Scottish Independence discussion area

namloc1980

The sweeping under the carpet exercise of further devolution has begun. Cameron has said it will happen in the "next parliament".

IamtheWalrus

Shame.

Joya

Joya wrote: »

I'd love to see yes vote prevail but have a feeling it is going to be disappointing slight no result.....

and so it is...

http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

gucci

iv said it before and ill say it again, democracy just doesn't work!

namloc1980

So Cameron had made a big political and election statement. Further devolution will happen side by side with powers for English voters. He's basically said, if you want more power you must vote for me in the GE. Scotland what have you done.

Richard Hillman

Cameron's legacy has been secured with that speech. Britain's greatest post war PM.

Henry Sidney

gucci wrote: »

iv said it before and ill say it again, democracy just doesn't work!

Why? Because they didn't vote the way you wanted them to?

The majority of Scottish people wish to remain in the UK, so democracy wins.

WesternZulu

I don't think that this is a YES for the idea of the UK.

It's like a relationship out of convenience and comfort, not one of love, where one person has settled and is happy enough as long as the life that they've grown accustomed to is maintained.

Not surprised, the polls showed the No vote ahead the whole time.

Gordon

W00t! A wise choice by Scotland, we voted well.

kenmc

they'll get another go to vote yes like we did a couple of years ago, won't they? isn't that the way referendums work?

BoJack Horseman

namloc1980 wrote: »

So Cameron had made a big political and election statement. Further devolution will happen side by side with powers for English voters. He's basically said, if you want more power you must vote for me in the GE. Scotland what have you done.

Just like he kicked the in/out EU referendum to after the election.... An election he is likely to lose & he knows that, so its a bluff that won't be called.

Well done Scotland.
Lose/lose.

BoJack Horseman

Henry Sidney wrote: »

Why? Because they didn't vote the way you wanted them to?

The majority of Scottish people wish to remain in the UK, so democracy wins.

That will remain to be seen.

Polls showed the majority of Scots wishing for independence.

The cast majority of the 450k English people living there preferred to stay in the union.

I await that breakdown (if there is any).

Guy:Incognito

NIMAN wrote: »

There'll be some anger about when the promised powers don't materialise!
Politicians don't have a good record of delivering on promises.

Thats because most of the time it's not all workable ( politics in general, not Scotland in particular) . the voters are complicit in it too, you can only play dumb and blaming the "lying politicians" so many times but the fact of it is if they didn't embellish about what the camn and will do they wouldn't get the votes.

Henry Sidney

kenmc wrote: »

they'll get another go to vote yes like we did a couple of years ago, won't they? isn't that the way referendums work?

Only in Ireland when you don't vote the way your politicians want you to. Still amazed that you all fell for that lark and then went and voted yes. Laughable.

wendell borton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DZOqm_SgjU

SharpshooterTom

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Gutted

45% is still a good vote though. They should be proud they made it as close as it was, because if we're being honest, NO was always on the cards, only two polls in the past 2 years showed YES winning. 100s didn't.

Henry Sidney

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That will remain to be seen.

Polls showed the majority of Scots wishing for independence.

The cast majority of the 450k English people living there preferred to stay in the union.

I await that breakdown (if there is any).

Wow. What a load of nonsense. Unable to accept that people want to stay in the UK?

kenmc

kenmc wrote: »

they'll get another go to vote yes like we did a couple of years ago, won't they? isn't that the way referendums work?

More like a decade, and a lot can happen in the meantime.
North sea oil could decline to the point that it's no longer a major economic force for starters.

A Dub in Glasgo

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

That will remain to be seen.

Polls showed the majority of Scots wishing for independence.

The cast majority of the 450k English people living there preferred to stay in the union.

I await that breakdown (if there is any).

I would not go there, the people in Scotland voted (for the wrong option in my view). The problem the No side will have to address is the 'more powers promise' and the slide down the agenda once the Westminster parties get over this little sojorn in Scotland and go back to normal.

SpaceTime

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'd suspect that the don't knows will quite likely chicken out in the polling booth and it'll be something like 45:55 against. That's my prediction anyway.

So, I was bang on *lol*

Teyla Emmagan

Do think the right decision was made. Hope Cameron now stays true to his word. Even if he did just wake up a fortnight ago and go "oh fcuk, is that this month?!".

hoodwinked

SpaceTime wrote: »

So, I was bang on *lol*

quick pm me tonights lotto numbers!




i have to say i am a little disappointed, as someone with no inclination towards either side it would have been enjoyable watching history being made and everything changing.

SpaceTime

SpaceTime wrote: »

So, I was bang on *lol*

I always expected the "undecided" to split 50:50 or not vote at all, it needed almost all to jump to yes for the result to change.

SharpshooterTom

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I would not go there, the people in Scotland voted (for the wrong option in my view). The problem the No side will have to address is the 'more powers promise' and the slide down the agenda once the Westminster parties get over this little sojorn in Scotland and go back to normal.

Dub, what do you think the consequences for Scotland are, if within 10 years, the UK withdraws from the EU? (I suspect that vote is coming) Would that be a potential momentum shift for the SNP again?

Lnaa

So its the no we all expected. Got to say, seeing that muffin Salmond looking so glum is fun.

Now, lets stop píssing around discussing how to give x, y and z to Scotland and concentrate on what's really needed... devolved powers to cities like Manchester and Liverpool and regions like Yorkshire that are suffering far more than Scotland from being in the headlock of London.

bilston

namloc1980 wrote: »

The sweeping under the carpet exercise of further devolution has begun. Cameron has said it will happen in the "next parliament".

The next General Election is in June, the next Parliament is therefore just months away.

SpaceTime

hoodwinked wrote: »

quick pm me tonights lotto numbers!




i have to say i am a little disappointed, as someone with no inclination towards either side it would have been enjoyable watching history being made and everything changing.

+1

The status quo is very hard to move though.
There wasn't a consensus either way so it's always going to lean more towards caution.

ThomasFlynn

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Dub, what do you think the consequences for Scotland are, if within 10 years, the UK withdraws from the EU? (I suspect that vote is coming) Would that be a potential momentum shift for the SNP again?

If the UK votes to leave the EU, it will need Scottish votes as well or an overwhelming majority of English voters wanting to leave.

Being part of the UK and a member of the EU are two different things, the only similarity is that both are remote control of Scottish policy.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lnaa wrote: »

So its the no we all expected. Got to say, seeing that muffin Salmond looking so glum is fun.

Now, lets stop píssing around discussing how to give x, y and z to Scotland and concentrate on what's really needed... devolved powers to cities like Manchester and Liverpool and regions like Yorkshire that are suffering far more than Scotland from being in the headlock of London.

Yep, that's right - spend the last 2 weeks promising the people in Scotland X, Y & Z and offering timetables. With the result barely 2 hours declared, you what to go back on all that?

SharpshooterTom

For YES to have won they needed polls consistently showing a vote for YES up and around 60%, because there always going to a pull back. People got too optimistic on here with polls always showing 47-49% YES which was shouldn't have been a cause for as much optimism as there was on here.

A Dub in Glasgo

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Dub, what do you think the consequences for Scotland are, if within 10 years, the UK withdraws from the EU? (I suspect that vote is coming) Would that be a potential momentum shift for the SNP again?

There will be a lot of egg on faces and brown stuff running down legs especially the Labour Party. Potentially the SNP might make move again although the people have spoken, that risk was identified and discounted

Lnaa

md23040 wrote: »

Don't worry the English won't bother campaigning 30 years from now when every last resource has been raped out of the ground by London.

Wouldn't say so, there's already demand in Manchester that they need devolved powers and other cities are starting to think of joining the same bandwagon.

A Dub in Glasgo

bilston wrote: »

The next General Election is in June, the next Parliament is therefore just months away.

You forgot 9 in your sentence

Long Gone

Joe Doe wrote: »

....it is now

ah well, next year?

You hadn't heard ? - Another referendum has been ruled out for at least another generation.

Our work here is done.

namloc1980

bilston wrote: »

The next General Election is in June, the next Parliament is therefore just months away.

The promise was that it would commence immediately once the result was known. The result is barely official and the timeframe has slipped already!

ArielAtom

Jog on Wales, England has a new bitch☺️

Francie Barrett

After all the hype of the referendum being too close to call, the No vote ended up winning quite easily in the end. Having said all that, I think it's for the best. I don't think the Scots would be capable of taking charge anyway.

flazio

The result reminded me of a US presidential election result, perhaps we can do this every 4 years.

Lnaa

ArielAtom wrote: »

Jog on Wales, England has a new bitch☺️

Just about sums up the attitude, and lack of knowledge, of many on the yes side. This wasn't a Scotland v England issue. Its sad, in this day and age, that there is still so much racism against England and the English. Its even sadder that people don't realise that the north of England is suffering far more under London's hegemony than Scotland is.

SpaceTime

I'd actually say there's significantly more chance of the UK voting to exit the EU.

There's a rational argument for reform and a strong argument due to the Euro crisis but a huge % of English voters seem to just fundamentally dislike the entire concept without any real rational discussion anyway. The EU could be going wonderfully and they'd still hate it.

I think the Scottish referendum will give the pro-EU side a false sense of security as I really think a large % of the English in particular have an actual hatred of the the word "Europe" and will be completely blinded by nationalism and just leave, even if that means throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Unless the debate changes enormously over the coming year, I see very little that would make me think there's a strong chance of the UK staying in.

I know quite a few Brits with Irish connections who live on the continent who've already taken Irish passports and others who are naturalising in their countries of residence as they're completely convinced that they're going to be leaving.

spiralism

It may be down to the raging hangover but i feel pretty patriotic right now. These lads got codded with promises of devolved powers and wont get a ****ing thing, Cameron and co. would put the fockers in King's Landing to shame. You're even having knobheads talking about having a vote to kick them out of the UK now in England.

We had **** all in terms of resources and men nearly a hundred years ago and took it by force while they had the option and settled for it. You don't get independence in a poll unfortunately, its just something you have to take, otherwise you second guess yourselves and get duped.

BoJack Horseman

Francie Barrett wrote: »

I don't think the Scots would be capable of taking charge anyway.

A ridiculous & insulting notion.

ArielAtom

Lnaa wrote: »

Just about sums up the attitude, and lack of knowledge, of many on the yes side. This wasn't a Scotland v England issue. Its sad, in this day and age, that there is still so much racism against England and the English. Its even sadder that people don't realise that the north of England is suffering far more under London's hegemony than Scotland is.

How profound!!! It was humour😉

spiralism

Lnaa wrote: »

Just about sums up the attitude, and lack of knowledge, of many on the yes side. This wasn't a Scotland v England issue. Its sad, in this day and age, that there is still so much racism against England and the English. Its even sadder that people don't realise that the north of England is suffering far more under London's hegemony than Scotland is.

It's been that way for a long time though. London governs for London. They've been ****ing anywhere north of Reading over since Thatcher.

That's the thing though, it was a London vs Scotland issue

SharpshooterTom

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Cameron's legacy has been secured with that speech. Britain's greatest post war PM.

One thing that was glaringly obvious about Cameron's speech is that he failed to mention and recognise that 45% of voters voted NO in his speech. Any commiserations or anything in a closely fought battle? That's a hell of a lot of people who voted YES, almost half the country and he didn't bother to mention them or address their concerns about encouraging them to be part of the UK (apart the more powers stuff which they weren't interested in).

When Obama won in 2008 part of his speech immediately was appealing to people who didn't vote for him that he would do his best to reach out to them regardless.

SpaceTime

I think you'll see very little change now in terms of increased devolution. Scotland's just thrown away the bargaining chip.

They should have pushed the referendum out a few years and negotiated much more aggressively.

I see it as squandered political capital.

sjb25

This is my official statement I respect the result but......

SharpshooterTom

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think the Scottish referendum will give the pro-EU side a false sense of security as I really think a large % of the English in particular have an actual hatred of the the word "Europe" and will be completely blinded by nationalism and just leave, even if that means throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Yip, I don't think NO to EU would be as motivated to vote, we certainly wont be getting 85% turnout because nobody really "loves" the EU. The red tops will run riot whipping up patriotic sentiment, only the BBC and Guardian (which nobody buys) will hold any sense of rationality in that debate.

namloc1980

Cameron's statement which couples any additional powers for Scotland with powers for England was never part of the promise to Scotland. Anyone who voted no on the back of the promise for more powers may be scratching their head this morning.