Scottish Independence discussion area

R P McMurphy

R P McMurphy wrote: »

The bookies will adjust according to where the money is going and lay off on the exchanges to cover. Odds alcan be incorrect and offer decent value in some cases. Look at odds on the English team whenever they play. Patriotic money driving the price down

This isn't how bookies work

WakeUp

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This isn't how bookies work

To an extent it is they do react to where the money is going. but as we know that doesn't mean they are right.

bmm

The scaremongering of the No campaign reminds me of the Yes campaigners of the Lisbon treaty in Ireland in 2008. Unfortunately the Scots will not be able to see these lies for what they are.

irishfeen

bmm wrote: »

The scaremongering of the No campaign reminds me of the Yes campaigners of the Lisbon treaty in Ireland in 2008. Unfortunately the Scots will not be able to see these lies for what they are.

Yep I think the NO side will now win rather easily - fear will prevent undecideds from taking the leap.

fiachr_a

If they vote Yes, us and Scotland will be the Slovakia and Slovenia of Western Europe!

on the river

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEOOZDbMrgE

BringBackMick

The big question is whether Cameron can remain as British PM come Friday morning?

R P McMurphy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This isn't how bookies work

Well of course for the initial pricing some bookies will guage prices and put them up. Others follow suit looking at levels of betting and prices matched in bookies and exchanges. Prices move because too much money has been bet on one outcome giving the bookie too much of a liability. To reduce liability, some lay off on exchanges and all by boosting the price on the opposite outcome. That is how bookies operate. Anyone that doesn't try to balance the book won't be in business long

charlietheminxx

They should have Braveheart on a loop outside the polling stations and play The Clansman by Iron Maiden on a loop across radio that day to get a few extra yes votes :P

on the river

charlietheminxx wrote: »

They should have Braveheart on a loop outside the polling stations and play The Clansman by Iron Maiden on a loop across radio that day to get a few extra yes votes :P

Yes go ahead mock Braveheart for what he stood for. He had the courage and pride in the Scottish Nation to fight for its freedom.

This is Scotland change to right the wrongs of the past and create a new nation, where Scottish people decide.
For far too long Scotland has been bullied and dominated by Westminster and their outrageous policies. Scotland society today is full of diverse cultures and religions. However the ethos of pride and courage remains.
The vow ,which were printed in todays papers is a shambolic attempt to reel in the Scottish people to the same old corrupt politics.

Robert the Bruce was the first of many Scottish people to revolt against English powers and proclaim a existing SCOTTISH Kingship.

Its past Scotland join its Gaelic neighbours and take its place among the independent nations.

I say YES to equality
I say Yes to Freedom
I say Yes to Scotland.

Iwasfrozen

Are you even allowed to vote?

on the river

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Are you even allowed to vote?

YES YES YES

Kermit.de.frog

Slightly odd phrasing for a poll question

"Scotland deserves to be an independent country" agree 26% disagree 41% in GB-wide ComRes poll for ITV News


All this patronising and condescension during the campaign will surely leave a bitter pill for the yes side and maybe most Scots I would suggest if it is a no vote.

Final opinion poll at 9 pm I think.

Highflyer13

on the river wrote: »

Yes go ahead mock Braveheart for what he stood for. He had the courage and pride in the Scottish Nation to fight for its freedom.

This is Scotland change to right the wrongs of the past and create a new nation, where Scottish people decide.
For far too long Scotland has been bullied and dominated by Westminster and their outrageous policies. Scotland society today is full of diverse cultures and religions. However the ethos of pride and courage remains.
The vow ,which were printed in todays papers is a shambolic attempt to reel in the Scottish people to the same old corrupt politics.

Robert the Bruce was the first of many Scottish people to revolt against English powers and proclaim a existing SCOTTISH Kingship.

Its past Scotland join its Gaelic neighbours and take its place among the independent nations.

I say YES to equality
I say Yes to Freedom
I say Yes to Scotland.

For some reason I read this post in a strong Scottish accent in my head.

Good luck Scotsmen and Scotswomen. I hope ye get your Independence.

efb

No gets Devo Max now. Win win for Salmond

Nodin

irishfeen wrote: »

Yep I think the NO side will now win rather easily - fear will prevent undecideds from taking the leap.

Alas, too true I fear.

statesaver

Scotland the brave to bottle it 60% - 40% No.

Really hope i'm wrong but .....

snubbleste

BringBackMick wrote: »

The big question is whether Cameron can remain as British PM come Friday morning?

Who is next in line?
William Hague, George Osborne? :eek:

statesaver

snubbleste wrote: »

Who is next in line?
William Hague, George Osborne? :eek:

Boris Johnson :eek::D

A Dub in Glasgo

efb wrote: »

No gets Devo Max now. Win win for Salmond

It is not Devo Max, it is a very much watered down more powers which will be even more watered down on it passage (if it gets started) through Westminster and the House of Lords!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92173610&postcount=1352

BringBackMick

BringBackMick wrote: »

The big question is whether Cameron can remain as British PM come Friday morning?

I don't see any reason for him to go because of a YES result, but he may not be around for the next general election.

Scotland isn't the only show in town!

Iwasfrozen

Sunday Telegraph puts the No side 8 points ahead! If accurate it will be very hard for the Yes side to claw back before Thursday.

Einhard

Piliger wrote: »

I agree completely. It makes me proud that our ancestors had the balls to break away from the British Empire, and I have nothing against the British. The Scots are such a distinctive and proud nation, it is horrible to see them being ruled for so many hundreds of years by Westminster and still unable to bring themselves to break free of the Empire's shilling.

Hmmm, there seems to be quite a few posters here who misunderstand Scotland's position and role within the UK. They argue as if Scotland was forced into the Union, as if Scotland consistently chafed against the Union but was prevented from seceding because of a more powerful, manipulative, and bullying neighbour.

The fact is that Scotland was the British Empire, and the British Empire was Scotland. It was never a case, like Ireland, of a hostile populace kept subjugated by threats of force and violence. Scotland and the Scottish participated actively and enthusiastically in the imperial project, and benefitted from that project. To claim otherwise, and attempt to paint the English (Westminster establishment etc) as the villains of the piece is historical hogwash.

statesaver

efb wrote: »

No gets Devo Max now. Win win for Salmond

A lot of the "promises" London have made to the No side in the past week will be quietly reneged upon after the No vote is secured.

To scare the bejaysus out of the undecided and throw a few "promises" into the mix was the plan of action for this week and i think it will be successful
Scare tactics will win the day

blinding

statesaver wrote: »

Boris Johnson :eek::D

There is a good chance the Boris Johnson will be the next Tory leader and therefore a possible/probable future UK Prime Minister,

If I were A Scot and thought about that, then I know that I would be voting Yes to avoid Bullingdon Tories Lording it over me.

Scots; Vote to have a say on the people that govern your country.

bilston

Piliger wrote: »

I agree completely. It makes me proud that our ancestors had the balls to break away from the British Empire, and I have nothing against the British. The Scots are such a distinctive and proud nation, it is horrible to see them being ruled for so many hundreds of years by Westminster and still unable to bring themselves to break free of the Empire's shilling.

This always intrigues me given that history shows that the Scottish and Irish (particularly the Scots) were key players in the creation and sustaining of the British empire.

WesternZulu

bilston wrote: »

This always intrigues me given that history shows that the Scottish and Irish (particularly the Scots) were key players in the creation and sustaining of the British empire.

I agree with the Scottish part.

However, the Irish were only key players if constant uprisings and rebellions against the crown were considered crucial in sustaining the empire...which I very much doubt it was.

Einhard

Einhard wrote: »

The fact is that Scotland was the British Empire, and the British Empire was Scotland. It was never a case, like Ireland, of a hostile populace kept subjugated by threats of force and violence. Scotland and the Scottish participated actively and enthusiastically in the imperial project, and benefitted from that project. To claim otherwise, and attempt to paint the English (Westminster establishment etc) as the villains of the piece is historical hogwash.

That seems to be "the inconvenient truth" I know from first hand experience that Scottish people work in all levels of government and in the civil service, in fact in many areas they have a larger representation than they would have if based on purely on population ratios.

Scottish nationalism only resurfaced in the 1970s when the North sea oil bonanza became apparent and the proceeds were going south!

bilston

WesternZulu wrote: »

I agree with the Scottish part.

However, the Irish were only key players if constant uprisings and rebellions against the crown were considered crucial in sustaining the empire...which I very much doubt it was.

Well I'm talking more about individuals with Ireland (Establishment Irish) but of course there were plenty of Irishmen in the British Army as well.

bilston

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see any reason for him to go because of a YES result, but he may not be around for the next general election.

Scotland isn't the only show in town!

I'd say Cameron would be in trouble. Don't forget he refused to offer Devo Plus as an option in the referendum, if he had I doubt independence would be a serious possibility two days out from the vote.

Even disregarding that it won't look good on his CV to be the Conservative PM who lost Scotland!

There is a potential political earthquake on the cards in the UK on Friday.

WesternZulu

bilston wrote: »

Well I'm talking more about individuals with Ireland (Establishment Irish) but of course there were plenty of Irishmen in the British Army as well.

Well in WW1 that was very much driven by the 'promise' of Home Rule.

Einhard

The thing that really gets me about this campaign, is the shrillness of the Yes campaign in its accusations of manipulation and scaremongering by an "establishment"

Firstly, The SNP is the establishment in Scotland! Not only is it the governing party, but it holds a comfortable majority in parliament, and won a huge victory over the other parties in the 2011 elections. To claim therefore that the SNP is fighting the man as some are wont to claim is ridiculous. The SNP is the man.

Secondly, the SNP and supporters have some nerve in attacking business leaders for voicing concerns about a Yes vote. They're manipulating the electorate; they're undermining democracy etc. And yet, just yesterday Alex Salmond hosts a function comprised of business leaders. They're message? Vote Yes! So we have the SNP attacking the No side for the opinions of elements of the business community, yet at the very same time actively courting and broadcasting those business opinion which accord with its point of view. Alex Salmond's nerve and hypocrisy is astonishing.

Thirdly, I've noticed in a personal capacity that the Yes side seems to be far more hostile and angry in the expression of its views. I know a few Scots, and those advocating Yes have been extremely hostile in their comments and postings, online and in person, about the referendum. The Yes side are traitors and Quislings; the English, and especially the Tories are hated and despised. A girl I know went home for a wedding at the weekend, and her brother had to be thrown out because he was verbally attacking people who intended to vote Yes, calling them traitors and "Orange Baxtards" Yes leaders, such as Alistair Darling have been jostled and pushed and harassed by No campiagners on the street, and the atmosphere at John Prescott's event last week was, by all accounts, incredible hostile and intimidatory. I personally know two Scots who have told me that they won't admit to being Yes supports because they're afraid of the reaction from others in their community. Which is downright shameful.

I'm not Scottish, and I don't particularly care what way the vote goes. What annoys me intensely though, about this campaign and other ones held in Ireland elsewhere, is how one side, always defining itself as the "anti-Establishment" one, constantly gets away with hypocritical, deceitful posturings, and attacks on the opposition that would be criticised were it vice versa.

Iwasfrozen

WesternZulu wrote: »

Well in WW1 that was very much driven by the 'promise' of Home Rule.

No one is talking about WWI dude, the British Empire was partially built with Irish sweat. Sure wasn't Arthur Wellesley even one of our own.

snubbleste

Einhard wrote: »

...
.. What annoys me intensely though, about this campaign and other ones held in Ireland elsewhere, is how one side, always defining itself as the "anti-Establishment" one, constantly gets away with hypocritical, deceitful posturings, and attacks on the opposition that would be criticised were it vice versa.

Eh, here we have "Vote Yes to Lisbon for Jobs". If you don't vote Yes, it'll be a mistake and you'll have to vote again

kingchess

in the 19 century around 40 percent of the British army were made up of Irish born soldiers,

WesternZulu

Einhard wrote: »

The thing that really gets me about this campaign, is the shrillness of the Yes campaign in its accusations of manipulation and scaremongering by an "establishment"

Firstly, The SNP is the establishment in Scotland! Not only is it the governing party, but it holds a comfortable majority in parliament, and won a huge victory over the other parties in the 2011 elections. To claim therefore that the SNP is fighting the man as some are wont to claim is ridiculous. The SNP is the man.

Secondly, the SNP and supporters have some nerve in attacking business leaders for voicing concerns about a Yes vote. They're manipulating the electorate; they're undermining democracy etc. And yet, just yesterday Alex Salmond hosts a function comprised of business leaders. They're message? Vote Yes! So we have the SNP attacking the No side for the opinions of elements of the business community, yet at the very same time actively courting and broadcasting those business opinion which accord with its point of view. Alex Salmond's nerve and hypocrisy is astonishing.

Thirdly, I've noticed in a personal capacity that the Yes side seems to be far more hostile and angry in the expression of its views. I know a few Scots, and those advocating Yes have been extremely hostile in their comments and postings, online and in person, about the referendum. The Yes side are traitors and Quislings; the English, and especially the Tories are hated and despised. A girl I know went home for a wedding at the weekend, and her brother had to be thrown out because he was verbally attacking people who intended to vote Yes, calling them traitors and "Orange Baxtards" Yes leaders, such as Alistair Darling have been jostled and pushed and harassed by No campiagners on the street, and the atmosphere at John Prescott's event last week was, by all accounts, incredible hostile and intimidatory. I personally know two Scots who have told me that they won't admit to being Yes supports because they're afraid of the reaction from others in their community. Which is downright shameful.

I'm not Scottish, and I don't particularly care what way the vote goes. What annoys me intensely though, about this campaign and other ones held in Ireland elsewhere, is how one side, always defining itself as the "anti-Establishment" one, constantly gets away with hypocritical, deceitful posturings, and attacks on the opposition that would be criticised were it vice versa.

The most annoying thing about the whole thing is that a lot of the NO side in the campaign (south of the border) are playing the exact same cards as the SNP to get the UK out of the EU...the hypocrisy is delicious.

So no one side is more righteous than the other.
Both will say whatever it takes to win.

bilston

WesternZulu wrote: »

Well in WW1 that was very much driven by the 'promise' of Home Rule.

Well that of course is well documented but for example thousands of Irishmen served in India and fought in the Boer War which were very much colonial campaigns.

Obviously going a bit OT here mind.

eire4

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No one is talking about WWI dude, the British Empire was partially built with Irish sweat. Sure wasn't Arthur Wellesley even one of our own.

He was born in Dublin I believe yes. Doesn't make him one of our own to put it mildly though.

charlietheminxx

on the river wrote: »

Yes go ahead mock Braveheart for what he stood for. He had the courage and pride in the Scottish Nation to fight for its freedom.

This is Scotland change to right the wrongs of the past and create a new nation, where Scottish people decide.
For far too long Scotland has been bullied and dominated by Westminster and their outrageous policies. Scotland society today is full of diverse cultures and religions. However the ethos of pride and courage remains.
The vow ,which were printed in todays papers is a shambolic attempt to reel in the Scottish people to the same old corrupt politics.

Robert the Bruce was the first of many Scottish people to revolt against English powers and proclaim a existing SCOTTISH Kingship.

Its past Scotland join its Gaelic neighbours and take its place among the independent nations.

I say YES to equality
I say Yes to Freedom
I say Yes to Scotland.

I actually would vote yes if I was Scottish. Perhaps my tone was wrong!

Iwasfrozen

eire4 wrote: »

He was born in Dublin I believe yes. Doesn't make him one of our own to put it mildly though.

Of course he is. What else would he be?

eire4

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course he is. What else would he be?

British!

kingchess

just because you are born in a stable does not mean you are a horse

bilston

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course he is. What else would he be?

I agree with you, you can't deny someone's nationality just because you disagree with their politics.

That said Wellington himself didn't appear to be too proud of his Irish roots.

Iwasfrozen

eire4 wrote: »

British!

He was obviously both. That's the point I'm making Irish people helped build the British Empire and served in every rank from foot soldier to General.

A Dub in Glasgo

Einhard wrote: »

The thing that really gets me about this campaign, is the shrillness of the Yes campaign in its accusations of manipulation and scaremongering by an "establishment"

The SNP may be in Government in Scotland but most of the print media and TV (Scotland & UK wide) are against Independence. The vast majority of the political parties in Scotland and across the UK are against Independence. Most large corporations & bankers who have made an announcement have come out against Independence. Most of the International politicians and Bureaucrats who have made an announcement are against Independence.

By any reckoning that is most of the 'establishment'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014

SafeSurfer

Einhard wrote: »

The thing that really gets me about this campaign, is the shrillness of the Yes campaign in its accusations of manipulation and scaremongering by an "establishment"

Firstly, The SNP is the establishment in Scotland! Not only is it the governing party, but it holds a comfortable majority in parliament, and won a huge victory over the other parties in the 2011 elections. To claim therefore that the SNP is fighting the man as some are wont to claim is ridiculous. The SNP is the man.

Secondly, the SNP and supporters have some nerve in attacking business leaders for voicing concerns about a Yes vote. They're manipulating the electorate; they're undermining democracy etc. And yet, just yesterday Alex Salmond hosts a function comprised of business leaders. They're message? Vote Yes! So we have the SNP attacking the No side for the opinions of elements of the business community, yet at the very same time actively courting and broadcasting those business opinion which accord with its point of view. Alex Salmond's nerve and hypocrisy is astonishing.

Thirdly, I've noticed in a personal capacity that the Yes side seems to be far more hostile and angry in the expression of its views. I know a few Scots, and those advocating Yes have been extremely hostile in their comments and postings, online and in person, about the referendum. The Yes side are traitors and Quislings; the English, and especially the Tories are hated and despised. A girl I know went home for a wedding at the weekend, and her brother had to be thrown out because he was verbally attacking people who intended to vote Yes, calling them traitors and "Orange Baxtards" Yes leaders, such as Alistair Darling have been jostled and pushed and harassed by No campiagners on the street, and the atmosphere at John Prescott's event last week was, by all accounts, incredible hostile and intimidatory. I personally know two Scots who have told me that they won't admit to being Yes supports because they're afraid of the reaction from others in their community. Which is downright shameful.

I'm not Scottish, and I don't particularly care what way the vote goes. What annoys me intensely though, about this campaign and other ones held in Ireland elsewhere, is how one side, always defining itself as the "anti-Establishment" one, constantly gets away with hypocritical, deceitful posturings, and attacks on the opposition that would be criticised were it vice versa.

I am confused by your post. You say that the yes side is the most vitriolic and go on to include Alastair Darling as a leader of the Yes campaign. Surely u mean the No campaign, "better together".

eire4

bilston wrote: »

I agree with you, you can't deny someone's nationality just because you disagree with their politics.

That said Wellington himself didn't appear to be too proud of his Irish roots.

It is not a case of denying someone their nationality. Someones place of birth does not automatically mean that is their nationality. There are many reasons why people can be born in a country different from the nationality that they identify and see themselves as.
Wellington clearly saw himself as British.

eire4

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

He was obviously both. That's the point I'm making Irish people helped build the British Empire and served in every rank from foot soldier to General.

The only thing obvious to me is he saw himself as British.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Of course he is. What else would he be?

Did the man himself even say 'Just because one is born in a barn does not make one a horse'?

Henry Sidney

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Did the man himself even say 'Just because one is born in a barn does not make one a horse'?

No he didn't, he never said it