Scottish Independence discussion area

Dozen Wicked Words

Lnaa wrote: »

One interesting discussion which I don't think has been covered anywhere is what would be the national anthem of an independent Scotland? Technically, Scotland doesn't have an official national anthem. Any suggestions?

Flower of Scotland maybe?

dubscottie

Lnaa wrote: »

I like a lot of what you say, but that's daft talk. Scotland won't descend into a Troubles-esque situation. The factors that led to the Troubles in the north of Ireland simply aren't present in Scotland.

Watch what happens.. Some have said this is now a social movement which is true.

No vote and there will be riots..

dubscottie

dubscottie wrote: »

Once I work out how to hide the source I will post..

Anyone could post a picture of a PSNI land rover and claim it's going to Scotland! Why??? England has a land border with Scotland and fast motorway links if there was any hint of real trouble.

Why the hell would there be any trouble!
Booze fuelled fighting perhaps but nothing more.

Donkey Oaty

First Up wrote: »

Schengen maybe not, but Euro for sure.

Not for sure. Practically nothing is guaranteed in or out for an independent Scotland as far as an EU deal is concerned, and both sides need to realise that.

Lnaa

Lnaa wrote: »

I like a lot of what you say, but that's daft talk. Scotland won't descend into a Troubles-esque situation. The factors that led to the Troubles in the north of Ireland simply aren't present in Scotland.

Except at Rangers v Celtic matches.

Frank Lee Midere

First Up wrote: »

Are you taking the pi*s? Otherwise The naivete and ignorance demonstrated in this one short post is truly jaw-dropping.

How could a Scottish pound be stronger than sterling if it is pegged to sterling? I mean this is primary school stuff.

For what conceivable reasons could the currency of a small, peripheral European country be stronger than one of the world's major currencies? And please don't say whisky, fish or oil. It has too much of the first two and is running out of the third.

As for the EU, have you taken in anything of the complex debate and analysis concerning how a secession within a member state would be handled? Are you blissfully unaware of the concerns over precedent, not to mention the elaborate conditions and procedures for membership?

And have you not noticed that a condition of all new EU members is that they adopt the Euro?

No, you must be taking the pi*s.

This is the kind of anti-Scottish racism that has turned me pro independence. To cede one point - obviously if it has a pegged currency it can't be stronger than sterling. On its own it could be. Why? Because Scotland's GDP is the same as the rest of the UK exempting oil and much higher including it. It's not all fish, whisky and oil. Why wouldn't Scotland be as rich as England with its sheep, financial services and tourism?

dubscottie

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone could post a picture of a PSNI land rover and claim it's going to Scotland! Why??? England has a land border with Scotland and fast motorway links if there was any hint of real trouble.

Why the hell would there be any trouble!
Booze fuelled fighting perhaps but nothing more.

Ah but would the pic be of them coming of the ferry in Scotland? Amazed that nobody else has spotted them.

Hard to miss! And they came over on Monday..

First Up

Lnaa wrote: »

One interesting discussion which I don't think has been covered anywhere is what would be the national anthem of an independent Scotland? Technically, Scotland doesn't have an official national anthem. Any suggestions?

I heard an interview with one of the Corries on radio yesterday. It seems there has been a poll and Flower of Scotland came out on top. The other contenders were Caledonia by Dougie MacLean and Scotland the Brave.

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

This is the kind of anti-Scottish racism that has turned me pro independence. To cede one point - obviously if it has a pegged currency it can't be stronger than sterling. On its own it could be. Why? Because Scotland's GDP is the same as the rest of the UK exempting oil and much higher including it. It's not all fish, whisky and oil. Why wouldn't Scotland be as rich as England with its sheep, financial services and tourism?

Same as the rest of the UK, maybe, but not underpinned by the sixth largest economy in the world.

oppenheimer1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And a huge, cost free and very effective national health service.

The NHS is great I wont deny that. It is also unaffordable, it would have been next to impossible to finance it without oil money in the 80's. It is wrong to finance current expenditure with the sale of assets.

The oil has been replaced with a services boom in London, but there's no guarantee that show is not going to come off the rails. In fact with Tory privatisation plans it would seem that is already becoming too expensive. And it will get more expensive as the population ages

The problem with schemes like the NHS is that when they become too expensive they are next to impossible to row back on.

Frank Lee Midere

Flower of Scotland is the unofficial anthem anyway. Dirge though it is.

iownaphone

dubscottie wrote: »

Watch what happens.. Some have said this is now a social movement which is true.

No vote and there will be riots..

There will be riots regardless. they've been on the pish all day and they will still be on it come the wee hrs this morn.
"yes" :Grrrrrr...Get them. Smash, Biff, Bash Boff
"no" :Grrrrrr...Get them. Smash, Biff, Bash Boff

pedro1234

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

This is the kind of anti-Scottish racism that has turned me pro independence. To cede one point - obviously if it has a pegged currency it can't be stronger than sterling. On its own it could be. Why? Because Scotland's GDP is the same as the rest of the UK exempting oil and much higher including it. It's not all fish, whisky and oil. Why wouldn't Scotland be as rich as England with its sheep, financial services and tourism?

Scottish aren't a race, so it's xenophobic not racist.

Peppa Pig

dubscottie wrote: »

Ah but would the pic be of them coming of the ferry in Scotland? Amazed that nobody else has spotted them.

Hard to miss! And they came over on Monday..

Here they are

namloc1980

Lnaa wrote: »

The problem is that if Scotland joined the EU as a new entrant then it would be forced to join the Euro and Schengen. The UK and Ireland is not part of the Schengen agreement. Therefore, you would have two different systems of immigration on the same island. That is why border posts may be set up. There is no need for one between the UK and Ireland, i.e. between the north of Ireland and the Republic, because the two states operate roughly the same immigration system. That's why flights originating in Ireland are treated as domestic in UK airports. It slightly confuses me why the same doesn't operate in reverse but in essence this is the reason border posts would be needed between Scotland and England.

That's ludicrous. The whole idea behind schengen was to remove physical border controls between adjacent countries. To suggest that it would be used to force two adjoining eu members to have physical borders is just nuts. Clearly an exception would be made in this case. There is a presumption on this thread that Scotland would be forced to do all sorts of stuff by the eu. Every eu accession treaty is different based on the member states individual circumstances. The eu is pragmatic enough to know that a one size fits all membership treaty is unworkable.

Lnaa

Deleted User wrote: »

Except at Rangers v Celtic matches.

You haven't got half the population unable to get work and being forced to live in squalor. You haven't got half the population being attacked by the other half essentially leading pogroms and trying to drive them from their homes, whilst the police offer no protection, and in fact help the other side. You haven't got half the population essentially disenfranchised. Don't mistake the presence of a few latchycos, whether they be dull-headed Celtic or Rangers fans, or members of the local orange lodge, with the conditions that existed in the six counties. Every country has its share of yahoos.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Same as the rest of the UK, maybe, but not underpinned by the sixth largest economy in the world.

That's meaningless. Only one currency tends to be a reserve currency and 6th biggest doesn't cut it.

Not that a "weak" currency causes much damage. It can be a help.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The NHS is great I wont deny that. It is also unaffordable, it would have been next to impossible to finance it without oil money in the 80's. It is wrong to finance current expenditure with the sale of assets.

The oil has been replaced with a services boom in London, but there's no guarantee that show is not going to come off the rails. In fact with Tory privatisation plans it would seem that is already becoming too expensive. And it will get more expensive as the population ages

The problem with schemes like the NHS is that when they become too expensive they are next to impossible to row back on.

Costs less than the HSE per person yet provides universal coverage. Unaffordable?

Frank Lee Midere

pedro1234 wrote: »

Scottish aren't a race, so it's xenophobic not racist.

Which would make the Nazis xenophobic not racist. Let's retire that stupid argument. You can be racist towards ethnic groups.

Fratton Fred

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The NHS is great I wont deny that. It is also unaffordable, it would have been next to impossible to finance it without oil money in the 80's. It is wrong to finance current expenditure with the sale of assets.

The oil has been replaced with a services boom in London, but there's no guarantee that show is not going to come off the rails. In fact with Tory privatisation plans it would seem that is already becoming too expensive. And it will get more expensive as the population ages

The problem with schemes like the NHS is that when they become too expensive they are next to impossible to row back on.

The UK also has an overseas aid budget of £11bn and a defence budget of £45bn. There's plenty or money for the nhs.

First Up

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

This is the kind of anti-Scottish racism that has turned me pro independence. To cede one point - obviously if it has a pegged currency it can't be stronger than sterling. On its own it could be. Why? Because Scotland's GDP is the same as the rest of the UK exempting oil and much higher including it. It's not all fish, whisky and oil. Why wouldn't Scotland be as rich as England with its sheep, financial services and tourism?

Sheep and tourism? Wool and waitresses? Now you are taking the pi*s. The only one you listed with any potential for real wealth creation is financial services and good luck with hanging on to that if Scotland is outside the sterling area. (That will be £125 billion first please.)

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

Costs less than the HSE per person yet provides universal coverage. Unaffordable?

The HSE is also unaffordable for us too.

pedro1234

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Which would make the Nazis xenophobic not racist. Let's retire that stupid argument. You can be racist towards ethnic groups.

You can't. It's xenophobic/ethnicist. A discussion for another day though.

Back on topic... only a few minutes left before the media can start reporting.

Mint Sauce

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

Any early indication of where the vote is going? BBC saying they can't state until the morning. Thanks in advance.

There will be early indications at around midnight to 1am. The result will be known probably by 9am or earlier, unless there is recounts.

Rightwing

The Scots would be extremely dumb to vote Yes, but most voters unfortunately are dumb. Still, the bookies have paid out on the No, so they'll probably just get over the line.

Lnaa

namloc1980 wrote: »

That's ludicrous. The whole idea behind schengen was to remove physical border controls between adjacent countries. To suggest that it would be used to force two adjoining eu members to have physical borders is just nuts. Clearly an exception world be made in this case. There is a presumption on this thread that Scotland would be forced to do all sorts of stuff by the eu. Every eu accession treaty is different based on the member states individual circumstances. The eu is pragmatic enough to know that a one size fits all membership treaty is unworkable.

I don't want to insult you but you don't understand the co-existence of two different border systems within the EU which is exactly WHY a controlled border would be needed. Putting it into simple terms, if you take a plane from Ireland to the UK you will not be asked for you passport in 99.9% of cases when you arrive (you will be checked by the airline, but that's the airline's policy, not the UK's). However, if you take a plane from a Schengen country, you will have to show your passport on arrival. That's because whilst you're arriving from a Schengen country, you are not entering one. The Schengen agreement only concerns countries in that agreement. A problem with the Schengen agreement is that in its very essence of reducing borders, it makes illegal migration easier. That's the problem that would lead to border posts.

BringBackMick

We Believe Scotland.

Defining night in the history of these islands.

gladrags

First Up wrote: »

I heard an interview with one of the Corries on radio yesterday. It seems there has been a poll and Flower of Scotland came out on top. The other contenders were Caledonia by Dougie MacLean and Scotland the Brave.

Did you ever hear The Gael?

Another fitting classic.

Lnaa

First Up wrote: »

I heard an interview with one of the Corries on radio yesterday. It seems there has been a poll and Flower of Scotland came out on top. The other contenders were Caledonia by Dougie MacLean and Scotland the Brave.

I'm for this...

porsche959

First Up wrote: »

Sheep and tourism? Wool and waitresses? Now you are taking the pi*s. The only one you listed with any potential for real wealth creation is financial services and good luck with hanging on to that if Scotland is outside the sterling area. (That will be £125 billion first please.)

The City of London is basically the world's largest money laundering centre. The Scots would do well to be shot of that nest of vipers.

namloc1980

Lnaa wrote: »

I don't want to insult you but you don't understand the co-existence of two different border systems within the EU which is exactly WHY a controlled border would be needed. Putting it into simple terms, if you take a plane from Ireland to the UK you will not be asked for you passport in 99.9% of cases when you arrive (you will be checked by the airline, but that's the airline's policy, not the UK's). However, if you take a plane from a Schengen country, you will have to show your passport on arrival. That's because whilst you're arriving from a Schengen country, you are not entering one. The Schengen agreement only concerns countries in that agreement. A problem with the Schengen agreement is that in its very essence of reducing borders, it makes illegal migration easier. That's the problem that would lead to border posts.

Which is why Scotland wouldn't be forced into Schengen. To suggest you would force borders between member states is ridiculous. Surely you can see that. Scotland would continue in the CTA.

First Up

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Not for sure. Practically nothing is guaranteed in or out for an independent Scotland as far as an EU deal is concerned, and both sides need to realise that.

Disagree. Look at it from Brussels perspective (or Madrid's, or Rome's or a few other places.) The balance of power in the EU has long since moved East. The days when Western Europe could run the show and toss a few grants to the poorer cousins have long passed.

If other applicant countries are being put through the economic wringer and told its the Euro or nothing, do you seriously think they will tolerate the contrarian Brits (and Scotland will still be Brits in their eyes) getting into the EU on a nod and a wink AND hanging on to sterling?

Snowball's in hell would get better odds from Paddy Power.

oppenheimer1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The UK also has an overseas aid budget of £11bn and a defence budget of £45bn. There's plenty or money for the nhs.

If the UK cuts those budgets it will mean a loss of stature among the international community. Its not something the UK is comfortable with - its place in the world is the only reason it will spend an obscene amount of money replacing Trident.

I often got the feeling through the campaign that rUK didn't really have much real love for Scotland, but wanted to keep it in the union so as to ensure its place at the top table of the world wouldn't be threatened.

Lnaa

namloc1980 wrote: »

Which is why Scotland wouldn't be forced into Shengen. To suggest you would force borders between member states is ridiculous. Surely you can see that. Scotland would continue in the CTA.

The problem is that as a new member Scotland would be in a weak negotiating position on Schengen.

I think there is an awful lot of focus on the Scotland - England aspect. The simple fact is Italy, Spain, Germany, Poland, Holland etc. couldn't give a rats @rse what the best situation for Scotland, nor what it would be for England, is. They, as is every country, are concerned solely with the best solution for themselves.

First Up

Lnaa wrote: »

The problem is that as a new member Scotland would be in a weak negotiating position on Schengen.

It would be negotiating over a barrel - hopefully of a good Islay malt.

Harry Palmr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EziqZJyHU8s

BringBackMick

ohhh this is very exciting!

Probably better than a US Presidential Election!

gladrags

Rightwing wrote: »

The Scots would be extremely dumb to vote Yes, but most voters unfortunately are dumb. Still, the bookies have paid out on the No, so they'll probably just get over the line.

If "most voters are dumb" does this not infer that most voters who voted NO are dumb!

So it appears that most voters who are going to vote NO are dumb,there are more dumb NO voters than dumb YES voters.

Contradiction.

iownaphone

EXIT POLLS?????

namloc1980

Lnaa wrote: »

The problem is that as a new member Scotland would be in a weak negotiating position on Schengen.

Not really. Again it is absurd to suggest that the eu would force borders between its member states when the whole idea of schengen is to remove them. The UK would also reject such a suggestion as would Ireland. What you're suggesting is that right across the continent the eu is trying to bring down borders except in Britain where it would force a border to be created where one has Not existed for centuries. That's simply bonkers.

pedro1234

Sky News Live Stream: http://news.sky.com/templates/watch-live

BringBackMick

iownaphone wrote: »

EXIT POLLS?????

No Exit Polls !

SharpshooterTom

BringBackMick wrote: »

ohhh this is very exciting!

Probably better than a US Presidential Election!

Not really, givens the result is a foregone conclusion.

I'm heading to bed within half an hour, I'll wake up tomorrow to find out how much NO have won by, anything greater than 45% would be a good result for YES regardless.

Lnaa

namloc1980 wrote: »

Not really. Again it is absurd to suggest that the eu would force borders between its member states when the whole idea of schengen is to remove them. The UK would also reject such a suggestion as would Ireland. What you're suggesting is that right across the continent the eu is trying to bring down borders except in Britain where it would force a border to be created where one has Not existed for centuries. That's simply bonkers.

Except when the chess players in Brussels, Strasbourg and Berlin saw it as an opportunity to back the UK (and Ireland) into a corner over Schengen. We don't live in a fantasy world where countries are nice to each other. The EU is a chessboard, and at the moment Berlin has most of the other members in "check".

Frank Lee Midere

First Up wrote: »

Sheep and tourism? Wool and waitresses? Now you are taking the pi*s. The only one you listed with any potential for real wealth creation is financial services and good luck with hanging on to that if Scotland is outside the sterling area. (That will be £125 billion first please.)

I was reacting to your racist and incorrect claim that the Scottish economy depends on fish, oil and whisky.

Let me reiterate. The Scottish GDP per capita is as high as rUK absent the oil and much higher with it.

tomwaterford

any word on how this vote went yet??

Frank Lee Midere

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Not really, givens the result is a foregone conclusion.

I'm heading to bed within half an hour, I'll wake up tomorrow to find out how much NO have won by, anything greater than 45% would be a good result for YES regardless.

It will be much closer of course.

cruiserweight

BringBackMick wrote: »

No Exit Polls !

Although YouGov have conducted an on the day online poll (which I guess is technically not an exit poll). It is expected to be released online at 22:30

BringBackMick

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Not really, givens the result is a foregone conclusion.

I'm heading to bed within half an hour, I'll wake up tomorrow to find out how much NO have won by, anything greater than 45% would be a good result for YES regardless.

You are that sure? Hope you made your 25% profit over the last few days so.....

Frank Lee Midere

BringBackMick wrote: »

No Exit Polls !

Should be available now.