Scottish Independence discussion area

SpaceTime

Berserker wrote: »

A person who has taken in all the pros and cons of independence and chooses to vote 'No' or 'Yes' on the final day, is a mature intelligent voter not a chicken. Categorizing people who vote against your sentiment on the matter, in such a negative way, says a lot more about you than them, in a negative sense.

And picking me up on it in such a grumpy manner says a lot about your sentiment too.

I am making a comment on a discussion forum, not submitting a thesis on the pros and cons of Scottish independence. I'm under absolutely no obligation to be fair, balanced or to refrain from expressing my views or opinions.

My point is that in any referendum on an issue where substantial change is involved, particularly where there's no consensus opinion, a lot of people will be quite bullish about opting for change, then when it comes to actually putting an X in the box will default back to the status quo rather than jump into the unknown.

In my opinion, that's 'chickening out' however, it has nothing to do with my view on Scottish independence.

Where public opinion is split down the middle almost 50:50, the status quo will tend to dominate the voting patterns of the undecided.

The Rabbit

Anybody with a decent insight into the situation able to answer my question above?

Sorry, it crossed my mind today and I'm curious now.

eire4

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the liberals and Labour go against their promises, it will kill them in Scotland. Together, they will carry any bill. Remember, there is a coalition government and if the Tories refuse to support a liberal motion, it will bring down the government.

The idea of more devolved powers has been a panic move brought into play only recently when the no side realised they were losing ground very rapidly. No actual bill has been produced and put forward so it is all speculation as to what they will actually be able to produce and what they could actually pass. Given the potential knock on effects elsewhere in the current UK more devolved powers for Scotland is not a slam dunk.

First Up

Happyman42 wrote: »

Stop making stuff up, there has been very little of that in the official debate. It is just a slur and a lie. I think the debate has been hugely informative actually and healthy...certainly healthier than I thought it would be (then Cameron got the wind up him! :rolleyes:)



There you have it...I 'know what I would do'.

I see you are as selective in paraphrasing me as you are in considering the factors to be weighed up in this decision.
But sure if it makes you feel better.....

First Up

eire4 wrote: »

The idea of more devolved powers has been a panic move brought into play only recently when the no side realised they were losing ground very rapidly. No actual bill has been produced and put forward so it is all speculation as to what they will actually be able to produce and what they could actually pass. Given the potential knock on effects elsewhere in the current UK more devolved powers for Scotland is not a slam dunk.

Or a well timed, planned move to sway the undecided when it was too late for the Yes side to respond.......

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Devo max won't change that.

Devo Max is not being offered

Kermit.de.frog

http://oi60.tinypic.com/ei449c.jpg

Fratton Fred

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

http://oi60.tinypic.com/ei449c.jpg

Wow, that's absolutely brilliantly amazing.

Much better than the 96 times it's already been posted.

Happyman42

First Up wrote: »

I see you are as selective in paraphrasing me as you are in considering the factors to be weighed up in this decision.
But sure if it makes you feel better.....

I have weighed up the factors, as much as anyone can and more importantly I can see right there in front of my eyes how the Union has failed Scotland and why so many now want to leave it.
And I don't believe any of the bluster about the Pound or the EU either, because there is a falsehood going about that what is left after Scotland leaves will 'unite' in some way against Scotland's interests, which flies in the face of the FACT that what will be left will be far from 'United'. E.g. The Break-Up will continue apace.

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

I have weighed up the factors, as much as anyone can

Funniest thing I've read all day.

NIMAN

What are the criteria to qualify for a vote in this?

Resident?
What about Scots who might be abroad for a year?
Sean Connery, Billy Connolly etc? i.e. those who live abroad permanently?

A Dub in Glasgo

NIMAN wrote: »

What are the criteria to qualify for a vote in this?

Resident?
What about Scots who might be abroad for a year?
Sean Connery, Billy Connolly etc? i.e. those who live abroad permanently?

Question:

Who can vote in the referendum on Scottish independence?
Answer:

The list of those who are eligible to vote in the referendum is almost the same as for elections to the Scottish Parliament and local authorities, but with the addition of 16 and 17 year olds. Remember that you must register with your local electoral registration office to be able to vote - simple instructions about how to do this can be found on the Electoral Commission website.

The following groups of people can register to vote in the referendum:

British citizens resident in Scotland.
Qualifying Commonwealth citizens resident in Scotland. This means Commonwealth citizens who either have leave to remain in the UK or do not require such leave, and are resident in Scotland.
Citizens of the Republic of Ireland and other EU countries resident in Scotland.
Members of the House of Lords resident in Scotland.
Service/Crown personnel serving in the UK or overseas in the Armed Forces or with Her Majesty’s Government who are registered to vote in Scotland.

Fratton Fred

NIMAN wrote: »

What are the criteria to qualify for a vote in this?

Resident?
What about Scots who might be abroad for a year?
Sean Connery, Billy Connolly etc? i.e. those who live abroad permanently?

You had to be a resident on a certain date, so there's probably more Scots who can't vote than can.

Conversely, if you're not from Scotland and happened to be a resident that day, then you could vote yes and if it starts going horribly wrong, up sticks and move back to Belfast, Bratislava or Brest.

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Funniest thing I've read all day.

Sorry, I should have said

'I have weighed up the factors without any slavish allegiance to monarchies and imperialistic delusions of grandeur'

, just like you Fred.

eire4

First Up wrote: »

Or a well timed, planned move to sway the undecided when it was too late for the Yes side to respond.......

Well it looks to me like a panic move by the no campaign when the saw that they might lose. It was London after all who insisted that tomorrows ballot did not include any other options and was a straight yes or no on Scottish independance.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You had to be a resident on a certain date, so there's probably more Scots who can't vote than can.

I doubt it

A Dub in Glasgo

First Up wrote: »

Or a well timed, planned move to sway the undecided when it was too late for the Yes side to respond.......

You actually believe that?

Fratton Fred

Happyman42 wrote: »

Sorry, I should have said , just like you Fred.

Ooh look, more cliches.

Did you make those up yourself or get them from "republicans with a chip on their shoulder weekly"?

First Up

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You actually believe that?

Dunno but I doubt the three party leaders cobbled it together overnight.

First Up

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ooh look, more cliches.

Did you make those up yourself or get them from "republicans with a chip on their shoulder weekly"?

I'm not sure Happy gives two haggis about Scotland. I sense another agenda.....

Happyman42

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ooh look, more cliches.

Did you make those up yourself or get them from "republicans with a chip on their shoulder weekly"?

How many years have you been on here defending Britain Fred? You maight be redundant soon!

Kermit.de.frog

I actually think this could be a yes vote. Just have a feeling about it.

A Dub in Glasgo

First Up wrote: »

Dunno but I doubt the three party leaders cobbled it together overnight.

It is a rehashed Labour proposal from March. The Tories & the Lib Dems also put proposals together and the Labour one was the weakest in terms of powers.

So cobbled together is a very apt term

NIMAN

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You had to be a resident on a certain date, so there's probably more Scots who can't vote than can.

Conversely, if you're not from Scotland and happened to be a resident that day, then you could vote yes and if it starts going horribly wrong, up sticks and move back to Belfast, Bratislava or Brest.

Find this slightly strange.

So some student from outside of Scotland can vote but true Scots living abroad for years cant? Surely they would want to have a say in how their country decides?

Fallschirmjager

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The complete lack of knowledge in this thread never ceases to amaze me.

A different viewpoint does not equate to a lack of knowledge. A quote you might consider worth remembering, honestly can't remember who wrote it:

You can disagree with another persons opinion. You can disagree with their doctrines. You can't disagree with their experience.

You are speaking as a proud Englishman, good for you and I mean that in all honesty but our experiences in Ireland and the experiences of a lot of nations with the crown is, to be polite, different.

I honestly have no horse in this race, Scotland stays or goes, makes no never mind to me. The real problem is how people have reacted both for and against has IMHO, poisoned the well regardless of the outcome. If the vote is close that is really bad news for everyone, in fact the worst possible outcome in my opinion. I foresee a close no vote and the inevitable lording over the result rather than taking it with humility. It will be seen as a 'rule Britannia' rather than a warning.

After the vote, the reality is comments spoken in the heat of passion can not be unsaid. I have read some outrageous comments on both sides and it's going to take a long time to fix, if that is even possible.

Just my opinion, obviously yours may differ.

A Dub in Glasgo

NIMAN wrote: »

but true Scots living abroad for years cant? Surely they would want to have a say in how their country decides?

Can you explain why you think they should be allowed?

Fratton Fred

NIMAN wrote: »

Find this slightly strange.

So some student from outside of Scotland can vote but true Scots living abroad for years cant? Surely they would want to have a say in how their country decides?

I have a mate in Dublin who is furious about it.

Aongus Von Bismarck

Capital was moving back towards the Pound and companies with Scottish headquarters, on the futures market, as of this morning. Seems like a No vote is going to be the decision.

Happyman42

First Up wrote: »

I'm not sure Happy gives two haggis about Scotland. I sense another agenda.....

Gawd, how tired is that old chestnut?

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I have a mate in Dublin who is furious about it.

If he felt that strongly about it, why did he not make plans to become a resident and get on the Electoral Register?

NIMAN

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Can you explain why you think they should be allowed?

Cos they are Scottish?

If there was a vote for a United Ireland, and I happened to be working in the US for a year while it was taking place, I would want to have a vote in it.

Madam

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I have a mate in Dublin who is furious about it.

His problem - he doesn't contribute to this country - why should he feel he has the right to have a say in its future!?

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Can you explain why you think they should be allowed?

Well it does draw in to question whether or not Scots are happy to be in the union or not. It's not the Scottish people voting, it's the residents of Scotland.

A Dub in Glasgo

NIMAN wrote: »

Cos they are Scottish?

If there was a vote for a United Ireland, and I happened to be working in the US for a year while it was taking place, I would want to have a vote in it.

You may want it and stamp your feet about it but you would not be entitled to it.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

it's the residents of Scotland.

Doh!

Madam

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Well it does draw in to question whether or not Scots are happy to be in the union or not. It's not the Scottish people voting, it's the residents of Scotland.

I would think the Scottish people are in the majority, not the 'residents'.

Fratton Fred

Madam wrote: »

I would think the Scottish people are in the majority, not the 'residents'.

But a lot will get no say.

Barely There

NIMAN wrote: »

Find this slightly strange.

So some student from outside of Scotland can vote but true Scots living abroad for years cant? Surely they would want to have a say in how their country decides?

What are true Scots?
How do you determine who is eligible to vote and who isn't?
Do they have to eat deep fried mars bars and haggis washed down with a can of Iron Bru?

bilston

As I said last night this vote is about the future of Scotland and will have historical ramifications throughout history. This isn't voting in a government for five years. The idea that someone from Scotland but doesn't happen to live there cannot vote seems a bit ridiculous to me. This will decide their nation's future!

However it was decided two years ago and presumably it was agreed by both sides and not one party or one side of the debate.

A Dub in Glasgo

And as I said to you last night

'Everybody knew that there was going to be a referendum in the term of the present Scottish Government since they were elected in 2011. The date of the referendum & criteria for voting has been known since 2012

That gives plenty of time for any Scottish person who really wanted to vote one way or the other to make plans and become resident of Scotland.'

I got no say in the various elections or referendum in Ireland as I was resident in Scotland. Should it work both ways?

bilston

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

And as I said to you last night

'Everybody knew that there was going to be a referendum in the term of the present Scottish Government since they were elected in 2011. The date of the referendum & criteria for voting has been known since 2012

That gives plenty of time for any Scottish person who really wanted to vote one way or the other to make plans and become resident of Scotland.'

I got no say in the various elections or referendum in Ireland as I was resident in Scotland. Should it work both ways?

No you shouldn't have had a vote in an election. As for a referendum, if it was an In/Out referendum on the EU or if it was for a United Ireland or (to play Devil's advocate) to rejoin the United Kingdom then yes you should have a vote.

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

And as I said to you last night

'Everybody knew that there was going to be a referendum in the term of the present Scottish Government since they were elected in 2011. The date of the referendum & criteria for voting has been known since 2012

That gives plenty of time for any Scottish person who really wanted to vote one way or the other to make plans and become resident of Scotland.'

I got no say in the various elections or referendum in Ireland as I was resident in Scotland. Should it work both ways?

So my friend in Dublin, are you proposing he leave his job and move his family back to Dumfries, leave his family in Dublin, unable to support them, or just fiddle the electoral system?

namloc1980

bilston wrote: »

No you shouldn't have had a vote in an election. As for a referendum, if it was an In/Out referendum on the EU or if it was for a United Ireland or (to play Devil's advocate) to rejoin the United Kingdom then yes you should have a vote.

In Ireland you wouldn't get a vote in that scenario.

true Scots

Scotland is a bit like a mirror image of Northern Ireland, but with Highlanders being mainly descended from Irish invaders and lowlanders mainly descendent of Vikings.
The original Scots were replaced by these invaders, it would be interesting to see if anyone has looked into the backgrounds of the yes & no voters to see if there is any tribal connections.

Berserker

NIMAN wrote: »

What are the criteria to qualify for a vote in this?

Resident?
What about Scots who might be abroad for a year?
Sean Connery, Billy Connolly etc? i.e. those who live abroad permanently?

I watched a piece where Billy talked about the referendum and he has a vote but he is not going to cast it. The clip is probably on youtube.

First Up

Happyman42 wrote: »

Gawd, how tired is that old chestnut?

Didn't know it was an old chestnut. Just what I glean from your comments here.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So my friend in Dublin, are you proposing he leave his job and move his family back to Dumfries, leave his family in Dublin, unable to support them

I think it is quite clear that if he wanted to vote in the referendum and felt that strongly about voting, he should have moved back to Scotland to be eligible to vote

bilston

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I think it is quite clear that if he wanted to vote in the referendum and felt that strongly about voting, he should have moved back to Scotland to be eligible to vote

Or the criteria for eligibility could have been extended. Everyone's circumstances are different.

Madam

bilston wrote: »

As I said last night this vote is about the future of Scotland and will have historical ramifications throughout history. This isn't voting in a government for five years. The idea that someone from Scotland but doesn't happen to live there cannot vote seems a bit ridiculous to me. This will decide their nation's future!

However it was decided two years ago and presumably it was agreed by both sides and not one party or one side of the debate.

So btw that premise, I haven't lived in Ireland for over 30 years if for arguments sake there was a referendum in Ireland for unity I should have a vote?

Berserker

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I think it is quite clear that if he wanted to vote in the referendum and felt that strongly about voting, he should have moved back to Scotland to be eligible to vote

A bit unfair if you don't mind me saying so. He could have restrictions due to personal circumstances, ill-health etc.