Scottish Independence discussion area

VinLieger

desertcircus wrote: »

Anti-Irish. Boards.ie. Right.

Anti-irish = not supporting sinn fein with very ounce of blood in your body to republicans :P

Spring Onion

Henlars67 wrote: »

that's the most stupid post I've ever seen

You don't read many posts here, do you?

Chrissybhoy

VinLieger wrote: »

Of course I will it was a defining moment in our countries history and has absolutely nothing to do with modern day sinn fein and their push for a UI.

Again I never mentioned SF. Course you will be celebrating like the rest if you read my OP you will see I use the word hypocrite. Out celebrating the men and woman who died fighting for a UI but yet nowadays when people support a UI their met with armchair this barstooler that for supporting UI. Hypocrites

Henlars67

LorMal wrote: »

I wont be 'celebrating' 1916. However, your link between SF 2014 and IRB 1916 is tenuous to say the least.
I suspect that someone like Micheal Collins or Eamon De Valera would despise modern day SF

As a shinner I'd certainly hope that Dev would despise us.

If he didn't we'd be doing something very very wrong

pablomakaveli

Anyway back to the topic of Scotland the result isn't a major surprise. I dont like seeing people having a go at them for voting no. It was up to them to decide their future and they opted for what they thought was best for them and nothing wrong with that either.

I don't think outsiders, including people in Ireland have a right to be looking down their nose at the Scots for voting no when an the outcome was never going to have a major effect on Ireland anyway. We weren't the ones who'd suffer if it went wrong.

who the fug

Not2Good wrote: »

I think we are all getting a wee bit off the topic of the thread!

No I think you will find we are getting on to the real agenda of the thread

catallus

Henlars67 wrote: »

that's the most stupid post I've ever seen

Stupid how?!

BoJack Horseman

catallus wrote: »

Stupid how?!

You got the Yes/No council split the wrong way around.

Harry Palmr

catallus wrote: »

4 councils voted no against 28 voting yes?

Nearly a 90% rejection.

Henlars67 wrote: »

that's the most stupid post I've ever seen

catallus wrote: »

Stupid how?!

BoJack Horseman, its more than that.

Councils are merely administrative areas, its how the population votes that matters! Highlands - almost empty, Glasgow - 1,000,000 people


Final result:

32 of 32 councils declared

Yes 44.7% 1,617,989

No 55.3% 2,001,926

Full breakdown of votes here http://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2014/sep/18/-sp-scottish-independence-referendum-results-in-full

Smiles35

who the fug wrote: »

No I think you will find we are getting on to the real agenda of the thread

If a vote comes, we arnt going to the ballot box hand in hand with Sinn Fein.

ebbsy

ebbsy wrote: »

I will predict 55-45 to the No side.

D'ont think it will be close.

Should have went to the bookies.

catallus

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Councils are merely administrative areas, its the population of each that matters! Highlands - almost empty, Glasgow - 1,000,000 people

Not a fan of democratic institutions are we now?

Beefy78

pickarooney wrote: »

Is the Catalonia one going ahead or not?

It is going ahead but Spain won't recognise the result.

dark crystal wrote: »

There's a Sky News clip doing the rounds of social media showing a table of 'No' votes, however when the camera zooms in a bit, you can clearly see two ballots with a 'Yes' mark sitting atop two of the piles.

They're pre-counted ballot papers.

Da Shins Kelly

LorMal wrote: »

I suspect that someone like Micheal Collins or Eamon De Valera would despise modern day SF

Does anyone care who or what Dev would or wouldn't have liked? His lasting effect on this country becomes more disturbing all the time.

VinLieger

Chrissybhoy wrote: »

Again I never mentioned SF. Course you will be celebrating like the rest if you read my OP you will see I use the word hypocrite. Out celebrating the men and woman who died fighting for a UI but yet nowadays when people support a UI their met with armchair this barstooler that for supporting UI. Hypocrites

UI now and UI then are two completely different prospects. UI then was a realistic goal that could have actually happened without too much mess or fuss.

A UI right now would be catastrophic for both countries. We are just recovering from a huge economic collapse and to be burdened with the broken economy and social problems in NI would cripple Ireland as a whole.

Ive used this argument before in relation to this wouldnt you much rather a UI to go down in history books as being a success for everyone economically socially culturally etc instead of having it be a complete and utter failure and leave Ireland in another economic slump and with social problems that potentially cripple it for the next 20 years?

I already know what your answer is cus again in this regard the vast majority of republicans cant help but think with their heart on this.

Also I know you didnt mention SF but you were responding directly to my post that did. Can you honestly not see the link there?

Maysa07

Change is never painful, only the resistance to change is painful. I guess that's why No won.

Chrissybhoy

VinLieger wrote: »

Of course I will it was a defining moment in our countries history and has absolutely nothing to do with modern day sinn fein and their push for a UI.

My reply was to you not supporting UI why would you celebrate 1916 when that's what them men and woman stood for UI?

Davarus Walrus

The decision has been made by the Scots. Good to see the majority of them didn't listen to the weasel words and the populist jingoistic nonsense spouted by the No side. Few things more nauseating and distasteful than nationalism of the type they were espousing. Some of the punters around here must be very sour seeing as they poured some much of their time into dancing on the head of a pin over the topic.

Da Shins Kelly

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Anyway back to the topic of Scotland the result isn't a major surprise. I dont like seeing people having a go at them for voting no. It was up to them to decide their future and they opted for what they thought was best for them and nothing wrong with that either.

I don't think outsiders, including people in Ireland have a right to be looking down their nose at the Scots for voting no when an the outcome was never going to have a major effect on Ireland anyway. We weren't the ones who'd suffer if it went wrong.

True, but it is a victory for short-sighted fear.

Either way, it does seem like things are going to have to change in the UK (although I don't think the Scots should be holding their breath over a sort of home rule situation, if that's they think they're going to get).

Harry Palmr

catallus wrote: »

Not a fan of democratic institutions are we now?

No idea what point you attempting to make. Admin areas matter in say the US electoral college system, (where one vote in each state could mean a candidate wins every state in the Union with a total majority of 50 votes!) but is utterly irrelevant in a referendum.

Dayum

Scotland has no right to call themselves a country anymore no more than Kerry does.

I heard one elderly woman on the Sky News being interviewed on the street and her reply was "I voted no because I think we're better as a team"? Better as a team? There is and never was a "team". Scotland are ruled by London. The options were do you want to be an independent nation or continue to be given orders. Yes or no.

lol "team".

And no democracy doesn't work. There are 45% or so people in Scotland this morning that have had their will and wants crushed. That's servitude.

Harry Palmr

Dayum wrote: »

Scotland has no right to call themselves a country anymore no more than Kerry does.

I heard one elderly woman on the Sky News being interviewed on the street and her reply was "I voted no because I think we're better as a team"? Better as a team? There is and never was a "team". Scotland are ruled by London. The options were do you want to be an independent nation or continue to be given orders. Yes or no.

lol "team".

Scotland is a county, its not a state. That's all.

And no democracy doesn't work. There are 45% or so people in Scotland this morning that have had their will and wants crushed. That's servitude

Democracy clearly does work, but you touch on something. Any such momentous decision should have needed more than a 50%+1 majority. Should have been a higher threshold, more like two thirds/one third (plus one vote).

VinLieger

Dayum wrote: »

And no democracy doesn't work. There are 45% or so people in Scotland this morning that have had their will and wants crushed. That's servitude.

Do you understand what democracy is?

Dayum

VinLieger wrote: »

Do you understand what democracy is?

I understand how unjust it is that 49% are ruled by the 51%.

Is that liberty? Not on your life.

catallus

Harry Palmr wrote: »

No idea what point you attempting to make.

My point is is that the the people have spoken and a pretty good reflection of the political landscape is reflected in that 28-4 landslide.

The people have spoken, for good or ill.

I'm no huge fan of the UK but it is strange that social-media twitterings in the run-up to the vote got it so abysmally wrong. The wisdom of crowds, indeed.

But it is a good day for genuine democracy.

Beefy78

Dayum wrote: »

Scotland has no right to call themselves a country anymore no more than Kerry does.

I heard one elderly woman on the Sky News being interviewed on the street and her reply was "I voted no because I think we're better as a team"? Better as a team? There is and never was a "team". Scotland are ruled by London. The options were do you want to be an independent nation or continue to be given orders. Yes or no.

lol "team".

And no democracy doesn't work. There are 45% or so people in Scotland this morning that have had their will and wants crushed. That's servitude.

I assume that had the result been 55/45 the other way you'd have posted a similar rant?

Democracy is annoying when people vote the wrong way.

Dayum

Beefy78 wrote: »

I assume that had the result been 55/45 the other way you'd have posted a similar rant?

Democracy is annoying when people vote the wrong way.

Absolutely I would have posted it. I am and have always been an opponent of democracy.

Two lions and a cow deciding what to have for dinner.

Beefy78

Dayum wrote: »

Absolutely I would have posted it. I am and have always been an opponent of democracy.

Fair enough, I can't argue with that.

VinLieger

Dayum wrote: »

Absolutely I would have posted it. I am and have always been an opponent of democracy.

Two lions and a cow deciding what to have for dinner.

Okay so what do you propose as a fairer alternative? Everyone does what they want and **** order and society?

SharpshooterTom

VinLieger wrote: »

A UI right now would be catastrophic for both countries. We are just recovering from a huge economic collapse and to be burdened with the broken economy and social problems in NI would cripple Ireland as a whole.

I don't think anyone other than hardline shinners are calling for vote on a UI right now. Most people know its not the time for a UI, to talk about it is even ridiculous.

But this conversation 20-30 years down the line will happen, and the ROI can't use the "we've just had an economic collapse" argument (hopefully) by then. Protestant/Catholic relations should improve and the bigots and loons from the troubles should have by then kicked the bucket.

Dayum

VinLieger wrote: »

Okay so what do you propose as a fairer alternative? Everyone does what they want and **** order and society?

Freedom.

VinLieger

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

I don't think anyone other than hardline shinners are calling for vote on a UI right now. Most people know its not the time for a UI, to talk about it is even ridiculous.

But this conversation 20-30 years down the line will happen, and the ROI can't use the "we've just had an economic collapse" argument (hopefully) by then. Protestant/Catholic relations should improve and the bigots and loons from the troubles should have by then kicked the bucket.

Oh I completely agree and for that reason I will very likely have adjusted my opinion on this by then because both countries may very well be ready for it.

Im not against a UI im just against the idea of a UI for the sake of a UI. It needs to be done at the right time.

Barely There

Dayum wrote: »

Freedom.

I see Braveheart has joined the thread.

Harry Palmr

On a lighter note *cough*

from indo/guardian

One of Ireland's best known broadcasting journalists was mugged in Edinburgh while covering the Scottish referendum. RTE presenter Philip Boucher Hayes had to hand over his recording equipment.

Then he agreed to pay £200 to the muggers to recover it. In a tweet about the incident he wrote: "Was told I was 'lucky you're not English.'"

The radio reporter told Dublin's Herald newspaper that he had "a bruised ego and a sore jaw" but was "grand otherwise". The mugging happened in Niddrie, a suburb of Edinburgh.

Grandpa Hassan

Dayum wrote: »

Freedom.

I think you'd find that in your analogy, under your alternative scenario, the cow would still get eaten

VinLieger

Dayum wrote: »

Freedom.

Ahh how eloquent, you want to try design a functioning society around that or are you prepared to just leave it at that and let people do whatever the **** they want?

Yamanoto

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

But this conversation 20-30 years down the line will happen, and the ROI can't use the "we've just had an economic collapse" argument (hopefully) by then. Protestant/Catholic relations should improve and the bigots and loons from the troubles should have by then kicked the bucket.

Maybe in that time, society in NI will have normalised and evolved to such an extent that it blurs the traditional boundaries, allowing both sides to buy into a distinctly Northern Irish identity. A united Northern Ireland should really be the imperative and would seem a more realistic goal than the wistful pursuit of things past.

NoviGlitzko

Beefy78 wrote: »

It is going ahead but Spain won't recognise the result.



They're pre-counted ballot papers.

I'm living in Barcelona at the moment and its a farce. The government are making silly threats according to locals. They say they will kick Barcelona F.C., Valencia etc. out of La Liga if the vote were to go through. Don't know if that's accurate enough. Another campaign of fear.

Still, these Catalan people are fiercely passionate & educated about what independence will bring, so I can see why Spain are bricking it. There was an independence day march days ago and a couple of Catalan's said just under 35% GDP of Spain comes from Barcelona alone, saying its one of the only places in Spain that isn't effected by the young work epidemic that's in the country. If there was a vote they would get their independence.

Fratton Fred

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Come on surely you have something better to try to wind up some silly posters than this childish ****!

Wind the Irish up? Not my intention at all.

I do marvel at the sour grapes from the uber patriots though who want to see the UK break up for no other reason than sheer hatred. The fact they are all crying in their beer gives me a warm feeling.

Common sense and pragmatism has won and some people can't handle that, despite the fact it has absolutely nothing to do with them whatsoever.

eeepaulo

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

I'm living in Barcelona at the moment and its a farce. The government are making silly threats according to locals. They say they will kick Barcelona F.C., Valencia etc. out of La Liga if the vote were to go through. Don't know if that's accurate enough. Another campaign of fear.

Still, these Catalan people are fiercely passionate & educated about what independence will bring, so I can see why Spain are bricking it. There was an independence day march days ago and a couple of Catalan's said just under 35% GDP of Spain comes from Barcelona alone, saying its one of the only places in Spain that isn't effected by the young work epidemic that's in the country. If there was a vote they would get their independence.

Do you know if they will let the vote go ahead and declare the result illegal or declare the vote itself illegal?

NoviGlitzko

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Wind the Irish up? Not my intention at all.

I do marvel at the sour grapes from the uber patriots though who want to see the UK break up for no other reason than sheer hatred. The fact they are all crying in their beer gives me a warm feeling.

Common sense and pragmatism has won and some people can't handle that, despite the fact it has absolutely nothing to do with them whatsoever.

A Yes vote would at the least enchance the calls for other countries seeking independence. United Ireland?

Fratton Fred

Dayum wrote: »

And no democracy doesn't work. There are 45% or so people in Scotland this morning that have had their will and wants crushed. That's servitude.

Maybe the 45% should be given their own country, because partition is such a good idea, right?

Miss Lizzie Jones

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

A Yes vote would at the least enchance the calls for other countries seeking independence. United Ireland?

Would love to see Ireland united one day.

fonecrusher1

Ah the power of the media as ever. Good job scaring the Scots over the last week into a no vote.

Nevermind, there will be another referendum in a few years and Scotland will vote for independence. Its a matter of time.:)

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Why? Does everyone who celebrates 1916 have to fit into your narrow minded stereotypes to celebrate?

Barely There wrote: »

It's always instructive (and dare I say, amusing) to get a little glimpse into the mind-set of a typical SF supporter.

WesternZulu wrote: »

How!!?
The Sin Fein of then and now are completely different.

You could argue at the time that using the gun in politics was a necessity but keeping that sentiment in the following decades was reckless.

LorMal wrote: »

I wont be 'celebrating' 1916. However, your link between SF 2014 and IRB 1916 is tenuous to say the least.
I suspect that someone like Micheal Collins or Eamon De Valera would despise modern day SF

Their methodology was exactly the same, and they had no problem behaving democratically once their aims had been achieved.
But the shameful thing is the use of the word 'depise'.
SF represent a growing number of Irish men and women. Truly shameful that you would 'despise' your fellow countrymen and women.
Disagree all you want, that is your right, but to stand and celebrate 1916 while you 'despise' that amount of people is truly f**ked up.

Wurzelbert

hadepsx wrote: »

Mel Gibson will be turning in his grave

actually, if i was gibson i’d make a movie now about wallace’s ghost coming back haunt all no-voters...

NoviGlitzko

eeepaulo wrote: »

Do you know if they will let the vote go ahead and declare the result illegal or declare the vote itself illegal?

As far as I can tell, it's almost as if the Spanish government are pretending it doesn't exist, while the Catalan's are convinced they will have independence by this time next year. Its hard to tell without bias from media as well. I personally think they will downplay it as long as possible .

pablomakaveli

Happyman42 wrote: »

Their methodology was exactly the same, and they had no problem behaving democratically once their aims had been achieved.
But the shameful thing is the use of the word 'depise'.
SF represent a growing number of Irish men and women. Truly shameful that you would 'despise' your fellow countrymen and women.
Disagree all you want, that is your right, but to stand and celebrate 1916 while you 'despise' that amount of people is truly f**ked up.

You go on ahead and twist peoples words all you want then.

Wurzelbert

VinLieger wrote: »

Do you understand what democracy is?

democracy is the rule of the masses...not always a good thing...

Playboy

The right decision imo. Hopefully this will mean more devolved powers for all regions which give residents the ability to manage the important aspects of their society whilst retaining the advantages of a combined Union wrt defense and foreign policy.