Scottish Independence discussion area

Amirani

Wurzelbert wrote: »

and over 21s only would be even better imo...voting is a great responsibility and not to be taken lightly...

Your opinion, but no reason you should be able to force that on others. If somebody wants to take their voting lightly using spurious reasoning, then that's their democratic right.

I see no reason why 18 year olds shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Harry Palmr

25 is young enough.

Russians say count centres were too big.

http://www.newsweek.com/russian-pollster-brands-scottish-independence-referendum-last-century-271717

A Russian polling expert, Igor Borisov, has lambasted the Scottish Independence referendum process, in an interview with state media yesterday.

Borisov, who used to chair Russia’s Central Election Commission, a governmental organisation, claimed that the poll failed to meet basic international norms.

Voting in Scotland “does not conform to generally accepted international principles of referendums,” Borisov told RIA Novosti, a Russian-state news agency. Borisov and three other “experts” from the Russian Public Institute for Election Rights had travelled to Edinburgh to observe the voting and meet with representatives of NGOs, politicians and voters in the run-up to the referendum.

They'd know of course.

DLMA23

eyescreamcone wrote: »

16/17 year olds voting is a joke anyway.

& yet they can still join the defence forces in the UK at 16

Donkey Oaty

Fair play to Alex Salmond. He gave it a go, and isn't clinging on to power just for the sake of it.

Billy86

Wurzelbert wrote: »

16/17 year-olds voting is a joke...

And what from this referendum makes you think that, or backs it up?

Fred Swanson

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eeepaulo

namloc1980 wrote: »

Surprising. Getting 45% to vote yes was a huge achievement.

45% of 85% is absolutely massive, any politician would consider it to be awesome.

I heard joan burton use the word mandate 2 or 3 times in her acceptance speech as labour party leader. they got 20% of 70% in the election, then about 5% of 50% in the euros, followed by a labour party private vote

In the words of gil scott heron

Well, the first thing I want to say is: Mandate my ass!

Because it seems as though we've been convinced that 26% of the registered voters, not even 26% of the American people, but 26% of the registered voters form a mandate or a landslide. 21% voted for Skippy and 3, 4% voted for somebody else who might have been running.

Grandpa Hassan

tayto lover wrote: »

With your pocket you mean.
Gutless vote.

You're one of the no vote = Scottish traitor, right?

I am pie

porsche959 wrote: »

Fair points, but you haven't addressed how we would deal with what Galwayguy rightly refers to as the 'pond life' Fleg protestors. Seriously, how would we? they're not going to just go away and decamp to, well, Scotland, for example.

I don't have an answer to that problem, all I can say is that it is a problem which is going to have be considered as part of the democratic process.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Wurzelbert wrote: »

and over 21s only would be even better imo...voting is a great responsibility and not to be taken lightly...

They should disallow over 55s

Fescue

If the SNP are voted back into "power" in Scotland, does it not open the door for another referendum?

Ping Chow Chi

eyescreamcone wrote: »

On occasions I've slagged off Welsh and Scottish acquaintances:

"You're not a real country - you're only a glorified county council"

Usually goes down well :rolleyes:

meh, we will all be just glorified county councils of the EU at some point anyway .....

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

I am pie

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Fair play to Alex Salmond. He gave it a go, and isn't clinging on to power just for the sake of it.

He wa probably part of the problem, or at least the perception of the SNP as a socialist party was. I wonder how many Scottish nationalists, who would have been concerned about being governed by a left wing party whose policies they feared would jeopardise their livelihood, voted No?

I wonder if a more centrist party would have carried the vote?

Smiles35

Harry Palmr wrote: »

25 is young enough.

Russians say count centres were too big.

http://www.newsweek.com/russian-pollster-brands-scottish-independence-referendum-last-century-271717



They'd know of course.

If I saw RT hanging around my polling station I'd have a big stick in my hands for them.

tayto lover

Gordon wrote: »

Nope, incorrect.

Refusing the right to run your own affairs is beyond believable.

Fescue

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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This referendum reminds me of the election of Fianna Fail in 2007. I think fear of the unknown won the day. I have a feeling this issue won't go away and when it does happen again, whenever that is, yes will win a decisive victory.

tayto lover

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The majority of the Scottish voters didn't have the faith to trust Scottish people run their own affairs OR is the pound dictating to the brain again.

Grandpa Hassan

Fescue wrote: »

This referendum reminds me of the election of Fianna Fail in 2007. I think fear of the unknown won the day. I have a feeling this issue won't go away and when it does happen again, whenever that is, yes will win a decisive victory.

I disagree. I don't think there will ever be a yes vote as high as this. First, Westminster will not agree to another referendum for 15 or 20 years. And by then oil revenues will be well down, so the economic argument will be weaker. And also, London will be better prepared, and will have granted enough devolution to kill the big YES arguments

Billy86

It's going to be interesting to see how things go from here. The yes vote won but the margin was not huge... Over 1.6mn for, and just a shade over 2mn against, with a difference of less than 400,000.

One thing that was pointed out on the BBC that was interesting was that areas with lower turnout tended to favour YES while lower turnout favoured NO, sometimes unexpectedly. The middle and upper classes were of course far more likely to vote NO, but otherwise it does make me wonder how much of this correlation was down to the fear factor that was almost unanimously rolled out by the entire British media in recent weeks. Still, Scotland voted so their decision is their decision... those who wanted YES it did not vote (75% in Glasgow is typically amazing turnout, but for a vote like this it is actually quite disappointing I reckon, regardless of how that other 25% would have voted).

The real question though is how many that voted NO did so in the belief that absolutely huge changes will occur, whereas the stance of the YES voters y definition is a lot clearer. There is still a good possibility that the majority (or even a comfortable majority) want a lot of autonomy when you factor in those NO votes, and if Westminster fail to deliver, and pretty sharpish, this could get a little ugly.

It's going to be an interesting one to keep track k of in the coming months or years.

Henlars67

The magnitude of what they've done will hit many No voters over the coming weeks and months.

The cowards will take their regret to their graves.

Billy86

nm wrote: »

They should disallow over 55s

It's one of those weird things were a lot of people are looking out for their own interest. At 16/17 they are in fa our of younger voting. After their 18th it begins to turn to only over 18s, after their 21st they want a higher age again, and so on. It's the same reason only men over 30 used to be allowed vote.

A Dub in Glasgo

The big assumption (mistake) was the high turn out would favour the Yes side, it is looking ever more likely that the folk who do not not bother with politics as they are happy what they do and hence do not vote took one look at independence with the associated uncertainty and opportunity and said 'Fcuk that'

bnt

It can only be an ignorance of history that has some posters here accusing the Scottish people of being weak "lackeys" to England. Instead of sitting back and bemoaning their "defeat" in 1707 (which was more about the economy than anything else), the Scottish people got stuck in and helped to set the agenda for the whole UK. Modern Britain owes a good deal of its success to the progressive ideas of the Scottish Enlightenment, without which the Industrial Revolution would not have been possible. Anyone read Adam Smith lately?

Independence is a great idea, but it's got to be sustainable. It would have been no good to go it alone then have to come crawling back to UK or the EU because the economy fell off a cliff like Greece's did. This was a pragmatic result.

Fred Swanson

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Henlars67

Henlars67 wrote: »

The magnitude of what they've done will hit many No voters over the coming weeks and months.

The cowards will take their regret to their graves.

"The magnitude of what they've done"?!? They've voted for the status quo.

Newsflash for the slow learners: most scots are not that bothered about being in the united kingdom. This is not braveheart. Scotland is not occupied, it is not colonised, it IS part of a voluntary political union.

Red Nissan

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

took one look at independence with the associated uncertainty and opportunity and said 'Fcuk that'

My thoughts too but a link posted a little earlier shows one region with age/vote and the young upto 18 years of age voted overwhelmingly YES as did the over 60s. ????

Fred Swanson

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Piliger

bnt wrote: »

Independence is a great idea, but it's got to be sustainable. It would have been no good to go it alone then have to come crawling back to UK or the EU because the economy fell off a cliff like Greece's did. This was a pragmatic result.

Exactly. That the Scottish people are so lacking in any self belief and self confidence and pride that they actually think that without the glorious English they are incapable of managing an economy. It's really really sad and a low point in the long and previously proud history of a nation.

Piliger

Deleted User wrote: »

"The magnitude of what they've done"?!? They've voted for the status quo.

Newsflash for the slow learners: most scots are not that bothered about being in the united kingdom. This is not braveheart. Scotland is not occupied, it is not colonised, it IS part of a voluntary political union.

Yeah ... keep saying it over and over and I guess you'll believe it.

Fratton Fred

Fred Swanson wrote: »

A high turnout always favours the no side. They wanted it more. They stayed quiet and cast their vote. The rest is history as they say.

I think the referendum on eu membership will go the same way. The silent majority will come out and vote to stay in. Those that want change are always the most proactive.

spiralism

NewCorkLad wrote: »

I think you will find that a lot of people will respect them more for voting with their heads instead of their hearts.

Having talked to, just today, people i work with from Ireland, Holland, Australia, Iceland, Canada, Wales and America they all said the same thing and it was along the lines of: "Scotland bottled it, wtf"

LorMal

RandomName2 wrote: »

etc.

"Scotland were a proud fierce independent people until they didn't do what we thought they should do, and now they're just scum. To be honest couldn't give a crap about ramifications they would have faced concerning health, revenue, defense, trade; they should have done it for us, as a puck in the mouth to the English because of the way they behaved during and after the first world war to us.

Wouldn't scrape those lousy "Scots" off my shoe! They should have grown a pair and shouldn't have allowed people just openly insult them or treat them like dirt.

Scumbags."

~

You guys are fcking hilarious! All the bile directed at your Celtic "brethern", when in reality you just want them to fight a non-existent proxy war on your behalf while simultaneously jeopardising our economy. Stupid, unpleasant, hypocritical and somewhat racist to boot.

Think you misquoted me there...

Banjoxed

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I think the referendum on eu membership will go the same way. The silent majority will come out and vote to stay in. Those that want change are always the most proactive.

Yes were like a cult. Believe or be cast aside as a heretic. If nationalists are serious about Scotland separate from the Union then they will have to disassociate from the flag burners, the car keyers, the window breakers and Rev Stu, and instead make themselves fiscally and personally responsible. Jim Sillars outburst about a "Day of Reckoning" was one of many strategic errors that was made.

spiralism

Dayum wrote: »

I think the Scottish lost a lot of respect on the world stage, particularly here in Ireland as we can relate to it more I assume.

I'm far from a patriot, nationalist and I despise Sinn Fein or any kind of "f***ck the queen" brigade crap but having seen what Scotland have been relegated to I can honestly say that I have never been more proud to be an Irishman than I am today.

+1

Think i might stick an aul DVD like Michael Collins tonight now after work. They're further behind than we were a hundred years ago with far better resources and a free vote to secede and yet we took it while they're going to settle for essentially home rule. That was put on the table to us in 1914 and we said "**** that".

Don't mean to offend any scottish people but i lost a lot of respect for them as a country today, they just showed themselves as hypocrites when they claim such pride as a country yet want to be subservient to another.

Wurzelbert

DLMA23 wrote: »

& yet they can still join the defence forces in the UK at 16

true, maybe that's wrong as well

Dozen Wicked Words

spiralism wrote: »

+1

Think i might stick an aul DVD like Michael Collins tonight now after work. They're further behind than we were a hundred years ago with far better resources and a free vote to secede and yet we took it while they're going to settle for essentially home rule. That was put on the table to us in 1914 and we said "**** that".

Because the island of Ireland was such a peaceful, calm and tranquil place since then.

who the fug

Wurzelbert wrote: »

true, maybe that's wrong as well

But cannot go on active duty till their 18.

pablomakaveli

A lot of people starting to show their true colours on this thread. I think there was a lot of people on this site who wanted a Yes vote just to stick it to the UK and that they didn't really give a **** about Scotland. Evidenced by the people openly mocking the Scots for not making the decision these posters wanted.

As much as people like to think it is, independence isn't always the way forward. It worked for us eventually but there was a lot of painful years before it did. The Scots obviously feel like this isn't the right time for them. Nothing wrong with that at all.

fryup

anyone in scotland at the moment?

....just wondering whats the atmosphere like in scotland post-ref and in particular glasgow.....any aggro? any gloating? anyone give a sh!t?

cloud493

This thread is mad, people giving the Scots a hard time cos they didnt want what Ireland wanted

Wurzelbert

Billy86 wrote: »

And what from this referendum makes you think that, or backs it up?

i mean that in general and in any country

BlibBlab

LorMal wrote: »

I didn't say it threatens us. I said that it appears many Irish people seem threatened by the result.
I think it undermines the narrow world view we are taught in school. 800 years of oppression, brave little Ireland fought back and sent the British packing.

This 'one version of the truth' was controlled by our politicians who were originally primarily made up of the group who took up arms. (many of our current politicians still claim family heritage back to Old IRA/IRB.). We still teach our children this narrative.

Are we better off independent? Our economy has been a complete mess for most of the last 100 years. We were completely dominated and controlled by the church with the full backing of the state. We took a ridiculous neutrality stance in WW2 which Hitler would have laughted at had the Nazis won the Battle of Britain. We have a corrupt police force , corrupt politicians, a lousy health service, poor infrastructure, a bloated and inefficient public service, one of the highest national debts per capita in the world.......and we are shocked that Scotland voted No??

Some of the lack of historical knowledge witnessed in this discussion has been astonishing. How many posters have referred to Braveheart the movie as their reference point.

I think people are too willing to run the country down. We're one of the most advanced, developed, least corrupt and happiest countries in the world according to several metrics. People look at the period after independence and say we failed, but conveniently forget the previous century which included war, slums and famine. We got our independence after ww1 and a war of independence and civil war just before the Depression and ww2, which was always going to be tough. Could things have been done better? Definitely, but we had a tough time of it. And while I disagree with us staying neutral for the duration of ww2, getting bombed to bits wouldn't have done much for us either.

spiralism

Dozen Wicked Words wrote: »

Because the island of Ireland was such a peaceful, calm and tranquil place since then.

What exactly are you getting at? That we should have stayed in the UK? Of course there's been troubles but gaining independence leads to problems....if the world simply ran on doing what is easy it would be a very ****ed up place

The_Valeyard

The conspiracy forum lads are going to love this!!

A Dub in Glasgo

fryup wrote: »

anyone in scotland at the moment?

....just wondering whats the atmosphere like in scotland post-ref and in particular glasgow.....any aggro? any gloating? anyone give a sh!t?

Deflated, the only gloating I seen was from the Labour politicians. No aggro so far. Some of the folk in my work who voted No looked a bit sheepish today when they said the reason for the No vote was they did not like Salmond! Idiots

spiralism

BlibBlab wrote: »

I think people are too willing to run the country down. We're one of the most advanced, developed, least corrupt and happiest countries in the world according to several metrics. People look at the period after independence and say we failed, but conveniently forget the previous century which included war, slums and famine. We got our independence after ww1 and a war of independence and civil war just before the Depression and ww2, which was always going to be tough. Could things have been done better? Definitely, but we had a tough time of it. And while I disagree with us staying neutral for the duration of ww2, getting bombed to bits wouldn't have done much for us either.

lol

Agree for the most part but don't forget we had Fianna Fail in for two and a half terms being a shower of rotten crooks before you say we're not corrupt.

LorMal

Piliger wrote: »

Exactly. That the Scottish people are so lacking in any self belief and self confidence and pride that they actually think that without the glorious English they are incapable of managing an economy. It's really really sad and a low point in the long and previously proud history of a nation.

Totally misunderstanding their point of view there Piliger. They don't automatically see the UK as 'other' - they see themselves as a fully contributing partner in the UK.
It's not a lack of self belief. It's being happy being part of a union of nations. They don't see themselves as victims of the English anymore. That's because they have self esteem not because they lack it.
The vitriol being aimed at them by many Irish commentators indicates that we have not shed our victim hood as a nation and that we lack self esteem.

bnt

Piliger wrote: »

Exactly. That the Scottish people are so lacking in any self belief and self confidence and pride that they actually think that without the glorious English they are incapable of managing an economy. It's really really sad and a low point in the long and previously proud history of a nation.

Missed the point entirely. Self-belief and self-confidence are not enough to make a country work. The likes of Argentina or Venezuela are not lacking in those qualities, but did they guarantee success? Look at what's happened to Ireland in the last six years or so: can that be blamed on a lack of self-belief?

I don't think that Scotland's economy would have failed, but I do think that SNP did not do enough to explain how they would have helped it succeed. No economy stands on its own - with the possible exception of North Korea's - and so the issues of currencies, imports and exports, and fiscal policies need to be carefully examined and explained. They weren't. Quit projecting 1916 Irish nationalism on to 2014 Scottish realism.

BlaasForRafa

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The conspiracy forum lads are going to love this!!

Quick, someone get out the tinfoil hats!