Scottish Independence discussion area

La_Gordy

Here is an FB link to how the different age groups voted:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10433086_10153175469711038_3677030361598052485_n.jpg?oh=c8b377526618fd0831d8cf8b076b4c64&oe=54884E61&__gda__=1419103774_da1e7050eb8e404d13748d0fc97a1e31

spiralism

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There would have to be a referendum north and south. Can you see the south voting for reunification?

Also how many middle class Catholics in NI would vote to leave the Union, didn't recent polls suggest the majority would be against such a move.

There's a very significant issue there and it's that they know that a reunification referendum passing would basically start the troubles mk II. Not a fear that hardline unionists who go ballistic over a flag being taken down would be ok with their worst fear being realised.

A reunification referendum passing would need a sizable majority of nationalists, the unionists somehow not kicking off or threatening A, B and C and good economic circumstances down here. Pipe dream for another generation at least.

I'm not saying it'd pass, but there would be a vote though. The south and reunification, i think it'd pass tbh, Fianna Fail and SF would definitely back it for one.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Wossack wrote: »

either way it falls (was optimistic for a Yes), gotta be impressed by that 85% voter turnout - incredible really

97% registered to vote in it, what happened to the missing 12% on the day I wonder

Phonehead

Piliger wrote: »

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

Actually I have to agree with this, I'm in Toronto and generally people are asking WTF.. why would you vote to get rid of your national identity and opt to be a colony.

How can they in all honestly proudly sing this again with as much passion as they do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vkYiCdn834

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

35cent

I think they made the right decision. The SNP didn't offer any kind of coherent plan for an independent Scotland.

RandomName2

Phonehead wrote: »

Actually I have to agree with this, I'm in Toronto and generally people are asking WTF.. why would you vote to get rid of your national identity and opt to be a colony.

How can they in all honestly proudly sing this again with as much passion as they do

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vkYiCdn834

I know, right?

I mean the same way that Galway is a colony of Dublin, and Dublin is a colony of Brussels.

No actually, that is a point, not just a sarcastic jab. When people preach "national self-determination" and then make an addendum saying (besides markets, defense, movement of people, and currency) what are you left with? Flags? Because if you're going to say the "power to enact one's own laws and collect one's own taxation" there is already that devolved power in places like Scotland. And Ireland. Doesn't stop us being subject to laws enacted in Brussels, mind.

If you're just doing it for the cultural-nationalistic craic; could just save it for the footy games (or Gaelic, whateveryou'rehavingyourself). Less expensive and safer in the long run. Ya boo Rangers, etc.

porsche959

Piliger wrote: »

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

From my totally non-scientific Twitter timeline survey, all the Scots creative types, musicians, artists, etc voted Yes. The banker/civil servant types No.

Piliger

spiralism wrote: »

This is true actually. Even as an example, I live in Amsterdam and at work this morning we were all talking about it, a bunch of different nationalities and we all were mocking them for it. It's not just the Irish nationalists who think they were short minded and weak in this decision

It's not Irish Nationalists. It is patriotic Irish people.

I am pie

Congratulations to the Scots on the turnout and the democratic triumph of a well executed referendum. I repsect the decision even it it is disappointing as I have some Scottish roots, being from Ulster planter stock.

I strongly suspect those hoping for more devolved powers will wait for a long time and be disappointed with the sop they are handed.

porsche959

Phonehead wrote: »

Actually I have to agree with this, I'm in Toronto and generally people are asking WTF.. why would you vote to get rid of your national identity and opt to be a colony.

How can they in all honestly proudly sing this again with as much passion as they do.

But surely there is a precedent in relatively recent history right in the country you're living in? Would the people in Toronto you know support the case of Quebecian independence? Because majority of Quebec electorate did not.

Galwayguy35

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There would have to be a referendum north and south. Can you see the south voting for reunification?

Also how many middle class Catholics in NI would vote to leave the Union, didn't recent polls suggest the majority would be against such a move.

Too much time has passed and we couldn't afford to take it back now anyway.

I agree with you, the Catholics/Nationalists are better off the way things stand, people there might complain about the NHS but it's way better than what we have.

Anyway no way we want to have to be dealing with the pond life that crawled out during the flag protests and cost their economy millions.

Scotland was different though, I think they missed an opportunity and may yet regret it.

Piliger

35cent wrote: »

I think they made the right decision. The SNP didn't offer any kind of coherent plan for an independent Scotland.

Yes they were outbid and couldn't assuage the fear that gripped the people. How sad is that for so called proud Scottish people.

Dayum

I think the Scottish lost a lot of respect on the world stage, particularly here in Ireland as we can relate to it more I assume.

I'm far from a patriot, nationalist and I despise Sinn Fein or any kind of "f***ck the queen" brigade crap but having seen what Scotland have been relegated to I can honestly say that I have never been more proud to be an Irishman than I am today.

Kav0777

nm wrote: »

97% registered to vote in it, what happened to the missing 12% on the day I wonder

Went to Austria to watch Celtic?

RandomName2

Dayum wrote: »

having seen what Scotland have been relegated to I can honestly say that I have never been more proud to be an Irishman than I am today.

What have they been relegated to?

Why would it make you more proud to be an Irishman?

nxbyveromdwjpg

Promises already being broken as Tories actually call for harsher conditions on Scotland

'Owen Paterson, who was sacked as environment secretary in the July cabinet reshuffle, called for the recall of parliament - currently in recess for the party conference season - and said the "chaotic" narrow No vote "undermines" the UK.

He described the promises made to Scotland as "rash" and said they were unacceptable.

He told BBC Shropshire that the preservation of the Barnett Formula for calculating Scotland's share of cash, was "unfair".

"It's such a lopsided settlement, it cannot last," he said.

"It is unfair Scottish politicians will continue to vote on taxes raised from the English, while voting special tax raising powers to Scotland alone," he added.

"Such a lopsided constitutional settlement cannot last; it is already causing real anger across England. If not resolved fairly for all the constituent parts of the UK for the long term, it will fall apart." '

http://huff.to/1AUssD4

Putin

Piliger wrote: »

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

As someone who lives in Scotland, it's a sad and embarrassing day for Scots who are proud of their heritage and national identity. But there have always been lackeys here, so the outcome comes as no surprise. The old adage that the Scots are as tight as fúck rings true, because many voted with their wallets and sold their souls in the process.

Dayum

RandomName2 wrote: »

What have they been relegated to?

Why would it make you more proud to be an Irishman?

There is no Scotland. Just Northern England now.

porsche959

nm wrote: »

Promises already being broken as Tories actually call for harsher conditions on Scotland

'Owen Paterson, who was sacked as environment secretary in the July cabinet reshuffle, called for the recall of parliament - currently in recess for the party conference season - and said the "chaotic" narrow No vote "undermines" the UK.

He described the promises made to Scotland as "rash" and said they were unacceptable.

He told BBC Shropshire that the preservation of the Barnett Formula for calculating Scotland's share of cash, was "unfair".

"It's such a lopsided settlement, it cannot last," he said.

"It is unfair Scottish politicians will continue to vote on taxes raised from the English, while voting special tax raising powers to Scotland alone," he added.

"Such a lopsided constitutional settlement cannot last; it is already causing real anger across England. If not resolved fairly for all the constituent parts of the UK for the long term, it will fall apart." '

http://huff.to/1AUssD4

No surprise. There were Tory MP's openly tweeting in run up to referendum they wouldn't support Cameron's concessions.

Jimoslimos

Well although I am mildly disappointed (but not surprised) at the result, it was great to see the issue being discussed robustly coupled with record turn-outs. Hopefully the younger generation will be motivated to remain politically active and Scotland will see a better class of politicians than the poor crop it currently has (Salmond included).

Whilst the immediate losers here are the Yes side, David Cameron may end up paying the price for this. He bullied his way to the previous referendum he wanted rejected. The change of GE voting system to Proportional Representation was watered down to an Alternative Vote system that even the Lib Dems couldn't properly persuade themselves, let alone the electorate, that that's what they wanted. Obviously DC thought he could pull a similar trick by offering an all or nothing option and form a schism in the yes camp. He won, but despite rather than because of the negative campaigning, and ended up offering concessions of power that his own backbench are dismayed at. It will be interesting to see how the proposed in/out EU referendum proceeds if he is re-elected.

Furthermore it raises the question as to the further set-up of the Union. Should there also be a devolved English parliament within a federal UK? Perhaps a re-arrangement of the House of Lords, giving equal representation to Eng, Sco, Wal and NI - regardless of population, a set-up similar to the Senate in the US and Australia.

I am pie

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Too much time has passed and we couldn't afford to take it back now anyway.

I agree with you, the Catholics/Nationalists are better off the way things stand, people there might complain about the NHS but it's way better than what we have.

Anyway no way we want to have to be dealing with the pond life that crawled out during the flag protests and cost their economy millions.

Scotland was different though, I think they missed an opportunity and may yet regret it.

This is a myth, there is no evidence in Catholic areas of unionist voting trends, not even the Alliance who have stated that they are neither unionist or nationalist (post nationalism) pick up much support in catholic areas.

Turnout is usually better in perceived nationalist areas, the protestant or unionist areas usually see lower turnout in middle class areas due to the paucity of options and the concept that not much is changing politically.

The Irish economy is rebounding quite well, if further devolution is pushed through we'll see the umbelical chord being further severed and less UK money pouring into the north. Already there is a major issue with cuts in welfare funding. Budget cuts and funding issue will be an issue in N.I in the coming years.

I guarantee you the british would not lobby as hard for NI as they did for Scotland. It's an inherited problem which they cant back away from, but if it would solve itself they would only be delighted.

Phonehead

porsche959 wrote: »

But surely there is a precedent in relatively recent history right in the country you're living in? Would the people in Toronto you know support the case of Quebecian independence? Because majority of Quebec electorate did not.

Quebec has for more power over it's own affairs than Scotland...

Believe me, the rest of Canada would most probably vote to have the Welfare State that is Quebec out of the Union

porsche959

I am pie wrote: »

This is a myth, there is no evidence in Catholic areas of unionist voting trends, not even the Alliance who have stated that they are neither unionist or nationalist (post nationalism) pick up much support in catholic areas.

Turnout is usually better in perceived nationalist areas, the protestant or unionist areas usually see lower turnout in middle class areas due to the paucity of options and the concept that not much is changing politically.

The Irish economy is rebounding quite well, if further devolution is pushed through we'll see the umbelical chord being further severed and less UK money pouring into the north. Already there is a major issue with cuts in welfare funding. Budget cuts and funding issue will be an issue in N.I in the coming years.

I guarantee you the british would not lobby as hard for NI as they did for Scotland. It's an inherited problem which they cant back away from, but if it would solve itself they would only be delighted.

Fair points, but you haven't addressed how we would deal with what Galwayguy rightly refers to as the 'pond life' Fleg protestors. Seriously, how would we? they're not going to just go away and decamp to, well, Scotland, for example.

Fratton Fred

FTA69 wrote: »

I know. All these silly ideas like free health care, a living wage for workers and workers' rights are simply a nuisance to the real heroes of the UK, namely big business.

Is health and social care better of in a small economy where there are questions over its ability to pay, or in a larger more stable economy?

Fescue

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is health and social care better of in a small economy where there are questions over its ability to pay, or in a larger more stable economy?

If you were to use the example of Switzerland vs France, then unquestionably its better in a small economy.

Galwayguy35

I am pie wrote: »

This is a myth, there is no evidence in Catholic areas of unionist voting trends, not even the Alliance who have stated that they are neither unionist or nationalist (post nationalism) pick up much support in catholic areas.

Turnout is usually better in perceived nationalist areas, the protestant or unionist areas usually see lower turnout in middle class areas due to the paucity of options and the concept that not much is changing politically.

The Irish economy is rebounding quite well, if further devolution is pushed through we'll see the umbelical chord being further severed and less UK money pouring into the north. Already there is a major issue with cuts in welfare funding. Budget cuts and funding issue will be an issue in N.I in the coming years.

I guarantee you the british would not lobby as hard for NI as they did for Scotland. It's an inherited problem which they cant back away from, but if it would solve itself they would only be delighted.

What's a myth?

I never suggested Nationalists vote for Unionist MLAs, I know SF mops most of the votes but I still think most of them are happy to remain where they are because economically they are better off.

Wages are smaller yes, but services are better and Westminister pumps a massive amount of money into the place which we couldn't afford to match.

Also we would have a vote in it and I don't think it would pass.

I agree with your last point, the Brits would throw it back to us in the morning if they could.

Fallschirmjager

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Is health and social care better of in a small economy where there are questions over its ability to pay, or in a larger more stable economy?

Actually neither. Free healthcare, by the way, free my arse, is sinking western economies. Uk is no different. Don't believe go check out what it costs. And spare me the cancer stories and the sick children ones. The harsh fact is no one can afford it and no politician has the balls to say so.

Gordon

Putin wrote: »

it's a sad and embarrassing day for Scots who are proud of their heritage and national identity.

Jeezo, that old chestnut again. I'm proud of my country's heritage and national identity (which also includes the uk you forget) and I want the best for Scotland which is with the union. I choose my girlfriends with my heart but my country's future with my head.

Fallschirmjager

Well I for one wish Scotland and the UK the very best. Huge turnout which is great, that's what they want, they have spoken.

Now on to the euro vote for the UK. Don't put the popcorn away just yet.

RandomName2

Putin wrote: »

As someone who lives in Scotland, it's a sad and embarrassing day for Scots who are proud of their heritage and national identity. But there have always been lackeys here, so the outcome comes as no surprise. The old adage that the Scots are as tight as fúck rings true, because many voted with their wallets and sold their souls in the process.

Piliger wrote: »

It really strips Scots of a lot of respect here in Ireland and around the world. They used to be seen as fiercely patriotic independent and strong. Now they have proven themselves to be weak, subservient and submissive in exchange for a few pieces of silver. The saddest day in all of Scottish history.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Older people wanted to guarantee their pensions and middle class home owners wanted to protect their property values. Selfishness won the day over nationalism, for better or worse.

LorMal wrote: »

Totally and utterly despise them.

Dartz wrote: »

"So you see Vladmir old boy, It's not enough to simply rig an election. You have to make the peasants believe the results as well."

etc.

"Scotland were a proud fierce independent people until they didn't do what we thought they should do, and now they're just scum. To be honest couldn't give a crap about ramifications they would have faced concerning health, revenue, defense, trade; they should have done it for us, as a puck in the mouth to the English because of the way they behaved during and after the first world war to us.

Wouldn't scrape those lousy "Scots" off my shoe! They should have grown a pair and shouldn't have allowed people just openly insult them or treat them like dirt.

Scumbags."

~

You guys are fcking hilarious! All the bile directed at your Celtic "brethern", when in reality you just want them to fight a non-existent proxy war on your behalf while simultaneously jeopardising our economy. Stupid, unpleasant, hypocritical and somewhat racist to boot.

Betty Bloggs

La_Gordy wrote: »

Here is an FB link to how the different age groups voted:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10433086_10153175469711038_3677030361598052485_n.jpg?oh=c8b377526618fd0831d8cf8b076b4c64&oe=54884E61&__gda__=1419103774_da1e7050eb8e404d13748d0fc97a1e31

Wow, 71% of 16/17 year olds voted Yes. There is such a massive gap and difference between most of the youth and the older voters- 43% of 55-64 yr olds and only 27% of 65+ voted Yes.

Their largest city voting Yes. Their second largest voting No. It must feel like their is such a divide between the public over there right now.
Must be heartbreaking to be on the Yes side especially if you are at a stage in life where you feel you will never see another referendum on the matter.
Even the winning No side must feel some level of strangeness or find it hard to be very jubilant knowing that almost half their population believe in independence.
I imagine it feels a very strange atmosphere in some parts today.

Piliger

Dayum wrote: »

I think the Scottish lost a lot of respect on the world stage, particularly here in Ireland as we can relate to it more I assume.

I'm far from a patriot, nationalist and I despise Sinn Fein or any kind of "f***ck the queen" brigade crap but having seen what Scotland have been relegated to I can honestly say that I have never been more proud to be an Irishman than I am today.

I agree. Proud that we broke free. Proud that our ancestors never sold their country, their freedom, their independence, their culture to the Empire for a few pieces of silver. Like you I abhor nationalism, and I like British people. But I have never been prouder that we are an independent nation running our own affairs and making our own decisions.

FatherTed

Feel bad for the 45%. As for the rest, they may as well call themselves North-Englanders.

eyescreamcone

Betty Bloggs wrote: »

Wow, 71% of 16/17 year olds voted Yes. There is such a massive gap and difference between most of the youth and the older voters- 43% of 55-64 yr olds and only 27% of 65+ voted Yes.

Their largest city voting Yes. Their second largest voting No. It must feel like their is such a divide between the public over there right now.
Must be heartbreaking to be on the Yes side especially if you are at a stage in life where you feel you will never see another referendum on the matter.
Even the winning No side must feel some level of strangeness or find it hard to be very jubilant knowing that almost half their population believe in independence.
I imagine it feels a very strange atmosphere in some parts today.

16/17 year olds voting is a joke anyway.

namloc1980

eyescreamcone wrote: »

16/17 year olds voting is a joke anyway.

I know, how dare they allow young people have a say in the future of their country.

KrustyBurger

Really disappointed that Scotland voted no. I genuinely cannot for the life of me understand why they didn't grasp the opportunity that was handed to them. It'll be a long long time before they're ever offered that opportunity again, and I suppose that's the nub of it...they have to be allowed to vote again. Fear has won once again.

eyescreamcone

namloc1980 wrote: »

I know, how dare they allow young people have a say in the future of their country.

Why not let 10 year olds vote while they are at it?

Voting is for adults. Over 18s only!

eeepaulo

Alex salmond has resigned

Irishcrx

Such a shame...

It'll never feel the same watching Braveheart again....something just won't be right anymore..

Dayum

Piliger wrote: »

I agree. Proud that we broke free. Proud that our ancestors never sold their country, their freedom, their independence, their culture to the Empire for a few pieces of silver. Like you I abhor nationalism, and I like British people. But I have never been prouder that we are an independent nation running our own affairs and making our own decisions.

My family are English. I love the English people - never have any of them done me personal harm. I'm lucky enough to have wonderful English friends that I can rely on. But I think it's perfectly logical for any region to gain sovereignty. It's better to make your decisions across the road than it is in hundreds of miles away.

A lot of people are throwing the pro-independence side in with the sectarian anti-England bigots and it's just no the case. I've no problem with England. My girlfriend is as English as can be.

Wurzelbert

namloc1980 wrote: »

I know, how dare they allow young people have a say in the future of their country.

16/17 year-olds voting is a joke...

tayto lover

Gordon wrote: »

Jeezo, that old chestnut again. I'm proud of my country's heritage and national identity (which also includes the uk you forget) and I want the best for Scotland which is with the union. I choose my girlfriends with my heart but my country's future with my head.

With your pocket you mean.
Gutless vote.

namloc1980

eeepaulo wrote: »

Alex salmond has resigned

Surprising. Getting 45% to vote yes was a huge achievement.

Dozen Wicked Words

So many condescending posters on one thread.

Gordon

tayto lover wrote: »

With your pocket you mean.
Gutless vote.

Nope, incorrect.

eyescreamcone

On occasions I've slagged off Welsh and Scottish acquaintances:

"You're not a real country - you're only a glorified county council"

Usually goes down well :rolleyes:

Wurzelbert

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Why not let 10 year olds vote while they are at it?

Voting is for adults. Over 18s only!

and over 21s only would be even better imo...voting is a great responsibility and not to be taken lightly...

Grandpa Hassan

Piliger wrote: »

It's not Irish Nationalists. It is patriotic Irish people.

You say that nationalist = patriot?

Fallschirmjager

In the mean time welcome to this Scotland

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/