK but after the dust settles on a split with scotland you can guarantee they would if given the chance.

Long Gone

gladrags wrote: »

Bob Geldof !

The no crowd will try anything

June Sarpong was there speaking as well - That should definately swing it for the "No" / Better Together side.

Long Gone

Deleted User wrote: »

To be fair he put the term in quotes.

It's hard to see rUK as a viable entity post Scottish independence. In England certainly there will be a growing question mark around the North. Not sure if the English can declare independence from the UK but after the dust settles on a split with scotland you can guarantee they would if given the chance.

Fair enough. I don't agree that the UK is not viable without Scotland - In some ways it would be better off and more focused without Scotland, particularly if they INSIST on Scotland take the full consequences of independence and not try to still piggyback on to UK services and opportunities (as they would try to). In any case I expect a decisive NO vote on Thursday.

Madam

Long Gone wrote: »

June Sarpong was there speaking as well - That should definately swing it for the "No" / Better Together side.

I don't think many people here would even know who she is - unless your were being facetious?

Madam

Barely There wrote: »

If the 'No' vote isn't above the 60% mark on Thursday, I'll be very surprised.

Expect your eyes to be agog on Friday afternoon then.:P I predict 53% for the Yes vote - hopefully.

First Up

Long Gone wrote: »

I'm not known as a raving Irish nationalist, but even I have always rejected the term "British Isles" to refer to the UK and Ireland. The island of Ireland is just that - It is not in any sense a British Isle ! .

Blame the ancient Greeks so.

Happyman42

First Up wrote: »

Blame the ancient Greeks so.

The Greeks were not to know it was going to be misused by an imperialistic, colonising bully.

First Up

Happyman42 wrote: »

The Greeks were not to know it was going to be misused by an imperialistic, colonising bully.

How is it being misused?

tvc15

First Up wrote: »

Blame the ancient Greeks so.

That argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny or answer why it came back into use and by whom

Barely There

tvc15 wrote: »

That argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny or answer why it came back into use and by whom

When was it not in use?

First Up

tvc15 wrote: »

That argument doesn't really stand up to scrutiny or answer why it came back into use and by whom

Oh come on. It has been used in various forms and by just about everyone for about fifteen hundred years.

Happyman42

First Up wrote: »

How is it being misused?

Lighten up...I was being flippant.

Long Gone

Madam wrote: »

Expect your eyes to be agog on Friday afternoon then.:P I predict 53% for the Yes vote - hopefully.

No chance - It'll be closer to 60% for NO.

Long Gone

First Up wrote: »

Blame the ancient Greeks so.

You can't blame the ancient Greeks for the use of a term in modern times.

tvc15

Barely There wrote: »

When was it not in use?

Off topic so i shouldn't have replied in the first place but


The term "British Isles" entered the English language in the 17th century to refer to Great Britain, Ireland and the surrounding islands; it did not enter common usage until the first half of the 19th centur

bilston

I think it is a disgrace that people born and bred in Scotland but now living elsewhere aren't allowed to vote.

Fair enough if you are voting for a government or council for five years, in that instance it is fair for people not currently residing in a country to vote. That makes sense.

However this referendum has the potential to change Scotland forever, I don't understand why say a student from Belfast living and studying in Glasgow should be able to cast a vote while someone born and brought up in Aberdeen but now working in London (while remaining proud to be Scottish) can't. I'd be pretty miffed if I were Scottish and not allowed a say in the future of my country.

Madam

bilston wrote: »

I think it is a disgrace that people born and bred in Scotland but now living elsewhere aren't allowed to vote.

Fair enough if you are voting for a government or council for five years, in that instance it is fair for people not currently residing in a country to vote. That makes sense.

However this referendum has the potential to change Scotland forever, I don't understand why say a student from Belfast living and studying in Glasgow should be able to cast a vote while someone born and brought up in Aberdeen but now working in London (while remaining proud to be Scottish) can't. I'd be pretty miffed if I were Scottish and not allowed a say in the future of my country.

I believe it it is right and proper that people who reside and contribute to Scotland should the only people allowed to vote. Why should someone who has lived in London for 30 years have a say in the future of a country they left years ago?

Dublin Red Devil

I think Scotland will vote No. At the end of the day there is just too much uncertainty and ultimately fear of change that will convince Scots to stay in the Union.

bilston

Madam wrote: »

I believe it it is right and proper that people who reside and contribute to Scotland should the only people allowed to vote. Why should someone who has lived in London for 30 years have a say in the future of a country they left years ago?

Well as I tried to explain this isn't an election to choose a government that will make decisions that impact only the people who live in Scotland.

This is a referendum that will potentially change Scotland forever. If I was Scottish I'd want a say in that.

bilston

Madam wrote: »

I believe it it is right and proper that people who reside and contribute to Scotland should the only people allowed to vote. Why should someone who has lived in London for 30 years have a say in the future of a country they left years ago?

I would point out (and I'm being very pedantic here I know!) but if people who contribute to Scotland were all allowed a vote then the whole UK would surely be entitled to have a say.

I don't actually think they should by the way of course.

A Dub in Glasgo

bilston wrote: »

Well as I tried to explain this isn't an election to choose a government that will make decisions that impact only the people who live in Scotland.

This is a referendum that will potentially change Scotland forever. If I was Scottish I'd want a say in that.

Everybody knew that there was going to be a referendum in the term of the present Scottish Government since they were elected in 2011. The date of the referendum & criteria for voting has been known since 2012

That gives plenty of time for any Scottish person who really wanted to vote one way or the other to make plans and become resident of Scotland.

I Heart Internet

I think it'll be a No.

A Dub in Glasgo

bilston wrote: »

I would point out (and I'm being very pedantic here I know!) but if people who contribute to Scotland were all allowed a vote then the whole UK would surely be entitled to have a say.

I don't actually think they should by the way of course.

Just as well as you would be incorrect in your assumption

The_Captain

I don't really care on the issue one way or another, but I find it very interesting to watch the establishment (or whatever you want to call it) show its true power and influence on this. ALL the UK political parties are united, the BBC and mainstream media are all compeltely toeing the government line, business chiefs and celebrities are popping out of the woodwork to speak up for the government's position.

It's almost scary watching this huge political entity showing the level of control it has.

Although ironically enough, the huge No vote bias in the UK just seems to be steeling Scots for a Yes vote.

Assuming Scotland votes Yes, can/will the Westminster government just not allow the secession, or find a reason to delay/impede it?

First Up

tvc15 wrote: »

Off topic so i shouldn't have replied in the first place but


The term "British Isles" entered the English language in the 17th century to refer to Great Britain, Ireland and the surrounding islands; it did not enter common usage until the first half of the 19th centur

We could have an academic discussion about that but it would be academic and irrelevant to this discussion. The British Isles will be called the British Isles irrespective of Thursday's result.

Iwasfrozen

The_Captain wrote: »

I don't really care on the issue one way or another, but I find it very interesting to watch the establishment (or whatever you want to call it) show its true power and influence on this. ALL the UK political parties are united, the BBC and mainstream media are all compeltely toeing the government line, business chiefs and celebrities are popping out of the woodwork to speak up for the government's position.

It's almost scary watching this huge political entity showing the level of control it has.

Although ironically enough, the huge No vote bias in the UK just seems to be steeling Scots for a Yes vote.

Assuming Scotland votes Yes, can/will the Westminster government just not allow the secession, or find a reason to delay/impede it?

You ever think there isn't an establishment, that every organisation that opposes Scottish independence is doing so for their own reasons and you're just being paranoid? Just a thought..

First Up

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You ever think there isn't an establishment, that every organisation that opposes Scottish independence is doing so for their own reasons and you're just being paranoid? Just a thought..

The notion (however incoherently expressed) that an independent Scotland will somehow be free from or independent of "the establishment" is one of the more (of many) ridiculous beliefs from the Yes side.

The Establishment (aka government, public services, industry and the financial system) is what makes a country what it is. If you want to be free of "the establishment", there are plenty of impoverished and backward countries to choose from. If you want to live to the standards of a developed country, then you will be living in a country with a strong "establishment". Not perfect, but by a long way, the best anybody has come up with so far.

It is depressing and scary to think that future generations of Scots are at the mercy of some of the ill-informed, half baked, superficial and frivolous arguments such as those being bandied around here.

Iwasfrozen

First Up wrote: »

The notion (however incoherently expressed) that an independent Scotland will somehow be free from or independent of "the establishment" is one of the more (of many) ridiculous beliefs from the Yes side.

The Establishment (aka government, public services, industry and the financial system) is what makes a country what it is. If you want to be free of "the establishment", there are plenty of impoverished and backward countries to choose from. If you want to live to the standards of a developed country, then you will be living in a country with a strong "establishment". Not perfect, but by a long way, the best anybody has come up with so far.

It is depressing and scary to think that future generations of Scots are at the mercy of some of the ill-informed, half baked, superficial and frivolous arguments such as those being bandied around here.

But you see it's the evil colonial British establishment who are oppressing the Scottish people.

Because apparently David Cameron has direct influence over the BBC, J.K. Rowling, Bob Geldof, most of the major newspapers (ha he wishes) and God only knows what else...

bilston

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Just as well as you would be incorrect in your assumption

So UK taxpayers taxes aren't spent across the whole of the UK?

Gosub

Although I would like to see Scotland break the chains, I think it will be a no vote on the day. At which point any singing of 'Scotland the brave' will be a little farcical.

Just MHO.