Scottish Independence discussion area

tayto lover

Basil Fawlty wrote: »

There is a serious lack of respect from some people here towards the Scottish and their choice. If nothing else we should admire the conduct of all involved for carrying out a peaceful exercise. They have chosen to remain in the UK and I for one am happy with their choice, however had the vote went the other way I would have wished them well.

The Scottish are no cowards!

Yeah unlike those wimpish Ukrainians.

Donkey Oaty

tayto lover wrote: »

Well we know what's under their kilts now and it ain't balls.

They won't care - they're looking at the underwriting of NHS funding and pensions in their sporran.

Basil Fawlty

Basil Fawlty wrote: »

The Scottish are no cowards!

The Scottish proved that time and time again during WWII.

Piliger

Basil Fawlty wrote: »

There is a serious lack of respect from some people here towards the Scottish and their choice. If nothing else we should admire the conduct of all involved for carrying out a peaceful exercise. They have chosen to remain in the UK and I for one am happy with their choice, however had the vote went the other way I would have wished them well.

The Scottish are no cowards!

Yet they took the shilling.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

The Scottish proved that time and time again during WWII.

Yeah money is thicker than water.

Piliger

Piliger wrote: »

Yet they took the shilling.

They chose to stay in the union in exchange for greater autonomy.

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

They chose to stay in the union in exchange for greater autonomy.

Greater autonomy wasn't on the ballot. The vow isn't deliverable - not in a meaningful way at least.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The Scottish proved that time and time again during WWII.

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah money is thicker than water.

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

They chose to stay in the union in exchange for greater autonomy.

:pac: that's funny.

Grandpa Hassan

Basil Fawlty wrote: »

There is a serious lack of respect from some people here towards the Scottish and their choice. If nothing else we should admire the conduct of all involved for carrying out a peaceful exercise. They have chosen to remain in the UK and I for one am happy with their choice, however had the vote went the other way I would have wished them well.

The Scottish are no cowards!

They certainly are not. And I agree ghere is a huge amount of bitterness, projection, and lack of respect on this thread by those that disagree with the democratic decision. There was plenty of time for people to understand a binary choice. Clear arguments put forward by both sides. And the democratic result is clear. It will lead to positive developments in devolution across the whole of the UK.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Greater autonomy wasn't on the ballot

It was the carrot held up if they stayed.

DLMA23

Deleted User wrote: »

It was the carrot held up if they stayed.

Just like the carrot that was Home Rule for the Irish

DLMA23

DLMA23 wrote: »

Just like the carrot that was Home Rule for the Irish

Home rule when the war was over, well that didn't go to plan.

oppenheimer1

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

They certainly are not. And I agree ghere is a huge amount of bitterness, projection, and lack of respect on this thread by those that disagree with the democratic decision. There was plenty of time for people to understand a binary choice. Clear arguments put forward by both sides. And the democratic result is clear. It will lead to positive developments in devolution across the whole of the UK.

The will of the majority is not always right. For example a majority backed the 8th amendment to the Irish constitution - but plenty here would say it was wrong.

A Dub in Glasgo

Deleted User wrote: »

They chose to stay in the union in exchange for greater autonomy.

That was a promise that did not appear on the ballot paper and less than 12 hours after the polls closed, they are already rolling back on it

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

Home rule when the war was over, well that didn't go to plan.

I would be of the opinion that if Ireland hadn't gained independence when it did, and endured the second world war with Britain and the foundation of the welfare state, then it would be Ireland and not Scotland we would be talking about today.

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that if Ireland hadn't gained independence when it did, and endured the second world war with Britain and the foundation of the welfare state, then it would be Ireland and not Scotland we would be talking about today.

Who knows, would Ireland have voted yes???

Lawlesz

Some of the crap on here is unbelievable. Losing respect for Scotland, they bottled it etc.

Having lived there for a number of years (until April of this year) I have been following this closely. My two cents for what it is worth, is that Scottish Independence was never going to succeed. Salmonds 'crackpot' economic plan was never going to work. He was found out over and over again in his exaggeration of figures, uncertainty on currency, uncertainty on EU membership, the threats from the big businesses to pull out etc. He let his ego run away with him. He should have played the long game, held out for more guarantees than what he had. Going to the polls with so much uncertainty was suicidal. I know the UK government were not going to lie down and guarantee everything he wanted, but it seemed like he was happy to get the referendum at all, and make policy up as he went along. If he had have hung fire for a few more years, negotiated some concessions from the UKGOV and then went to the polls with a coherent plan (instead of the 'feck it lads, we'll be grand, trust me'), he might have had some chance.

You don't see parties like Sinn Fein (bad as they are) pushing for a United Ireland anymore; reason being A) they know we are f***ed and couldn't afford them, and the folks in the North are well enough off without joining a UI. I am sure when the circumstances are right and they know they have a very very good (almost certain) chance of winning, they will start pushing again. Adams will be long gone by the time that happens. Poor Wee Eck, bless him, couldn't stand to play the long game, and risk somebody else being 'the man who freed Scotland'.

Life in Scotland is not that bad, public transport is miles ahead of our own, free education, free health service. They really don't have it so bad, so for people here to claim they 'bottled it' shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I have seen it the last few weeks, the Barstool Republican Brigade in Ireland, going on about Scottish Independence. For a lot of them, it was a no brainer; go ahead, f**k the English, get your freedom etc. How many of these actually done any reading on the subject? And now today, people on this thread 'losing respect' for Scottish people. 'They s**t themselves and voted no' etc. You can be patriotic and proud to be a Scot and still vote no. What is the point in voting YES for the sake of it, knowing in all likelihood they would be worse off than before? Romantic notions of patriotism doesn't put bread on the table.

Nobody s**t themselves, the Scottish people had an objective think about the situation and went with what they felt was right for them. The will of the people won out, and that's democracy for you. So for those of you who have 'lost respect', how about taking the blinkers off and admiring them for having the conviction to go with what they felt was right.

Donkey Oaty

Romantic notions of patriotism doesn't put bread on the table.

No, but you can have a grand 'aul sing-song to take away the hunger pangs.

tayto lover

Lawlesz wrote: »

Some of the crap on here is unbelievable. Losing respect for Scotland, they bottled it etc.

Having lived there for a number of years (until April of this year) I have been following this closely. My two cents for what it is worth, is that Scottish Independence was never going to succeed. Salmonds 'crackpot' economic plan was never going to work. He was found out over and over again in his exaggeration of figures, uncertainty on currency, uncertainty on EU membership, the threats from the big businesses to pull out etc. He let his ego run away with him. He should have played the long game, held out for more guarantees than what he had. Going to the polls with so much uncertainty was suicidal. I know the UK government were not going to lie down and guarantee everything he wanted, but it seemed like he was happy to get the referendum at all, and make policy up as he went along. If he had have hung fire for a few more years, negotiated some concessions from the UKGOV and then went to the polls with a coherent plan (instead of the 'feck it lads, we'll be grand, trust me'), he might have had some chance.

You don't see parties like Sinn Fein (bad as they are) pushing for a United Ireland anymore; reason being A) they know we are f***ed and couldn't afford them, and the folks in the North are well enough off without joining a UI. I am sure when the circumstances are right and they know they have a very very good (almost certain) chance of winning, they will start pushing again. Adams will be long gone by the time that happens. Poor Wee Eck, bless him, couldn't stand to play the long game, and risk somebody else being 'the man who freed Scotland'.

Life in Scotland is not that bad, public transport is miles ahead of our own, free education, free health service. They really don't have it so bad, so for people here to claim they 'bottled it' shows a complete misunderstanding of the situation.

I have seen it the last few weeks, the Barstool Republican Brigade in Ireland, going on about Scottish Independence. For a lot of them, it was a no brainer; go ahead, f**k the English, get your freedom etc. How many of these actually done any reading on the subject? And now today, people on this thread 'losing respect' for Scottish people. 'They s**t themselves and voted no' etc. You can be patriotic and proud to be a Scot and still vote no. What is the point in voting YES for the sake of it, knowing in all likelihood they would be worse off than before? Romantic notions of patriotism doesn't put bread on the table.

Nobody s**t themselves, the Scottish people had an objective think about the situation and went with what they felt was right for them. The will of the people won out, and that's democracy for you. So for those of you who have 'lost respect', how about taking the blinkers off and admiring them for having the conviction to go with what they felt was right.

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

Who knows, would Ireland have voted yes???

Probably not. London would have left Ireland underdeveloped and a subsidy junkie and it would have been too painful to make a break imo.

In a few years Scotland will receive more from Westminster than it pays in taxes and will face the same dilemma if there is a future referendum on independence. The oil will be gone then too.

To be honest the right time for Scottish independence was in the 70's, when the oil boom started. Alas devolution failed then...

oppenheimer1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

To be honest the right time for Scottish independence was in the 70's, when the oil boom started. Alas devolution failed then...

Agree 100% With North sea oil on the horizon, it would have never have been allowed.

Lawlesz

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

To be honest the right time for Scottish independence was in the 70's, when the oil boom started. Alas devolution failed then...

Exactly

A Dub in Glasgo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Alas devolution failed then...

Scare stories back than as well and the McCrone report and then the 40% rule which allowed the dead to vote no. At least the latest, 'If you Don't Know, vote No' seem fair

moxin

Loyalists at it again. Why don't they sing for Scotland seeing as a No vote was "patriotic"?

BBC Live feed.

19:23: George Square latest Cameron Buttle BBC Scotland

It is very tense in the square. It has calmed down a bit but is still very tense.

Both sides have been throwing things, the police are in the middle trying to keep both sides apart.

One side is singing Flower of Scotland and the other is singing Rule Britannia.

Fratton Fred

moxin wrote: »

Loyalists at it again. Why don't they sing for Scotland seeing as a No vote was "patriotic"?

BBC Live feed.

Loyalists are on both sides throwing things at themselves?

tayto lover

moxin wrote: »

Loyalists at it again. Why don't they sing for Scotland seeing as a No vote was "patriotic"?

BBC Live feed.

No need to worry. The No side won't fight.:pac:

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Loyalists are on both sides throwing things at themselves?

because their target earlier have left the Square after it was reclaimed in a co-ordinated 'protest'


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/stand-off-between-pro-uk-and-independence-supporters-in-glasgows-george-square.1411150997

The civic space which had been taken over by Yes supporters in the run up to Thursday's poll saw dozens of pro-UK supporters waving Union flags converge on it. Yes campaigners waved Saltires in response.

The incident began at around tea-time after groups of young men were seen disembarking trains from Glasgow Central railway station in what appeared to be an organised protest.

Police described it as a 'few minor scuffles.'

Shocked commuters returning home from work were caught up in the drama, which drove a wedge through hopes of a reconcilliation between the opposing camps in the campaign.

Some of the pro-UK campaigners, some of whom wore hoodies to disguise their identity, made Nazi salutes and others let off smoke flares as the situation turned ugly.

Others lit flares as they taunted their rivals for losing Thursday's referendum poll.

The unpleasant scenes come just 24 hours after the Yes campaigners staged a final triumphant rally in the hope that Scotland would become independent.

Police appeared to have penned back the pro-UK supporters into an area of the square near one of the main statues directly adjacent to the Glasgow City Council chambers.

A Police Scotland spokesman said there had been no arrest, but minor scuffles. He added: "There are around 100 people from each side of the campaign taking over the square and roads surrounding it have been closed off."

DEFTLEFTHAND

Many haven't slept in two days and a lot of lager has been consumed. It's time for them to go to bed and stop this silly beggars.

Lnaa

Why is it seen as cowardly or unpatriotic to vote for what you genuinely believe is the best situation for your country? To be honest, there is an awful lot of shíttalk about people not being brave or proud enough. I was for yes, not so much for Scotland as for what it could lead to, but to accuse people of cowardice or treachery is extending it too much.

I'd also love to see these plastic patriots vote Ireland out of the EU.

Donkey Oaty

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The incident began at around tea-time

Not a phrase you'd see in the London press.

tayto lover

Lnaa wrote: »

Why is it seen as cowardly or unpatriotic to vote for what you genuinely believe is the best situation for your country? To be honest, there is an awful lot of shíttalk about people not being brave or proud enough. I was for yes, not so much for Scotland as for what it could lead to, but to accuse people of cowardice or treachery is extending it too much.

I'd also love to see these plastic patriots vote Ireland out of the EU.

Yeah right.:D

Lnaa

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

because their target earlier have left the Square after it was reclaimed in a co-ordinated 'protest'


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/stand-off-between-pro-uk-and-independence-supporters-in-glasgows-george-square.1411150997

No... you're not serious... what, like Scotland has latchycos? Really? Announce marshall law now! I really really hope other countries don't have yahoos too :rolleyes:.

A Dub in Glasgo

Lnaa wrote: »

I was for yes.

Now you are extracting the urine

A Dub in Glasgo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Many haven't slept in two days and a lot of lager has been consumed. It's time for them to go to bed and stop this silly beggars.

How did you get back from George Sq so quick?

Lnaa

tayto lover wrote: »

Yeah right.:D

I was for yes, not because I believe it was the best option for Scotland. I didn't, I thought no was. However, I believe Manchester, Liverpool, Yorkshire and other English regions are far more in a London headlock than Scotland is and absolutely need their own devolved governance. I feel, had Scotland voted yes, it would have forced the hand of Westminster to give Manchester what its looking for, a form of devolution. And that that would have a domino effect.

You see, the problem with this issue, certainly on this forum, is that too many have treated it as a chance to have a pop at England without understanding that English people are no more the enemy than Scottish, Irish or Welsh people. Westminster is the culprit, not England nor the English. Unfortunately, there are too many in Ireland who live centuries in the past.

Lnaa

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Now you are extracting the urine

See my post above...

Donkey Oaty

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

How did you get back from George Sq so quick?

Soon to be known as McMaidan or McTahrir, no doubt.

tayto lover

[QUOTE=Lnaa;92271432]I was for yes, not because I believe it was the best option for Scotland. I didn't, I thought no was. However, I believe Manchester, Liverpool, Yorkshire and other English regions are far more in a London headlock than Scotland is and absolutely need their own devolved governance. I feel, had Scotland voted yes, it would have forced the hand of Westminster to give Manchester what its looking for, a form of devolution. And that that would have a domino effect.

You see, the problem with this issue, certainly on this forum, is that too many have treated it as a chance to have a pop at England without understanding that English people are no more the enemy than Scottish, Irish or Welsh people. Westminster is the culprit, not England nor the English. Unfortunately, there are too many in Ireland who live centuries in the past.[/QUOTE]

I stopped reading there.

Aidric

In these times of political apathy in which we live it was at least refreshing to observe the engagement of people in this referendum. An 85% turnout is unheard of these days.

The Yes side led a very dynamic campaign but ultimately they fell short in the one area that matters most, the economy. They failed to present a clear vision of the economic reality of an independent Scotland. The undecided voters, which is where the swing lay imo, were always going to err on the side of caution and stick with what they knew in this context.

Conversely, instead of solidifying the union, this result has really opened the debate amongst the constituent parts.

Grandpa Hassan

DLMA23 wrote: »

Just like the carrot that was Home Rule for the Irish

Lnaa wrote: »

I was for yes, not because I believe it was the best option for Scotland. I didn't, I thought no was. However, I believe Manchester, Liverpool, Yorkshire and other English regions are far more in a London headlock than Scotland is and absolutely need their own devolved governance. I feel, had Scotland voted yes, it would have forced the hand of Westminster to give Manchester what its looking for, a form of devolution. And that that would have a domino effect.

You see, the problem with this issue, certainly on this forum, is that too many have treated it as a chance to have a pop at England without understanding that English people are no more the enemy than Scottish, Irish or Welsh people. Westminster is the culprit, not England nor the English. Unfortunately, there are too many in Ireland who live centuries in the past.

Following on from that is the fact that the massive losers from this are those living in NE England. Manchester will be okay due to HS2, meaning more investment, but English devolution will lead to conservatives getting their way in parliament which means the English can kiss goodbye to social justice. And, as we know, that disproportionally hits poorer parts of the north, along with Scotland. But the scots will be able to kill unpalatable Tory policies

Basically the scots have potentially screwed Leeds and Newcastle

Lnaa

tayto lover wrote: »

I stopped reading there.

LMAO... I would bet my last cent on the fact that if this referendum had been concerning some form of devolution for Manchester you wouldn't have taken a blind bit of notice... you see, seeing the bigger picture isn't conversant with being intelligent enough to ponder on an issue concerning England for long enough to move beyond simplistic and unwarranted hatred.

Galwayguy35

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Thank the gods you weren't around 90 odd years ago, Llyod George would have been wiping his feet on you.

Lnaa

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Following on from that is the fact that the massive losers from this are those living in NE England. Manchester will be okay due to HS2, meaning more investment, but English devolution will lead to conservatives getting their way in parliament which means the English can kiss goodbye to social justice. And, as we know, that disproportionally hits poorer parts of the north, along with Scotland. But the scots will be able to kill unpalatable Tory policies

Basically the scots have potentially screwed Leeds and Newcastle

I hold out hope that the current desire in Manchester for devolved power will lead to some form of concession. If Manchester made a go of it, other areas will want it. However, I do think Manchester is key in this. Its the one city that is (a)big enough to demand it and (b)cocksure enough of itself to go for it - Birmingham isn't for a second for example. If Manchester got it and made a success of it, you can bet Liverpool and Yorkshire would follow.

Lnaa

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Thank the gods you weren't around 90 odd years ago, Llyod George would have been wiping his feet on you.

As I said earlier, I wait with abaited breath for the armchair republicans to demand a referendum on EU membership. Wanting freedom from England on the one hand only to cede sovereignity to Brussels and Berlin on the other is shíttalk.

tayto lover

Lnaa wrote: »

LMAO... I would bet my last cent on the fact that if this referendum had been concerning some form of devolution for Manchester you wouldn't have taken a blind bit of notice... you see, seeing the bigger picture isn't conversant with being intelligent enough to ponder on an issue concerning England for long enough to move beyond simplistic and unwarranted hatred.

The first few lines showed a lot of intelligence.:pac:

tayto lover

Lnaa wrote: »

As I said earlier, I wait with abaited breath for the armchair republicans to demand a referendum on EU membership. Wanting freedom from England on the one hand only to cede sovereignity to Brussels and Berlin on the other is shíttalk.

I think your conscience is getting to you already.
Go to bed and try to get some sleep. If you can.

porsche959

I don't think anyone should imply the far right bigots 'celebrating' the result in George Square are your typical no voters. You find maladjusted hooligans all over the world.

Grandpa Hassan

Lnaa wrote: »

I hold out hope that the current desire in Manchester for devolved power will lead to some form of concession. If Manchester made a go of it, other areas will want it. However, I do think Manchester is key in this. Its the one city that is (a)big enough to demand it and (b)cocksure enough of itself to go for it - Birmingham isn't for a second for example. If Manchester got it and made a success of it, you can bet Liverpool and Yorkshire would follow.

But I think Manchester will be bought off by investment. HS2 is a big deal for them. I am in business in London and people openly talk about the attractiveness of Manchester. I know a couple of major companies relocating people there. Ironically RBS is one, Manchester will do okay no matter what. It's the NE that will be screwed by English devolution

Yamanoto

Lnaa wrote: »

Why is it seen as cowardly or unpatriotic to vote for what you genuinely believe is the best situation for your country?

Rather than accepting that all Scots went out and voted with careful consideration and in good conscience, it sits more comfortably for the chuckys hereabouts to frame it in terms of gutlessness and obsequiousness on the part of the No side. It fits into their world view is of course, as how could anyone not see Britain as the malevolent pit of avarice, wickedness and slayer of puppies and kittens that it so clearly is.