Scottish Independence discussion area

Happyman42

pablomakaveli wrote: »

You go on ahead and twist peoples words all you want then.

LorMal wrote:

Why do you equate anti-Sinn Fein with anti-Irish? I am as Irish as anyone and I despise Sinn Fein.

.

Da Shins Kelly

NoviGlitzko wrote: »

I'm living in Barcelona at the moment and its a farce. The government are making silly threats according to locals. They say they will kick Barcelona F.C., Valencia etc. out of La Liga if the vote were to go through. Don't know if that's accurate enough. Another campaign of fear.

Still, these Catalan people are fiercely passionate & educated about what independence will bring, so I can see why Spain are bricking it. There was an independence day march days ago and a couple of Catalan's said just under 35% GDP of Spain comes from Barcelona alone, saying its one of the only places in Spain that isn't effected by the young work epidemic that's in the country. If there was a vote they would get their independence.

When I was there about a year ago, the Spanish government were saying that a vote on Catalan independence would only be fair if the whole of Spain could vote on whether they want them to leave. Has that ridiculous argument been since dropped?

Grandpa Hassan

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Ah the power of the media as ever. Good job scaring the Scots over the last week into a no vote.

Nevermind, there will be another referendum in a few years and Scotland will vote for independence. Its a matter of time.:)

I'm not sure that there would necessarily be as large a yes vote in another referendum in X years time (which needs Westminster's agreement by the way, so very unlikely within the next decade, probably longer). The UK Government will be wise as to the risks, and will play it much smarter. They will grant enough devolved controls to Scotland that would take the wind out of the Yes vote's sails. And also oil revenues will likely decline, making the economic argument weaker as time goes by.

And Europe won't help Scotland out with respect to giving more clarity re. EU membership, currency etc which would boost the Yes campaign next time around.

Augmerson

Raging for pro-independence supporters, really would have loved to see a Yes vote.

Oakboy

LorMal wrote: »

What worries me is the Anniversary of 1916 in 2016. Our gob****e politicians will be tripping over themselves to prove that they have Republican heritage. ("my great grandfather fought the Tans in a shed in Ballygobackwards"). And the Shinners will dominate because the other eejits have no pride or intelligence.

and you wonder why people call you anti -irish when you come out with condescending demeaning tripe such as that :rolleyes:

NewCorkLad

Oakboy wrote: »

and you wonder why people call you anti -irish when you come out with condescending demeaning tripe such as that :rolleyes:

I think that was more of a dig at politicians trying to get into the lime light than anything else

VinLieger

Oakboy wrote: »

and you wonder why people call you anti -irish when you come out with condescending demeaning tripe such as that :rolleyes:

Thats not anti Irish, that's just anti parochial country ****e from holding our country back at making any progress.

Calling someone anti Irish simply for holding a differing opinion than you is the height of arrogance

Kav0777

VinLieger wrote: »

Thats not anti Irish, that's just anti parochial country ****e from holding our country back at making any progress.

Calling someone anti Irish simply for holding a differing opinion than you is the height of arrogance

Don't be so anti Irish....

fryup

55% to 45% comfortable win in the end

how did the polls get it so wrong??

fonecrusher1

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I'm not sure that there would necessarily be as large a yes vote in another referendum in X years time (which needs Westminster's agreement by the way, so very unlikely within the next decade, probably longer). The UK Government will be wise as to the risks, and will play it much smarter. They will grant enough devolved controls to Scotland that would take the wind out of the Yes vote's sails. And also oil revenues will likely decline, making the economic argument weaker as time goes by.

And Europe won't help Scotland out with respect to giving more clarity re. EU membership, currency etc which would boost the Yes campaign next time around.

I think the powers that be in the UK got a serious kick up the hole from this referendum and came pretty close to losing another rather large chunk of the 'kingdom'. Hence the relentless scaremongery over the last week to herd the undecided into the no camp.

renegademaster

fryup wrote: »

55% to 45% comfortable win in the end

how did the polls get it so wrong??

if you think that's a comfortable win imagine how quick a second referendum would be called for by the establishment/media if it was 55% yes to 45% no

NoviGlitzko

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

When I was there about a year ago, the Spanish government were saying that a vote on Catalan independence would only be fair if the whole of Spain could vote on whether they want them to leave. Has that ridiculous argument been since dropped?

If memory serves me correctly, it hasn't changed. Its ridiculous.

Grudaire

fryup wrote: »

55% to 45% comfortable win in the end

how did the polls get it so wrong??

Isn't that nearly precisely what the polls were saying over the last week?

Grandpa Hassan

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I think the powers that be in the UK got a serious kick up the hole from this referendum and came pretty close to losing another rather large chunk of the 'kingdom'. Hence the relentless scaremongery over the last week to herd the undecided into the no camp.

I don't deny that (though I would be on the side that it was realism rather than scaremongery).

But the 'kick up the hole' will go a long way to making sure that it doesn't get that close again.

SharpshooterTom

Barely There wrote: »

I see Braveheart has joined the thread.

It never left.

gladrags

We should set up an independent Republic with Scotland,and call it Scireland or Scoreland.

It makes total sense,we share the same culture, speak the same languages.

We would definitely win the Eurovision.

We could then set up a Troika with Wales,and surround the ****ing English,for once and for all.

Well?

Grandpa Hassan

renegademaster wrote: »

if you think that's a comfortable win imagine how quick a second referendum would be called for by the establishment/media if it was 55% yes to 45% no

That's just sensationalist nonsense. The establishment and media would know that they could not have any influence for second referendum. They would not jump up and down to try to drive an agenda which could not possibly happen

Oakboy

VinLieger wrote: »

Thats not anti Irish, that's just anti parochial country ****e from holding our country back at making any progress.

Calling someone anti Irish simply for holding a differing opinion than you is the height of arrogance

Yeah we have made no progress, far worse off now than we were at the foundation of the state. It is condescension of the highest degree, looking down your nose at those inferior bog dwellers and typical of the elite


You see the same subtle, some not so subtle, condescension from the usual unionist posters on here who constantly deride anything remotely Irish. Thanking anything which lauds how we have been such a failed state since 1922 (ya know despite the fact that thestandard of living here has sky rocketed since then), telling us we can have noopinion on matters because of how we all vote in the same gombeen politicians thewhole time (yes of course we “all” do that – tar all the the thick paddies withthe same brush), telling us that our neutrality in WW2 was ridiculous (yep because avoiding getting your small, new country absolutely demolished to bitsis “ridiculous” all right) and of course lest we not forget the daddy of them all – the revisionism. How they will constantly trot out the 800 years line just to deride it themselves as if it issomething to be laughed at. How we “bit the hand the fed us”, (an analogy all too appropriate (1845-1852)), when we removed British tyranny. And yes it was tyranny and has been tyranny up until the last 2 decades

NoviGlitzko

I think if a referendum was held for N. Ireland independence for example, the pro all Ireland campaign should learn from the campaign of Scotland. Get a headstart on them and say not to listen to scare tactics. You can imagine the other side would go down the same route as before. Not saying it's wrong or right.

Grandpa Hassan

fryup wrote: »

55% to 45% comfortable win in the end

how did the polls get it so wrong??

The polls got it almost exactly right. It has been consistently 48/52 for the last few months. One or two polls out of hundreds got it wrong (amazingly it only took one outlying poll to push Cameron etc into action)

Iwasfrozen

Well that's it folks. The No side won a comfortable victory and independence is off the table for a generation at least. If it ever does come back all the North Sea Oil will be gone as there's only 40 years left of the stuff.

I'm not a sadistic person but hearing the nationalists howl is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. Can't wait to hear Salmond's speech. #Smug

First Up

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I think the powers that be in the UK got a serious kick up the hole from this referendum and came pretty close to losing another rather large chunk of the 'kingdom'. Hence the relentless scaremongery over the last week to herd the undecided into the no camp.

Do we have to put up with much more of this tiresome crap? The Scottish electorate was not herded into anything. They made a choice based on their assessment of the risk and reward. Credit them with some intelligence.
And the No side was never in serious danger. The "core" nationalist vote in Scotland is about 33%. Add those who don't like the Tories and add some more for the impressionable young first time voters and you scrape 44-45. Anything above that would have needed a seismic shift.
If you care to look back over this thread you will see that some of us who know what we are talking about have been predicting precisely this for weeks. The fantasy that the Yes side had victory snatched from them is symptomatic of the distorted view of reality of much of the Yes campaign.

Oakboy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well that's it folks. The No side won a comfortable victory and independence is off the table for a generation at least. If it ever does come back all the North Sea Oil will be gone as there's only 40 years left of the stuff.

I'm not a sadistic person but hearing the nationalists howl is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. Can't wait to hear Salmond's speech. #Smug

Jaysus that's sad

Grudaire

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not a sadistic person but hearing the nationalists howl is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. Can't wait to hear Salmond's speech. #Smug

Large extra powers for the Scotish parliment?

Very sizable minority in favour of independence in spite of humongous uncertainty?

I wouldn't claim this as a huge victory for the No campaign by any amount. Salmond in strong position for future elections having achieved the referendum, and getting additional powers.

SharpshooterTom

Alex Salmond must be the most hated man in the UK right now. The UK press despises him, along with Sturgeon, the SNP. So much celebrating over his defeat its not true.

Oh boy DS forums, twitter etc is awash with gloating and hatred towards him and the SNP. "This is what you get for campaigning against England" "take that for your anti-English rhetoric" anti-English SNP scum, disrespecting England etc. No commiserations at all for the YES camp (they were like 45% of the vote don't forgot).

Some of its quite funny and tbh they may have a point actually :P, but I'm glad now that I know Sinn Fein and Irish nationalists aren't the most hated party within the UK any longer and the SNP have replaced them as their number bad boys. The press hates the SNP so much its hilarious.

Mr Murray's support at Wimbledon should be very interesting, judging from what I'm reading on the net, its not going to be good. :cool:

porsche959

FloatingVoter wrote: »

The 16 year olds were the wild card in this. I didn't know how they'd go. It will be interesting to find out how many of them voted and how they voted. Were they dragged down by mammy and told where to put the X or did they vote for and by themselves ? It'll be an interesting weekend to find this stuff out.

See here:

Iwasfrozen

Grudaire wrote: »

Large extra powers for the Scotish parliment?

Very sizable minority in favour of independence in spite of humongous uncertainty?

I wouldn't claim this as a huge victory for the No campaign by any amount. Salmond in strong position for future elections having achieved the referendum, and getting additional powers.

Powers are good. I'm in favor of a federal United Kingdom. I believe it would strengthen the UK in the long term.

Alternatives have to be looked at and questions why 45% of the scottish population voted to leave the UK have to be raised. Now that independence is no longer an option it can work towards fixing that.

fryup

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Mr Murray's support at Wimbledon should be very interesting, judging from what I'm reading on the net, its not going to be good. :cool:

the summer is a long way off, it'll be forgotten by then

spiralism

[QUOTE=bilston;92261521]I doubt you are correct. If they want to keep Scotland in the Union they will have to deliver on their promise. Their problem is that they also have to deliver for Northern Ireland, Wales and England. That's why it will take time.

Of course they should have had a plan in place before the campaign.[/QUOTE]

Or what? There's not going to be another vote after all.

SharpshooterTom

fryup wrote: »

the summer is a long way off, it'll be forgotten by then

It will damage his relationship with the regatta absolutely. Most will still support him (because lets face it they aint got anybody else!), but it will be reluctant cheering him. I'm absolutely sure that wont be forgotten and it will soften his support somewhat.

I didn't realise how despised the SNP were within England, I certainly see it now. Definitely have replaced Sinn Fein/IRA and any form Irish nationalism, its no contest.

Not2Good

You will remember how Ireland does referenda, when a result went against a government, we ran it again, and again until the people gave the result they wanted ….

Also, separately, I presume that that since the UK government got what they wanted the Scottish will have to wait 300 more years for their next chance of independence? I hope not ….

the_monkey

Andy Murray's grand slam winning days are over anyway ...

munchkin_utd

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Powers are good. I'm in favor of a federal United Kingdom. I believe it would strengthen the UK in the long term.

Alternatives have to be looked at and questions why 45% of the scottish population voted to leave the UK have to be raised. Now that independence is no longer an option it can work towards fixing that.

like I said a few pages back.
regions/ states/ cities in federal countries like the very independent minded Bavaria in Germany (or any of the states in the USA) have such extensive powers locally that they arent fussed in leaving the bigger country.

The details of the german or american politcal model isnt really one to be copying, but the idea of having the likes of housing sorted locally, education + health regionally and defence then nationally isnt a bad idea.

Beefy78

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Alex Salmond must be the most hated man in the UK right now. The UK press despises him, along with Sturgeon, the SNP. So much celebrating over his defeat its not true.

Oh boy DS forums, twitter etc is awash with gloating and hatred towards him and the SNP. "This is what you get for campaigning against England" "take that for your anti-English rhetoric" anti-English SNP scum, disrespecting England etc. No commiserations at all for the YES camp (they were like 45% of the vote don't forgot).

Some of its quite funny and tbh they may have a point actually :P, but I'm glad now that I know Sinn Fein and Irish nationalists aren't the most hated party within the UK any longer and the SNP have replaced them as their number bad boys. The press hates the SNP so much its hilarious.

Mr Murray's support at Wimbledon should be very interesting, judging from what I'm reading on the net, its not going to be good. :cool:

The best thing to do is not read a huge amount into the ramblings of a few outspoken individuals on the Internet.

Iwasfrozen

Not2Good wrote: »

You will remember how Ireland does referenda, when a result went against a government, we ran it again, and again until the people gave the result they wanted ….

Also, separately, I presume that that since the UK government got what they wanted the Scottish will have to wait 300 more years for their next chance of independence? I hope not ….

Nah just forty. Long enough for the oil to run out.

Pump boys. pump like crazy!

SharpshooterTom

Beefy78 wrote: »

The best thing to do is not read a huge amount into the ramblings of a few outspoken individuals on the Internet.

Yeah I know, but it is funny though.

Beefy78

Not2Good wrote: »

You will remember how Ireland does referenda, when a result went against a government, we ran it again, and again until the people gave the result they wanted ….

Also, separately, I presume that that since the UK government got what they wanted the Scottish will have to wait 300 more years for their next chance of independence? I hope not ….

Scotland will be independent whenever there's a clear mandate for it. Westminster will be mindful to not give the SNP any opportunity to push for another one any time soon though which is why I expect there to be movement early in the next Parliament towards further powers to Holyrood as agreed.

Da Shins Kelly

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well that's it folks. The No side won a comfortable victory and independence is off the table for a generation at least. If it ever does come back all the North Sea Oil will be gone as there's only 40 years left of the stuff.

I'm not a sadistic person but hearing the nationalists howl is giving me a warm fuzzy feeling. Can't wait to hear Salmond's speech. #Smug

Dont really know how you'd be smug about a 45%-55% win. The conversation is far from over.

dark crystal

the_monkey wrote: »

Andy Murray's grand slam winning days are over anyway ...

Nah, next time he wins, the English will embrace him as one of their own again.

bnt

First Up wrote: »

Do we have to put up with much more of this tiresome crap? The Scottish electorate was not herded into anything. They made a choice based on their assessment of the risk and reward. Credit them with some intelligence..

Indeed, I think there's some "projection" going on in this thread. Here in Ireland you had to struggle for your "independence", and now you're "invested" in it. Anyone who dares criticise e.g. the 1916 Uprising gets shouted down here. But Scotland's whole experience as part of the UK was drastically different to Ireland's. So while there is obviously a lot of the William Wallace / "independence for independence's Sake" going on, it's not as much of a policy driver there as it is here.

donfers

porsche959 wrote: »

See here:

The pensioners swung it for the No Camp - once they die off the next referendum is a formality for the Yesmen

Iwasfrozen

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Dont really know how you'd be smug about a 45%-55% win. The conversation is far from over.

Oh it is. Whatever about devolved powers independence is off the table for decades.

chrysagon

Scotland NOT so brave..... william wallace must be spinning in his grave!

porsche959

First Up wrote: »

Do we have to put up with much more of this tiresome crap? The Scottish electorate was not herded into anything. They made a choice based on their assessment of the risk and reward. Credit them with some intelligence.
And the No side was never in serious danger. The "core" nationalist vote in Scotland is about 33%. Add those who don't like the Tories and add some more for the impressionable young first time voters and you scrape 44-45. Anything above that would have needed a seismic shift.
If you care to look back over this thread you will see that some of us who know what we are talking about have been predicting precisely this for weeks. The fantasy that the Yes side had victory snatched from them is symptomatic of the distorted view of reality of much of the Yes campaign.

The core nationalist vote is 45%, as of yesterday. If it wasn't for a well financed London media campaign (with one editor receiving bonuses from his proprietors who don't even live in the UK), scare mongering and lies from the No side it would have been a lot higher.

Sunnyisland

The final results of the referendum on independence for Scotland cannot be escaped: the Scots have voted by 55% to 45% to remain under British and London rule. A once in a life-time opportunity for many has been rejected. The British nationalist and unionist media are crowing victory.

The Westminster lobby of Greater England smells blood in the air. Was this a win for Britishness and unionism? I think not. It was not “Better Together” that won the referendum campaign: it was “Project Fear”.
While many, many people in Ireland share the sense of disappointment brought about by the final polling results in our northern Gaelic neighbour there is also a sense of puzzlement. Why would the majority of Scots not want their own nation-state? Why the lack of courage or determination to take, what seems to us, the obvious next step? Perhaps the Scottish historical experience is not our own despite our many other similarities? Invasion, occupation, colonisation and annexation by an alien power and people was not theirs (at least not in the same way). Those centuries of bloodshed and tyranny seemingly make all the difference. Ethnocide, physical or cultural, leaves marks that cannot be erased. Just ask the people of Israel. Or Palestine.

However above that there is the most obvious point of all: the island nation of Ireland is not the island nations of Britain. We are Irish. They, if only geographically, are British.
Will there be fundamental changes in the constitutional, legislative and political structure of the so-called United Kingdom? Or will there be some tinkering around the edges and tokenistic scraps thrown to appease the demands for more? I suspect the latter. The British do not do magnanimity in victory. They do vindictiveness. The exaggerated claims of an era of “neverendums” will almost certainly prove false. Never again will a British government or parliament willingly – if reluctantly – grant a territorial unit of the UK the right to vote on secession. If comprehensive changes are made it will be on that issue.

In the words of Brennus before the gates of Rome: “Vae victis!”

http://ansionnachfionn.com/2014/09/19/woe-to-the-vanquished/

I agree with this.

SharpshooterTom

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Dont really know how you'd be smug about a 45%-55% win. The conversation is far from over.

Given that YES were only ahead in just two polls in 2 years (narrowly), and losing in 100s of others, a lot of them heavily, to get 45% is a great result for them. They had no right to win this, polls were unanimous in returning a NO vote, although it had been tightening in the last few weeks.

They were never in a position to win this the SNP, they had most of the media against them, zelebs, RBS etc. 45% guarantee's another referendum for sure. 30-35% certainly wouldn't have.

Fratton Fred

realies wrote: »

The final results of the referendum on independence for Scotland cannot be escaped: the Scots have voted by 55% to 45% to remain under British and London rule. A once in a life-time opportunity for many has been rejected. The British nationalist and unionist media are crowing victory.

The Westminster lobby of Greater England smells blood in the air. Was this a win for Britishness and unionism? I think not. It was not “Better Together” that won the referendum campaign: it was “Project Fear”.
While many, many people in Ireland share the sense of disappointment brought about by the final polling results in our northern Gaelic neighbour there is also a sense of puzzlement. Why would the majority of Scots not want their own nation-state? Why the lack of courage or determination to take, what seems to us, the obvious next step? Perhaps the Scottish historical experience is not our own despite our many other similarities? Invasion, occupation, colonisation and annexation by an alien power and people was not theirs (at least not in the same way). Those centuries of bloodshed and tyranny seemingly make all the difference. Ethnocide, physical or cultural, leaves marks that cannot be erased. Just ask the people of Israel. Or Palestine.

However above that there is the most obvious point of all: the island nation of Ireland is not the island nations of Britain. We are Irish. They, if only geographically, are British.
Will there be fundamental changes in the constitutional, legislative and political structure of the so-called United Kingdom? Or will there be some tinkering around the edges and tokenistic scraps thrown to appease the demands for more? I suspect the latter. The British do not do magnanimity in victory. They do vindictiveness. The exaggerated claims of an era of “neverendums” will almost certainly prove false. Never again will a British government or parliament willingly – if reluctantly – grant a territorial unit of the UK the right to vote on secession. If comprehensive changes are made it will be on that issue.

In the words of Brennus before the gates of Rome: “Vae victis!”

http://ansionnachfionn.com/2014/09/19/woe-to-the-vanquished/

I agree with this.

Those grapes just seem to get more and more sour.

Why exactly are Irish patriots so upset by this, it is irrelevant to them.

porsche959

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

45% guarantee's another referendum for sure.

Actually, it doesn't, for the reasons realies is talking about above. The vindictiveness of the London establishment, egged on by their lackies on this forum and elsewhere, John Bruton and those of that way of thinking.

OnTheCouch

porsche959 wrote: »

See here:

Even though the No camp won comfortably enough in the end, the above graphic is quite staggering, had the age limit been 54, the Yes side would have had a convincing win from what I can make out.

Dartz

"So you see Vladmir old boy, It's not enough to simply rig an election. You have to make the peasants believe the results as well."