Scottish Independence discussion area

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 6:24pm

.........but I've answered them.

Not once have I mentioned that word - Fre***!

on the river · 06-08-2014 6:29pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

.........but I've answered them.

Not once have I mentioned that word - Fre***!

Did you?
It seems your passion for Scotland outshine basic facts.

Before you answer.
Rethink
Relook
Disengage

irishfeen · 06-08-2014 6:33pm

I wonder could we put in a poll to see what support levels for Scottish Independence exists at this side of the Irish sea - I certainly support it, the Scots have enough about them to rule themselves - it would initially be hard but over time I think they would prosper.

Michael D Not Higgins · 06-08-2014 6:39pm

Living in Scotland, I'd prefer a more devolved Scottish parliament as part of the UK.

on the river · 06-08-2014 6:40pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Living in Scotland, I'd prefer a more devolved Scottish parliament as part of the UK.

So why not go a step further and go independent

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 6:43pm

irishfeen wrote: »

I wonder could we put in a poll to see what support levels for Scottish Independence exists at this side of the Irish sea - I certainly support it, the Scots have enough about them to rule themselves - it would initially be hard but over time I think they would prosper.

Agreed. It'll take time and I'm sure they'll be issues that's for sure.
But bloke River... has been reading #bettertogether #projectfear handbook. Your too thick and poor... Bla bla " to many unanswered questions"

Give me more questions..

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 6:50pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Living in Scotland, I'd prefer a more devolved Scottish parliament as part of the UK.

This was an option given to the UK Government ( Devo Max) but was rejected out of hand.

irishfeen · 06-08-2014 7:22pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Living in Scotland, I'd prefer a more devolved Scottish parliament as part of the UK.

As I said already today on a different forum... I really hope normal decent Scots are not driven to fear at the ballot box ... This will probably be the only vote this century so very real responsibility lies with each and every vote cast.

A democratic referendum is a privilege that we Irish could have only dreamed of when we went looking for democracy to be respected - we got it through the gun (and subsequently started killing each other over the state London gave us), thank god that is not the case in Scotland.

on the river · 06-08-2014 7:26pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

Agreed. It'll take time and I'm sure they'll be issues that's for sure.
But bloke River... has been reading #bettertogether #projectfear handbook. Your too thick and poor... Bla bla " to many unanswered questions"

Give me more questions..

#getalife scottie

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 7:59pm

on the river wrote: »

#getalife scottie

You know you've won the arguement when the insults fly

on the river · 06-08-2014 8:47pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

You know you've won the arguement when the insults fly

That's your words:-D

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 06-08-2014 8:49pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

This was an option given to the UK Government ( Devo Max) but was rejected out of hand.

Yeah but now they say they will hand over more powers. Anyone who believes that is delusional

bnt · 06-08-2014 8:56pm

I came to the conclusion, a few months ago, that the currency question needed to be answered, and properly, if I was going to support independence.The Eurozone experiement has clearly demonstrated that it's a bad idea to have currency union without fiscal union (tax & spending policies etc.) So I do not like the idea of Scotland retaining the pound or joining the Eurozone, not if it's going have true independence to manage its economy properly. The recent Salmond / Darling debate showed that Salmond & co still haven't got an acceptable answer to that currency question, this close to the referendum.

Broxi_Bear_Eire · 06-08-2014 9:00pm

bnt wrote: »

I came to the conclusion, a few months ago, that the currency question needed to be answered, and properly, if I was going to support independence.The Eurozone experiement has clearly demonstrated that it's a bad idea to have currency union without fiscal union (tax & spending policies etc.) So I do not like the idea of Scotland retaining the pound or joining the Eurozone, not if it's going have true independence to manage its economy properly. The recent Salmond / Darling debate showed that Salmond & co still haven't got an acceptable answer to that currency question, this close to the referendum.

Salmond should have answered the question last night there are other options but it won't be down to him anyway. It has already been said it will be an all party affair. My worry is to many people still think its all about Salmond its not

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 10:18pm

bnt wrote: »

I came to the conclusion, a few months ago, that the currency question needed to be answered, and properly, if I was going to support independence.The Eurozone experiement has clearly demonstrated that it's a bad idea to have currency union without fiscal union (tax & spending policies etc.) So I do not like the idea of Scotland retaining the pound or joining the Eurozone, not if it's going have true independence to manage its economy properly. The recent Salmond / Darling debate showed that Salmond & co still haven't got an acceptable answer to that currency question, this close to the referendum.

The fact is there will be currency union between Scotland and UK. UK government officials have said so. The reason why it's not official, is because #bettertogether want to use it as a stick to beat the #voteyes campaign.
UK government need the Scottish economy to prop up Sterling apparently (oil/gas reserves etc)
Anyway here are options

Iwasfrozen · 06-08-2014 10:24pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

The fact is there will be currency union between Scotland and UK. UK government officials have said so. The reason why it's not official, is because #bettertogether want to use it as a stick to beat the #voteyes campaign.

What officials?

UK government need the Scottish economy to prop up Sterling apparently (oil/gas reserves etc)
Anyway here are options

Why? The rUK economy is x10 times the size of Scotland's economy. Scotland barely makes a dent in the value of the pound.

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 10:31pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What officials?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

Also Alistair Darling

http://youtu.be/RQi8KvjOBD0

kefir32 · 06-08-2014 10:34pm

Alot of Irish seem to have a misplaced sense of solidarity with the scottish independence supporters, my angle is a newly independent Scotland would be competing with Eire for MNCs, foreign investment. I assume a corporation tax cut wouldnt be far down the tracks in the new iScotland. I am sure they wouldnt feel too bad for us if the likes of google facebook relocated to Edinburgh. Thats my take on it.
Anyway my gut tells me the no thanks side will win on the day, the currency question is a big unknown and the scots are financially prudent by nature.

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 10:43pm

kefir32 wrote: »

Alot of Irish seem to have a misplaced sense of solidarity with the scottish independence supporters, my angle is a newly independent Scotland would be competing with Eire for MNCs, foreign investment. I assume a corporation tax cut would be not far down the tracks in the new iScotland. I am sure they wouldnt feel too bad for us if the likes of google facebook relocated to Edinburgh. Thats my take on it.
Anyway my gut tells me the no thanks side will win on the day, the currency question is a big unknown and the scots are financially prudent race

You may have a point the matter of Corporation tax. It has been mention but I don't know what their policy actually is. What I do know is the UK will I think next year cutting its Corp tax.
It's not an unknown concerning Currency. Every dog in the street know how it gonna work out. It just trying to explain to Scottish public and who to believe. The Tories who are hated in every corner of Scotland or the Scottish Government.
As for last nights referendum - I thought Salmond was poor but the polls seem to back him. Apparently straw polls by pollsters saw the Yes vote increase.

Frankie Lee · 06-08-2014 10:52pm

kefir32 wrote: »

Alot of Irish seem to have a misplaced sense of solidarity with the scottish independence supporters, my angle is a newly independent Scotland would be competing with Eire for MNCs, foreign investment. I assume a corporation tax cut wouldnt be far down the tracks in the new iScotland. I am sure they wouldnt feel too bad for us if the likes of google facebook relocated to Edinburgh. Thats my take on it.
Anyway my gut tells me the no thanks side will win on the day, the currency question is a big unknown and the scots are financially prudent by nature.

They might be more interested in developing a sustainable economy rather than competing with tax havens.

Scottie99 · 06-08-2014 11:07pm

http://www.yesscotland.net/answers?text=&issue=All

Iwasfrozen · 06-08-2014 11:33pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/28/independent-scotland-may-keep-pound

Also Alistair Darling

http://youtu.be/RQi8KvjOBD0

Ok, Alistair Darling said a currency union would be desirable because it would lead to a political and economic union. Take away the possibility of a political and economic union and it's not clear from that video that he's in favor of a monetary union at all. In fact he even says he isn't in the first part of the video...

Also I'd be weary of that article. The guardian is hardly an unbiased source and the minister in question is un-named.

Scottie99 · 07-08-2014 6:23am

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Also I'd be weary of that article. The guardian is hardly an unbiased source and the minister in question is un-named.

Unbiased source? Sorry, the Guardian is London based newspaper with no alliance with Independence campaign. If you see from other "related articles", it's quite balanced.As for the Minister, he connected to the their Union Campaign and hardly wants named.
You really grasping at straws:p

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-08-2014 7:47am

on the river wrote: »

So why not go a step further and go independent

Because of the whole 'we'll sort that out later' stance from the SNP. We still have no idea of what an independent Scotland would look like. Salmond just wants the vote through and then fight his corner, but why should we vote for it if we don't know what the result will be?

For the money I have in the bank, for the job I have, for the industry I work in, I prefer the stability of the status quo.

Scottie99 · 07-08-2014 8:44am

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

'we'll sort that out later' .

That's not how it is. Westminster are refusing to say if they'll agree to Scotland using the pound. It's a deliberate ploy - thus we're all having this conversation and all this doubt. One thing is clear, Scotland COULD walk away from Sterling leaving UK with the debt.....maybe he should call their bluff?

Saadyst · 07-08-2014 9:22am

Scottie99 wrote: »

That's not how it is. Westminster are refusing to say if they'll agree to Scotland using the pound. It's a deliberate ploy - thus we're all having this conversation and all this doubt. One thing is clear, Scotland COULD walk away from Sterling leaving UK with the debt.....maybe he should call their bluff?

A newly formed country not taking on liabilities and refusing to pay their debt? Yeah, Scotland could do that alright. Don't think it's the smart thing to do however.

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-08-2014 9:29am

Scottie99 wrote: »

That's not how it is. Westminster are refusing to say if they'll agree to Scotland using the pound.

But Osbourne already said Scotland couldn't have the pound. All the major parties supported him too. Sure, maybe that's a tactic, but they're not refusing to say, they're just refusing.

Berserker · 07-08-2014 9:35am

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Because of the whole 'we'll sort that out later' stance from the SNP. We still have no idea of what an independent Scotland would look like. Salmond just wants the vote through and then fight his corner, but why should we vote for it if we don't know what the result will be?

For the money I have in the bank, for the job I have, for the industry I work in, I prefer the stability of the status quo.

I don't have a vote but this is the biggest issue for me. I see no real 'Master' plan for an Independent Scotland. Salmond fights his corner very well but I am fail to see the path that Scotland will follow if it gains independence.

I think Scotland will keep the pound and some sort of deal on the currency will be hammered out, if needs be. How independent is Scotland if it is still in union with London currency wise, is the question that crosses my mind? It's London's currency, when all is said and done and they will call the shots to a large extent. Taking the euro or god forbid their own currency would be a disaster for Scottish business when dealing with their biggest trade partner, England.

Scottie99 · 07-08-2014 9:57am

Saadyst wrote: »

A newly formed country not taking on liabilities and refusing to pay their debt? Yeah, Scotland could do that alright. Don't think it's the smart thing to do however.

But it's their debt because it's not our currency, they keep telling us. Salmond has said he'll take the currency on and the share of the debt. If you look at the bond markets theyre quite forgivable, look at Argentina. How many times have they defaulted now? Two or three times?

As I said if Scottish people see through the rUK bull they'll be £currency at the end of it. Didn't Ireland have UK £currency after independence up until 1928?

Scottie99 · 07-08-2014 10:06am

Berserker wrote: »

I don't have a vote but this is the biggest issue for me. I see no real 'Master' plan for an Independent Scotland. Salmond fights his corner very well but I am fail to see the path that Scotland will follow if it gains independence.

I think Scotland will keep the pound and some sort of deal on the currency will be hammered out, if needs be. How independent is Scotland if it is still in union with London currency wise, is the question that crosses my mind? It's London's currency, when all is said and done and they will call the shots to a large extent. Taking the euro or god forbid their own currency would be a disaster for Scottish business when dealing with their biggest trade partner, England.

UNLIKE EUROPE, Scotland and the rest of the UK have been monetarily/economically linked and glove like for hundreds of years, so they're much the same apart from London.
You forget one thing. Who is England's largest trading partner? Yes Scotland, it'll affect them also. That's why monetary union will happen. RUK doesn't need the extra costs involved, it would be mutual destruction.

Scottie99 · 07-08-2014 10:19am

Berserker wrote: »

I don't have a vote but this is the biggest issue for me. I see no real 'Master' plan for an Independent Scotland. Salmond fights his corner very well but I am fail to see the path that Scotland will follow if it gains independence.

The plan is we'd be masters of our own destiny. As said before Scotland would be better off by £7B or 11% a year. In the Union we're not getting what we're putting in. As Ireland knows £7B or €10billion can do a lot for you economy

Berserker · 07-08-2014 10:22am

Scottie99 wrote: »

You forget one thing. Who is England's largest trading partner? Yes Scotland, it'll affect them also. That's why monetary union will happen. RUK doesn't need the extra costs involved, it would be mutual destruction.

Since when? Last time I heard the US, China, Germany, (us Exports only) were.

Edit : I can't post a link to back this up as a new user but the stats are available on google.

Scottie99 · 07-08-2014 10:31am

Berserker wrote: »

Since when? Last time I heard the US, China, Germany, (us Exports only) were.

Edit : I can't post a link to back this up as a new user but the stats are available on google.

Was this the one?

http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/england/export-import.html

You forget "black gold"

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-08-2014 11:24am

The Guardian says "Scotland remains the UK's second-largest trading partner"
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/feb/09/scotland-independence-money-machine

Fratton Fred · 07-08-2014 11:36am

Scottie99 wrote: »

The plan is we'd be masters of our own destiny. As said before Scotland would be better off by £7B or 11% a year. In the Union we're not getting what we're putting in. As Ireland knows £7B or €10billion can do a lot for you economy

Is that after RBS and HBoS as well as the other finance and insurance companies move to London?

Saadyst · 07-08-2014 11:43am

Scottie99 wrote: »

But it's their debt because it's not our currency, they keep telling us. Salmond has said he'll take the currency on and the share of the debt. If you look at the bond markets theyre quite forgivable, look at Argentina. How many times have they defaulted now? Two or three times?

As I said if Scottish people see through the rUK bull they'll be £currency at the end of it. Didn't Ireland have UK £currency after independence up until 1928?

I don't believe it works like that. You can't just choose to dump a currency and say the debt is now gone too. The country will be immediately downgraded for refusing to stand up for it's commitments. Argentina is a terrible example for you to use here also. Defaulting is not a good thing.

Why would Scotland want to use the pound anyway - it would be a currency controlled by another country?

Financial arguments in favour of independence don't seem to be great in general. Your confidence in the "mutually assured destruction" doesn't make sense. The size of the rUK economy is much, much bigger than Scotland. If they can bail out RBS (which incidentally would have destroyed an iScotland), rUK can survive this mutually assured destruction... that's not to say it's what they would want.

Dublin Red Devil · 07-08-2014 11:47am

It's not real independence. As long a Scotland are using the pound all their money, their economy is controlled by The bank of England.

Michael D Not Higgins · 07-08-2014 11:47am

Saadyst wrote: »

I don't believe it works like that. You can't just choose to dump a currency and say the debt is now gone too. The country will be immediately downgraded for refusing to stand up for it's commitments. Argentina is a terrible example for you to use here also. Defaulting is not a good thing.

Why would Scotland want to use the pound anyway - it would be a currency controlled by another country?

Financial arguments in favour of independence don't seem to be great in general. Your confidence in the "mutually assured destruction" doesn't make sense. The size of the rUK economy is much, much bigger than Scotland. If they can bail out RBS (which incidentally would have destroyed an iScotland), rUK can survive this mutually assured destruction... that's not to say it's what they would want.

What was the cost of the Scottish bailout v Irish bailout? Would Scotland have been worse off than Ireland?

Edit: Ignoring that a lot of the Scottish bank bailout was for financial work done in London.

Saadyst · 07-08-2014 12:02pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

What was the cost of the Scottish bailout v Irish bailout? Would Scotland have been worse off than Ireland?

Edit: Ignoring that a lot of the Scottish bank bailout was for financial work done in London.

I don't know if it would be better or worse for sure.. who does? But I would hedge on worse:

"Between 2008 and 2009 Lloyds Banking Group, which owns Bank of Scotland, and the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) received £61.6 billion in emergency funding from the Bank of England and £65 billion from the Government to prevent their collapse"

"Standard and Poor's analyst Giles Edwards said: "In our view, the willingness and ability of a future Scottish government to support its banking system is challenging at this point, not least because the Scottish banking system's assets are currently a high 1254% of Scottish GDP, which compares with an already high 492% of GDP for the UK, and 880% for Iceland in 2007 just before the (country's) banking system collapsed."

And you mentioned the financial work in London... I would suspect that it would be very tempting for these same institutions to move their HQs to England... considering that's where the majority of their business is.

Scottie99 · 09-08-2014 12:01pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

What was the cost of the Scottish bailout v Irish bailout? Would Scotland have been worse off than Ireland?

Edit: Ignoring that a lot of the Scottish bank bailout was for financial work done in London.

When a Bank needs bailed out,it's not necessarily their home country that bails them out. Look at UKs Barclays for example, the UK didn't bail them out on they're own (see graph). So if Scotland if Independent at the time wouldn't have had to pay 100% BOS liabilities.

Fratton Fred · 09-08-2014 5:43pm

Scottie99 wrote: »

When a Bank needs bailed out,it's not necessarily their home country that bails them out. Look at UKs Barclays for example, the UK didn't bail them out on they're own (see graph). So if Scotland if Independent at the time wouldn't have had to pay 100% BOS liabilities.

Scotland would still have had to pick up a significant percentage. Plus the bail out of Clydesdale and HBOS.

It would have been Darien all over again.

Electric Boobs · 09-08-2014 6:08pm

Dublin Red Devil wrote: »

It's not real independence. As long a Scotland are using the pound all their money, their economy is controlled by The bank of England.

Cameron is making it clear that they can't just assume they'll get to keep the pound.

For some reason though, David Bowie wants Scotland to stay with England!!

Madam · 09-08-2014 6:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Scotland would still have had to pick up a significant percentage. Plus the bail out of Clydesdale and HBOS.

It would have been Darien all over again.

I think you'll find The Clydesdale received no money from the government, it is owned by National Australia Group and is quite probably one of the only banks that refused or needed any government help.

kingchess · 09-08-2014 6:29pm

poor auld Braveheart shouting" FREEDOM".he would vote NO today because freedom would cost too much.the funny thing is most politicians admit that Scotland will be a successful Country if it do vote yes,but that it is doing ok as part of the UK-in other words ,if it is not broke then do not fix it

Madam · 09-08-2014 8:34pm

kingchess wrote: »

poor auld Braveheart shouting" FREEDOM".he would vote NO today because freedom would cost too much.the funny thing is most politicians admit that Scotland will be a successful Country if it do vote yes,but that it is doing ok as part of the UK-in other words ,if it is not broke then do not fix it

****e:-)

kingchess · 10-08-2014 2:37am

Madam wrote: »

****e:-)

interesting answer and well reasoned,if I read you correctly(and lets face it,it is only one word),maybe I am reading too much into your erudite response,
you certainly convinced me,so thanks,all the best etc as your logic is unassailable ,

Madam · 10-08-2014 9:25am

Sorry for that last post - someone in this house is going to suffer for it:mad::o

irishfeen · 25-08-2014 10:43pm

https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/504020287848198144

Salmond after throwing the door wide open tonight? - Expect the mudslinging to really begin now

pablomakaveli · 25-08-2014 10:46pm

irishfeen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/504020287848198144

Salmond after throwing the door wide open tonight? - Expect the mudslinging to really begin now

To be fair though i'd expect most people to beat Alistair Darling. The man doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

The_Valeyard · 25-08-2014 10:47pm

irishfeen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/BBCScotlandNews/status/504020287848198144

Salmond after throwing the door wide open tonight? - Expect the mudslinging to really begin now

Wow, bit of a landslide win there.

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