Scottish Independence discussion area

Johngoose

Could Putin have his eye on Scotland if it will be outside U.K. and E.U. More oil and gas for Russia?;-)

OnTheCouch

Now I'm not particularly interested in politics, but clearly this debate has gone beyond the standard humdrum of a local or even general election.

I would like to see a Yes victory, but of course I am not Scottish nor from Scotland so there are no real-life consequences for me as such.

Alex Salmond, even though he clearly divides opinion, also seems to be an extremely adept politician and to see the gains his campaign has made in the last few months has been extremely impressive.

The No side, with every day that passes, reminds me more and more of a partner in a long-term relationship, who has taken the other one for granted over many years, who dismissed any threats that he or she would be dumped, until one day the penny drops in their head that this may actually come about. The hitherto complancent then partner proceeds to make threat after threat, each one more desperate than the last, often getting quite vicious and personal at the same time.

Now it looks like the No side will indeed win, probably through a combination of people not wanting to abandon their conservative philosophy, a couple of major ambiguous doubts that would come about should the country become independent which have not been sufficiently explained and enormous pressure from the media and certain high-profile figures, the vast majority of whom have spoken out against a division. Even though many have been quite frankly risible, the sheer number has to affect a certain amount of the population. I would imagine a No victory with 55-65 percent of the vote.

Mind you, considering how much the media have been on the No bandwagon, it is frankly staggering how well the Yes vote will do, even if they don't win. I do tend to notice a more neutral ambivalent tone in foreign media, which I suppose is to be expected.

However, whoever wins, it certainly will be a historic day, who would have thought there was so much passion and fervour for an independent Scotland. Should the latter not win, they will almost certainly receive greater autonomy. I would not be surprised either if there was not another referendum in the next 5-10 years, which could possibly have a different result. I think as someone else said, a lot will depend on the reaction of the No supporters after their probable victory, if they start acting in a very condescending matter (which could be very tempting), this could stick in people's minds and spur them into revenge in the future. Should the win be relatively low-key, both sides might stand to benefit from the decision.

Lapin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Anyone watching the debate on channel 4? Talk about a fickle audience. :rolleyes:

Flicking between that one and Newsnight.

Johngoose

Freedddoooommmm

Lnaa

Looking forward to tomorrow night. Hopefully Scotland will pave the way for places like Manchester and Liverpool to take control of their own affairs. Obviously Manchester and Liverpool are never going to become their own countries, nor become independent, so the clamour around their issues is always going to be low key, but these two great cities, and other great cities like Newcastle, Leeds etc. merit an opportunity to get out of London's headlock. Come on Scotland, rattle Westminster into a more equitible solution for all.

iownaphone

Run, and you'll live... at least a while

iownaphone

And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

fryup

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

you're voting no i take it??

Lnaa

iownaphone wrote: »

And dying in your beds, many years from now, would you be willin' to trade ALL the days, from this day to that, for one chance, just one chance, to come back here and tell our enemies that they may take our lives, but they'll never take... OUR FREEDOM!

Different country but this beats that hands down...

"Look what these bastards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English — and that's who you are playing this afternoon."

iownaphone

fryup wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

you're voting no i take it??

All men betray. All lose heart.

Satriale

keeponhurling

If there's a no vote , at least I'll never again have to listen to a Scotsman trying to tell me they're a real country

Lnaa

Interesting to see how Glasgow holds more sway in this referendum than Edinburgh. You could almost stake your house on, if the issue were reversed, London holding a veto on every other council. I'm off to bed but I hope that in two sleeps time I will be waking up to a trembling Westminster ready to work towards fairness towards Wales, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, Yorkshire, the Midlands and so on, rather than keeping everything for London and the South-East.

iownaphone

Lnaa wrote: »

Different country but this beats that hands down...

"Look what these bastards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English — and that's who you are playing this afternoon."

In the Year of our Lord 1314, patriots of Scotland - starving and outnumbered - charged the fields of Bannockburn. They fought like warrior poets; they fought like Scotsmen, and won their freedom.

In the year 2014.....

Rhys Essien

OnTheCouch wrote: »

I would not be surprised either if there was not another referendum in the next 5-10 years, which could possibly have a different result.

I think I read that they dont get a second chance.I heard Salmond say this is it,one shot and one shot only.

A Dub in Glasgo

This C4 debate is a rabble - Michelle Mone who has been popping up in the media recently threatening to leave Scotland should the people vote independence. She was on the TV last week stating 'I have 3 homes in Scotland and 3 businesses' - as if it makes your view and vote more important than others.

iownaphone

md23040 wrote: »

The one sure prediction and certainty in tomorrow’s vote will be that there will be loads of vitriolic trolling from one of the sides and the mods will have their work cut out for them as tempers flare.

It will be lucky if this thread has another 24 hours lifetime before it's locked.

They may take away our lives, but they'll never take our threads

Iwasfrozen

lol at the 18 year old yes voter with the overly large jacket.

LorMal

briany wrote: »

Yeah the island of Great Britain is hardly going to physically break up. The United Kingdom however...

My point exactly. Anyway, it's not going to happen.

gladrags

md23040 wrote: »

The one sure prediction and certainty in tomorrow’s vote will be that there will be loads of vitriolic trolling from one of the sides and the mods will have their work cut out for them as tempers flare.

It will be lucky if this thread has another 24 hours lifetime before it's locked.

Will be an unfitting end to a generally fine debate.

Some informative and interesting facts on both sides

Lets wait and see...it could end in a draw=-O

Satriale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol at the 18 year old yes voter with the overly large jacket.

why? i've no channels...

fleet_admiral

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol at the 18 year old yes voter with the overly large jacket.

A future David Cameron who will vote tomorrow whatever way mummy tells him

Da Shins Kelly

Some guy on the BBC saying that voting for independence is a backward step because it's drawing lines on a map. Would have thought the whole concept of a 'kingdom' is as backward as it gets.

Rhys Essien

Haha,the idiot in the audience on C4 who thinks there will be a border patrol.Talk about doing your research.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Not going to sway voters I think

I take it back, Scott Hastings on that debate probably put a few more to Yes

fleet_admiral

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Haha,the idiot in the audience on C4 who thinks there will be a border patrol.Talk about doing your research.

I remember reading last week that a politician threatened that

efb

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I take it back, Scott Hastings on that debate probably put a few more to Yes

He was quite arrogant

Osvaldo

YES!

Bowlardo

Lnaa wrote: »

Different country but this beats that hands down...

"Look what these bastards have done to Wales. They've taken our coal, our water, our steel. They buy our homes and live in them for a fortnight every year. What have they given us? Absolutely nothing. We've been exploited, raped, controlled and punished by the English — and that's who you are playing this afternoon."

whose quote is that?

Rhys Essien

fleet_admiral wrote: »

I remember reading last week that a politician threatened that

Their so called great union and they dont even know the setup here between us and the north.

iownaphone

A rugby God...in Wales

Osvaldo

Bowlardo wrote: »

whose quote is that?

Rab. C. Nesbitt.

Da Shins Kelly

It's kinda interesting to watch all of these anxieties play out from the perspective of someone who was born and raised in an independent country where things have worked out pretty well since we gained independence. On one hand, I can't understand all the fear about independence, because ultimately it will be fine if they go independent, it almost always is, but then I don't really know what it's like to look into the uncertainty of going it alone.

m1ck007

My gut tells me it will be a yes

ZeroThreat

Johngoose wrote: »

Could Putin have his eye on Scotland if it will be outside U.K. and E.U. More oil and gas for Russia?;-)

Indeed, unknown to most of the west, he ordered construction of a secret fleet of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_vehicle to take their troops across the North sea within hours of a yes vote.

Bowlardo

I'm thinking of putting 50 on scotland for Yes
Paddy power has it 10/3
it is obviously that for a reason..
What does PP know that i don't

Da Shins Kelly

The 'no' side is incredibly negative. I think I would be very put off by their attitude if I was voting. The 'yes' side seems to be looking more positively to the future.

Iwasfrozen

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

It's kinda interesting to watch all of these anxieties play out from the perspective of someone who was born and raised in an independent country where things have worked out pretty well since we gained independence. On one hand, I can't understand all the fear about independence, because ultimately it will be fine if they go independent, it almost always is, but then I don't really know what it's like to look into the uncertainty of going it alone.

Sure thing are fine now but this country went through decades of upheavel after independence. We're a good advertisement for the No campaign.

Lenin Skynard

Bowlardo wrote: »

I'm thinking of putting 50 on scotland for Yes
Paddy power has it 10/3
it is obviously that for a reason..
What does PP know that i don't

They've been shrinking those odds by the day for the past week so don't overestimate Paddy Power here. There could be an expensive weekend on the horizon for them.

Iwasfrozen

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

The 'no' side is incredibly negative. I think I would be very put off by their attitude if I was voting. The 'yes' side seems to be looking more positively to the future.

I found the opposite, the yes campaign talks about how rubbish the UK is and how archaic it is. The No side want to reform the UK and build a better Union, the yes side just want to break it apart and go their own way.

Satriale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure thing are fine now but this country went through decades of upheavel after independence. We're a good advertisement for the No campaign.

So you think we should have stayed in the Union?

R P McMurphy

m1ck007 wrote: »

My gut tells me it will be a yes

Going by the polls then value is definitely on a yes vote.

Iwasfrozen

Satriale wrote: »

So you think we should have stayed in the Union?

Don't know, because I don't know how we would have turned out if we'd stayed. I'd like to see greater integration among the four nations of the British Isles though, maybe a loose confederation.

oppenheimer1

Bowlardo wrote: »

I'm thinking of putting 50 on scotland for Yes
Paddy power has it 10/3
it is obviously that for a reason..
What does PP know that i don't

Paddy knows nothing more than you do. Odds reflect where the money is going and a lot of people with no vote have been betting on this result. Bookies change odds in order to balance their risk. Long odds on yes is to counter large wagers on No.

A good illustration of this is despite England not having a world cup winning side since 66 have always short odds in the bookies - especially as their form has never merited it.

Da Shins Kelly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Sure thing are fine now but this country went through decades of upheavel after independence. We're a good advertisement for the No campaign.

Well, yeah, of course there'll be an adjustment period. I don't think anyone is under any illusions about that, but things do tend to work out fine. I seriously doubt there are many in Ireland who would ever want to go back. Ireland has had its problems, but we've come out the other side and have known great prosperity and success as an independent country. If anything, I think we're a good example of how things can and do work out post-independence regardless of what obstacles may lie ahead initially.

Rhys Essien

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

It's kinda interesting to watch all of these anxieties play out from the perspective of someone who was born and raised in an independent country where things have worked out pretty well since we gained independence. On one hand, I can't understand all the fear about independence, because ultimately it will be fine if they go independent, it almost always is, but then I don't really know what it's like to look into the uncertainty of going it alone.

+1.

You'd swear the way some of the NO crowd are going on that Scotland will be cut off Britain and relocated to Antarctica.Nobody is going to starve for feck sake.

A Dub in Glasgo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I found the opposite, the yes campaign talks about how rubbish the UK is and how archaic it is. The No side want to reform the UK and build a better Union, the yes side just want to break it apart and go their own way.

The Yes side are saying Scotland how it could be better when the people in Scotland get to elect the Government for Scotland with full responsibility and accountability of their own affairs

The No side decided that 'reform of the UK and build a better Union' would not be on the ballot paper. They promised this in panic mode once they realised their original plan was not going to work.

The No side have carried out the mega negative and project fear campaign

The_Kew_Tour

55% to 45% in favour of No vote for me.

Hope I'm wrong.

Love to see Yes get it, but can't see it.

Da Shins Kelly

Yeah, I really don't know how the 'yes' vote could really be seen as the negative ones. All I've heard is scare mongering from the 'no' side.

Satriale

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Don't know, because I don't know how we would have turned out if we'd stayed. I'd like to see greater integration among the four nations of the British Isles though, maybe a loose confederation.

Despite the recent economy Ireland is a pretty safe, nice country to live in, how do you know it wont turn out even better for the Independent Scots? They will hardly have a post independence civil war to deal with, and have more resources now than we ever had.

Change is nothing to be feared.