Scottish Independence discussion area

Highflyer13

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh it is. Whatever about devolved powers independence is off the table for decades.

The conversation is most certainly not over. Scotland this morning is a very divided country. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. With younger voters opting for Yes, support for Independence will only strengthen over the coming decades imo.

porsche959

OnTheCouch wrote: »

Even though the No camp won comfortably enough in the end, the above graphic is quite staggering, had the age limit been 54, the Yes side would have had a convincing win from what I can make out.

Well, yes and no. Interesting to note that the second youngest cohort, the 18-24's, voted narrowly against. To be facetious, maybe they are the ones that have never seen Braveheart.

munchkin_utd

I dont quite see why everyone in Ireland was so up for an independent Scotland.

Their plan was to prosper as an english speaking, high tech country on the edge of europe in the eurozone(which comes with new EU membership) and whose stated intent was to be agressively competitive with Ireland (Salmond is quoted on this over the week) and over time leaving Ireland with less and less multinationals and inward investment.

So essentially Ireland Mk2 - which could only be a detremental thing for Ireland Mk1 !

porsche959

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I dont quite see why everyone in Ireland was so up for an independent Scotland.

Their plan was to prosper as an english speaking, high tech country on the edge of europe in the eurozone(which comes with new EU membership) and whose stated intent was to be agressively competitive with Ireland (Salmond is quoted on this over the week) and over time leaving Ireland with less and less multinationals and inward investment.

So essentially Ireland Mk2 - which could only be a detremental thing for Ireland Mk1 !

The evidence of this thread suggests that by no means was everyone in Ireland up for an independent Scotland. But, to address your point, why should competition be a bad thing.

desertcircus

Dayum wrote: »

Scotland has no right to call themselves a country anymore no more than Kerry does.

I heard one elderly woman on the Sky News being interviewed on the street and her reply was "I voted no because I think we're better as a team"? Better as a team? There is and never was a "team". Scotland are ruled by London. The options were do you want to be an independent nation or continue to be given orders. Yes or no.

lol "team".

And no democracy doesn't work. There are 45% or so people in Scotland this morning that have had their will and wants crushed. That's servitude.

Scotland is ruled by London? Of course it is, they elect representatives to go there for them. You do know that the last PM before Cameron was Scottish, right? Right?

castletownman

"They can take our lives, but they will never take our pensions"

Sunnyisland

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Those grapes just seem to get more and more sour.

Why exactly are Irish patriots so upset by this, it is irrelevant to them.

True Fred it's irrelevant to me ok, And I fully respect the decision of the Scottish people in there answer, but for me I can't get my head around why the Scottish people would not want there own independent country, yes it be very hard and yes there be lots of mistakes and learning to do, but it's all there own mistakes,there own learning and I would have no doubts that they would have got through all the early years of independence and all it entails,just like my own country has,will and continue to get stronger and better for all who live here.

porsche959

Good piece here from the conservative Spectator, acknowledges that the issue is far from settled:

The Union is saved – but at what cost?

The Nos have it, but Britain has been left a divided country. How did our politicians get the referendum battle so wrong?
0 Comments Fraser Nelson and James Forsyth 20 September 2014

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9318991/the-union-is-saved-but-at-what-cost/

munchkin_utd

porsche959 wrote: »

The evidence of this thread suggests that by no means was everyone in Ireland up for an independent Scotland. But, to address your point, why should competition be a bad thing.

em, indeed.
It would be a great thing for Ireland to be in competition with a country that can offer very similar things (english speaking, in euro zone, mild climate, off coast of europe tax breaks etc) BUT with the possible turbo boost of lashing heaps of oil cash at whoever'd come on board.

tayto lover

Bravehearts me arse.

porsche959

munchkin_utd wrote: »

em, indeed.
It would be a great thing for Ireland to be in competition with a country that can offer very similar things (english speaking, in euro zone, mild climate, off coast of europe tax breaks etc) BUT with the possible turbo boost of lashing heaps of oil cash at whoever'd come on board.

Points taken...not too sure about the mild climate though.

LorMal

Happyman42 wrote: »

Their methodology was exactly the same, and they had no problem behaving democratically once their aims had been achieved.
But the shameful thing is the use of the word 'depise'.
SF represent a growing number of Irish men and women. Truly shameful that you would 'despise' your fellow countrymen and women.
Disagree all you want, that is your right, but to stand and celebrate 1916 while you 'despise' that amount of people is truly f**ked up.

Totally and utterly despise them. Lived through the 'troubles' frm 1969 onwards and saw the murdering, maiming and torturing.
To hell with them.

LorMal

Highflyer13 wrote: »

The conversation is most certainly not over. Scotland this morning is a very divided country. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. With younger voters opting for Yes, support for Independence will only strengthen over the coming decades imo.

Hmmnnn - won't the younger voters get older over the coming decades?

mikeym

Why are the European Union so happy with the No Vote?

Arent the UK having a referendum on membership of the EU in the future.

Cosmo Kramer

porsche959 wrote: »

The evidence of this thread suggests that by no means was everyone in Ireland up for an independent Scotland. But, to address your point, why should competition be a bad thing.

Presumably because, in this case, Ireland is the business and not the consumer. Hard to argue other than a no vote being good for the Irish economy longer term.

Some desparately sad faces here in my office just outside Glasgow this morning. I can understand it - if, as an Irish person, I found out that my fellow countrymen felt that my country should not exist as an entity on the world stage, I'd be fairly devestated too.

Fratton Fred

realies wrote: »

True Fred it's irrelevant to me ok, And I fully respect the decision of the Scottish people in there answer, but for me I can't get my head around why the Scottish people would not want there own independent country, yes it be very hard and yes there be lots of mistakes and learning to do, but it's all there own mistakes,there own learning and I would have no doubts that they would have got through all the early years of independence and all it entails,just like my own country has,will and continue to get stronger and better for all who live here.

What advantage is there? Would they miraculously feel more Scottish than they already do? Would they suddenly all get jobs, or better healthcare? Will the average Scot suddenly get more say in the way the country is run?

As it stands, they have their own parliament making the vast majority of their decisions and have the benefit of being part of a state that has enormous resources.

I believe it is the best of both worlds.

Cosmo Kramer

mikeym wrote: »

Why are the European Union so happy with the No Vote?

Arent the UK having a referendum on membership of the EU in the future.

Scotland is very much pro Europe. Therefore a no vote today means that any future UK vote on the EU will include Scotland, thereby increasing the probably of the UK voting to stay in.

Cosmo Kramer

realies wrote: »

True Fred it's irrelevant to me ok, And I fully respect the decision of the Scottish people in there answer, but for me I can't get my head around why the Scottish people would not want there own independent country, yes it be very hard and yes there be lots of mistakes and learning to do, but it's all there own mistakes,there own learning and I would have no doubts that they would have got through all the early years of independence and all it entails,just like my own country has,will and continue to get stronger and better for all who live here.

Older people wanted to guarantee their pensions and middle class home owners wanted to protect their property values. Selfishness won the day over nationalism, for better or worse.

porsche959

mikeym wrote: »

Why are the European Union so happy with the No Vote?

The European Union is run by bureaucrats, they value stability above all else.

W1ll1s

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I believe it is the best of both worlds.

+1

Fratton Fred

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Older people wanted to guarantee their pensions and middle class home owners wanted to protect their property values. Selfishness won the day over nationalism, for better or worse.

What's nationalism if it isn't selfish?

LorMal

Oakboy wrote: »

Yeah we have made no progress, far worse off now than we were at the foundation of the state. It is condescension of the highest degree, looking down your nose at those inferior bog dwellers and typical of the elite


You see the same subtle, some not so subtle, condescension from the usual unionist posters on here who constantly deride anything remotely Irish. Thanking anything which lauds how we have been such a failed state since 1922 (ya know despite the fact that thestandard of living here has sky rocketed since then), telling us we can have noopinion on matters because of how we all vote in the same gombeen politicians thewhole time (yes of course we “all” do that – tar all the the thick paddies withthe same brush), telling us that our neutrality in WW2 was ridiculous (yep because avoiding getting your small, new country absolutely demolished to bitsis “ridiculous” all right) and of course lest we not forget the daddy of them all – the revisionism. How they will constantly trot out the 800 years line just to deride it themselves as if it issomething to be laughed at. How we “bit the hand the fed us”, (an analogy all too appropriate (1845-1852)), when we removed British tyranny. And yes it was tyranny and has been tyranny up until the last 2 decades

Ha Ha - now I'm a Unionist!! Hang on till I grab me sash and bowler!!
(Thanks - you are just supporting my argument by example).

BarryLyndon

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Vast majority of their own decisions? Taxation is not devolved, by far the most important one. For example, the bedroom tax is deeply unpopular in Scotland, it is highly unlikely a Scottish government would implement it. A Scottish government would not use Scotland as an experimental proving ground for a poll tax either.

I have to admit that I am disappointed with the Scottish decision. It is sad they don't have the self confidence to feel they can prosper on their own making decisions for themselves.

And if we are honest here I would have liked to see the last vestiges of the empire fall apart like the way the UK left many countries after it begrudgingly pulled out. It might also have tempered the desire of the remaining UK to go on foreign adventures maiming and killing innocent civilians in distant lands.

There are major exceptions, but as a rule (US, Oz, Canada, NZ) I don't think that reflects the evidence.

FTA69

The whole derision of Scottish independence as "petty nationalism" is laughable considering the No campaign was a steady stream of jingoism based around "Great Britain" and "how great a country we are together" and all of that sort of b*llocks. They were simply asking Scots to subscribe to a different kind of nationalism, one orientated around a state governed by an elite and presided over by the bloody Tories.

Beefy78

porsche959 wrote: »

Good piece here from the conservative Spectator, acknowledges that the issue is far from settled:



http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9318991/the-union-is-saved-but-at-what-cost/

That's a great read. Thank you.

LordNorbury

The Scottish question I think is only a very small part of a growing consensus that is gathering all over the EU and the US and indeed all over the developed world, especially in Ireland.

It seems to me that the world has changed to such an extent in recent years, that even if you are in a secure stable middle income job, you constantly fear for your job security, your taxes are so high that they are eroding your income substantially to the point where it is difficult to live any proper quality of life, housing is often unaffordable and security of any decent tenure is regularly absent.

People in the EU, rightly or wrongly, in my view are starting to see in very stark and real terms, how the capitalist system and the EU political agenda as we currently perceive it, has seriously diluted their quality of life in recent years. Just look at the set up in Ireland, a country that has been independent for the last 100 years, the middle class is being absolutely screwed, crumbs are being thrown at the middle class now from the table now as the pre-budget season descends upon us.

If Scotland thought all its problems would be solved by independence, then God help them I think.

BarryLyndon

Listen, Scotland would do just great as an independent nation. But despite holding all the aces (tail-end of the mother of all recessions, an unpopular Tory government in charge, trust in Westminster at shocking levels, aftermath of Commonwealth games, 16-17 year olds given the vote), they still couldn't sell it. It's not a lack of confidence, they are not Canada or Ireland. They have a quite different relationship with the rest of the UK, and are well entitled to have some lingering faith that the union is a preferable arrangement for their situation.

SharpshooterTom

BarryLyndon wrote: »

Listen, Scotland would do just great as an independent nation. But despite holding all the aces (tail-end of the mother of all recessions, an unpopular Tory government in charge, trust in Westminster at shocking levels, aftermath of Commonwealth games, 16-17 year olds given the vote), they still couldn't sell it. It's not a lack of confidence, they are not Canada or Ireland. They have a quite different relationship with the rest of the UK, and are well entitled to have some lingering faith that the union is a preferable arrangement for their situation.

That helped NO.

Scotland isn't Ireland as Ireland would vote near 100% YES, but Scotland can get a majority YES, its not totally impossible, if the SNP can stick around for another 15 years or so improving the confidence of the Scottish trust in them moreso we'll see where they stand then.

Scotlands a divided nation over the union, Ireland isn't.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

porsche959

LordNorbury wrote: »

People in the EU, rightly or wrongly, in my view are starting to see in very stark and real terms, how the capitalist system and the EU political agenda as we currently perceive it, has seriously diluted their quality of life in recent years. Just look at the set up in Ireland, a country that has been independent for the last 100 years, the middle class is being absolutely screwed, crumbs are being thrown at the middle class now from the table now as the pre-budget season descends upon us.

I am no great Europhile, but consider the messes we were in the 1950s and 1980s, Europe can't be blamed for the tendency of the Irish 'elite' to manage to completely wreck the economy every generation.

LordNorbury wrote: »

If Scotland thought all its problems would be solved by independence, then God help them I think.

Well, the results show otherwise, no?

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

The whole derision of Scottish independence as "petty nationalism" is laughable considering the No campaign was a steady stream of jingoism based around "Great Britain" and "how great a country we are together" and all of that sort of b*llocks. They were simply asking Scots to subscribe to a different kind of nationalism, one orientated around a state governed by an elite and presided over by the bloody Tories.

Whereas Scottish nationalism was based on "we're better off without you". And presided over by the bloody SNP.

FTA69

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Whereas Scottish nationalism was based on "we're better off without you". And presided over by the bloody SNP.

For all the flaws in the SNP, they aren't the people implementing systematic attacks on working class people and the welfare state; the Tory party are and Scotland is completely powerless to influence that.

Barely There

FTA69 wrote: »

For all the flaws in the SNP, they aren't the people implementing systematic attacks on working class people and the welfare state; the Tory party are and Scotland is completely powerless to influence that.

The Tory Party attacked the working class from Thatcher onwards by dragging a fair proportion of them into the middle classes and converting them to Tory voters.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Iwasfrozen

FTA69 wrote: »

For all the flaws in the SNP, they aren't the people implementing systematic attacks on working class people and the welfare state; the Tory party are and Scotland is completely powerless to influence that.

The welfare state needs to be attacked. And a lot harder than the Tories are at the moment.

FTA69

I know. All these silly ideas like free health care, a living wage for workers and workers' rights are simply a nuisance to the real heroes of the UK, namely big business.

WilyCoyote

Just like the Ukraine, the Scots who have (or think they have) monetary gain by staying in the UK ........ voted NO. Most of these are ones that would run over a fellow Scot to grab an English Pound.
'Nuff said!

porsche959

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The welfare state needs to be attacked. And a lot harder than the Tories are at the moment.

Ok, I guess that makes your agenda clear.

porsche959

From Lord Ashcroft polls:

Spring Onion

porsche959 wrote: »

From Lord Ashcroft polls:

Very interesting alright, I think Yes did about as well as they could but still hadn't a hope.
Its always about the economy.

ghogie91

Id say William Wallace is turning in his grave...

and his balls in theirs

HAHAHA

FTA69

Barely There wrote: »

The Tory Party attacked the working class from Thatcher onwards by dragging a fair proportion of them into the middle classes and converting them to Tory voters.

I never got this myself. What she mostly did (in an act of social vandalism) was sell off council housing; most of which is now in the hands of private-lease landlords. Around half of council housing in London is now being let out for extortionate amounts; the son of the Tory minister who actually implemented the policy owns around 100 for himself alone.

On top of that she then deliberately took a hatchet to British industry as opposed to trying to support it, a decision that has resulted in untold misery in these areas which can still be seen today.

spiralism

I just think it's remarkable in this day and age that a first world country can see itself being better off not having autonomy, especially being ran by a government so out of touch with their needs. Jesus, we'd vote near 100% in favour and we're enough ****wits to put Bertie in for three terms.

2ndcoming

desertcircus wrote: »

Anti-Irish. Boards.ie. Right.

I should have qualified anti-Irish independence.

Barely There wrote: »

If you despise SF you're anti-Irish?

Maybe it's sentiments like this that lead to so much derision of the Shinnerbots on boards.

It's perfectly possible to despise the murderers and gangsters that ran their own private army of thugs for years, and still feel 'Irish'.

Bad enough they tried to appropriate our flag during the troubles, they tried to appropriate the word 'Republican'

Now they're trying to appropriate patriotism.

I'm not a modern day Sinn Fein supporter. For every good idea they have two bad / impracticable ones.

This derision for actions initiated by essentially a bunch of amateurs under internment and state-sponsored oppression is the one I was directly referring to. It's a grand after-timing PC ideology held almost exclusively by people from the Republic with zero connection to Ulster.

Anyway, this type of stuff has been done to death on Boards and it's off-topic so carry on.

porsche959

spiralism wrote: »

I just think it's remarkable in this day and age that a first world country can see itself being better off not having autonomy, especially being ran by a government so out of touch with their needs. Jesus, we'd vote near 100% in favour and we're enough ****wits to put Bertie in for three terms.

Not sure if I'd fully agree that we'd vote near 100% in favour (hello, John Bruton type Cruiserites/Redmondites) but given the Scots referendum poll question was stark as this:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/scottish-independence-13-word-paper-ballot-decide-scotlands/story?id=25597129


...it is indeed striking that electorate turned it down. 54% of the Scottish electorate, confronted with that blunt question, answered an equally blunt 'No'.

spiralism

Berserker wrote: »

That vote will never happen. NI would never vote to leave the UK in favour of us. Barstool nationalism is one thing but when push comes to shove, common sense will prevail. They are going to get greater decision making power themselves as a result of this vote today.

Eventually there will be a nationalist majority government there and it will go to a vote because they'll push it.

Piliger

spiralism wrote: »

I just think it's remarkable in this day and age that a first world country can see itself being better off not having autonomy, especially being ran by a government so out of touch with their needs. Jesus, we'd vote near 100% in favour and we're enough ****wits to put Bertie in for three terms.

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

NewCorkLad

Piliger wrote: »

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

I think you will find that a lot of people will respect them more for voting with their heads instead of their hearts.

spiralism

Piliger wrote: »

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

This is true actually. Even as an example, I live in Amsterdam and at work this morning we were all talking about it, a bunch of different nationalities and we all were mocking them for it. It's not just the Irish nationalists who think they were short minded and weak in this decision

DEFTLEFTHAND

spiralism wrote: »

Eventually there will be a nationalist majority government there and it will go to a vote because they'll push it.

There would have to be a referendum north and south. Can you see the south voting for reunification?

Also how many middle class Catholics in NI would vote to leave the Union, didn't recent polls suggest the majority would be against such a move.