Very short-lived restaurants

Boulevardier

I cannot believe the number of restaurants in and near Dublin which open for a few weeks and then are closed, and usually replaced at the same venue by another restaurant. The phenomenon has become much worse in the last 2 or 3 years.

I am NOT referring to the so-called "pop-up" restaurants, which market themselves on their temporariness.

Examples: in Rathmines, there is a noodle restaurant which is all decked out with menus in the window etc but which has never actually opened. In Bray, 3 different restaurants have opened within the last year at the same main-street venue.

I suppose my question really is: considering that bank credit is supposedly hard to come by these days, how and why are these no-hope restaurants getting the money to equip themselves and open?

Perhaps it is some tax thing, or is it just that the money is being put up by some very over-optimistic people?

Bandara

Boulevardier wrote: »

I cannot believe the number of restaurants in and near Dublin which open for a few weeks and then are closed, and usually replaced at the same venue by another restaurant. The phenomenon has become much worse in the last 2 or 3 years.

I am NOT referring to the so-called "pop-up" restaurants, which market themselves on their temporariness.

Examples: in Rathmines, there is a noodle restaurant which is all decked out with menus in the window etc but which has never actually opened. In Bray, 3 different restaurants have opened within the last year at the same main-street venue.

I suppose my question really is: considering that bank credit is supposedly hard to come by these days, how and why are these no-hope restaurants getting the money to equip themselves and open?

Perhaps it is some tax thing, or is it just that the money is being put up by some very over-optimistic people?

Redundancy money, just like all the people who 'always wanted to own a cafe'. Until they actually open one !

Boulevardier

Bandara, I cant see how that would work. Can you be more specific?

syklops

Boulevardier wrote: »

Bandara, I cant see how that would work. Can you be more specific?

It doesnt cost very much money to set up a cafe. Lots of people dream of running their own cafe/shop/restaurant/pub, then, having invested a couple of thousand and working their ass off for 6/8/12/16 weeks they see how much money profit they have made(if any) and realise their mistake and close before they lose anymore money.

miamee

I did a course a few years ago about starting your own business. One of the things that struck me was that the instructor (who ran his own company) was adamant that no new business will make a profit in the first year and quite probably longer (2-3 years) so any investment/bank loans needed to cover all costs for that length of time.

I can only assume that these people put up their own/friends/relatives money and have an inadequate business plan thinking that they will make money once they open the front door or soon after.

You're right though, there is a large number of them in and around the city centre too and most of them you would never hear about (no advertising) other than walking by some day.

jimmii

The instructor saying no new business makes money in the first year is clearly just being dramatic as that obviously isn't the case at all it is very tough though.

With food places I would imagine a few started kitting the place out then discovered they had to apply for all sorts of licenses to prepare food on the premises and that held things up for a while or maybe they failed them or maybe they just realised that there are half a dozen cafes on every street and realises that another yet another en cafe isn't going to stand out much I think you need to be a little crazy to think opening a cafe right now is a great first business. You probably have to be a little crazy to open a business anyway though at the same time!

chopper6

Upwards only rent reviews,VAT costs,high cost of supplies,high costs of utilities,high staff costs,high insurance costs,bad location,lack of customers etc etc.

Muahahaha

Could money laundering also be a reason for this phenomen ? Since the recession began short retail leases are a lot easier to attain, especially in suburbs and commuter towns. A criminal enterprise could easily organise a front man to run a cafe for six months if they had a few hundred thousand of hot money to wash.
I think redundancy money would certainly explain the majority of it but perhaps other things are going on as a background to that.

Kurooi

I would say it's because of the nature of how restaurants earn their money. They would cash in very well from returning customers and recommendations, that takes a long time to build up. Set up a new shop like Dealz and I'm right in because it's new, set up a new restaurant and for the very same reason I will stay away from it, I'd rather go down the road to a place I've been to before (where as a matter of fact I was first invited by a friend) and won't risk eating something bad. I think that applies to a lot of people.

Maybe before with more spending the venues were packed and more people went to just any restaurant, but now I recon it would take a well managed one and good food then months of losses to really stay in business. Maybe they fall due to that, shortage of cash, dissatisfaction with the profits and little interest from the consumers.

Aard

I too get the impression that a lot of cafés and restaurants are set up by dreamers rather than businesspeople.

Boom__Boom

Aard wrote: »

I too get the impression that a lot of cafés and restaurants are set up by dreamers rather than businesspeople.

A lot of the time you have people who aren't actually business people setting up cafes and restaurants.

A lot of very talented chefs make terrible businesspeople - it's not really surprising - the skill set needed to be a chef is very different to the skill set required to run a business.

chopper6

Location is everything.

Gary Rhodes set up a restaurant in Capel street a few years ago...it bombed...people just werent willing to travel there to pay big bucks for food.

Robbo

chopper6 wrote: »

Upwards only rent reviews,VAT costs,high cost of supplies,high costs of utilities,high staff costs,high insurance costs,bad location,lack of customers etc etc.

Not allowed in new leases since 2010.

Another possible explanation is the Back To Work Enterprise Allowance which seems to have fads in what it backs. Are there any fish pedicure or baking supply places left?

Popup restaurant seems to be shorthand for "if this doesn't work out I planned it this way".

Boulevardier

I think that the above theories all have some truth in them, but it still does not answer one questions: How do these restaurateurs get bank or other credit for equipping these no-hope restaurants, and once they do get into trouble, why do they fold their tents so quickly?

Shouldn't a creditor who is foolish enough to back such a restaurant not try to hang in there a little more than a few weeks, perhaps do a bit of marketing, special offers etc? These places do not seem to even try.

Muahahaha

chopper6 wrote: »

Location is everything.

Gary Rhodes set up a restaurant in Capel street a few years ago...it bombed...people just werent willing to travel there to pay big bucks for food.

Not necessarily, it depends what you are offering and how many of your competitors offer a similar product. Gary Rhodes restaurant failed not because of its location but because he opened his doors less than a year before the biggest recession since the Great Depression began. It was nothing to do with his location because Chapter One had already proved that you can put a fine dining restaurant on Parnell Square of all places and the people would still come, it's packed out day after day, people go out of their way to eat there.

The same goes for Nevin Maguires restaurant up in Cavan, it's not exactly a superb location for the majority of his customers who have to travel from Dublin, Meath, Kildare, etc. But the guy is decorated with Michilin stars and the food is superb so people don't give a dam about the location and are more than willing to get in the car and drive a 200 mile round trip to eat there.

Muahahaha

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that the above theories all have some truth in them, but it still does not answer one questions: How do these restaurateurs get bank or other credit for equipping these no-hope restaurants, and once they do get into trouble, why do they fold their tents so quickly?

Shouldn't a creditor who is foolish enough to back such a restaurant not try to hang in there a little more than a few weeks, perhaps do a bit of marketing, special offers etc? These places do not seem to even try.

The dreamers theory certainly would explain most of it.

You make a good point when you talk about how businesses dont even seem to try, often you will find it is the case that they do try but they do not know the correct way to try. You only need to look at programs like At Your Service and Fergal Quinn's Retail Therapy to find out that often in hospitality and retail the owners themselves don't have a clue what they're doing and need to have their hand held while camera crews film the lot. Programs like that show me that some people are in business because they were the first to open their variety of retail premises in the town and usually no one else competes. But then when someone does set up and compete the owner gets the sh1ts because suddenly they've been caught with their pants down by a competitor for the first time and they are running rings around them in terms of price/value/service and suddenly their turnover is down 30-50% and they're in trouble.

I think another factor why businesses open and close so quick is the location they choose and the number of competitors already around you. Asian immigrants can often be guilty of this but sometimes Irish businesses too. If an Asian food entrepreneur sees an Asian cafe and then another one sets up shortly after very near to it he is not thinking that maybe the street is saturated with Asian food and I should set up a Tex Mex, he's thinking that the street is calling out for a third Asian cafe because two isn't enough to satisfy the demand. You can see this problem on Dame Street where there are about five or six Asian or Chinese restaurants within a stones throw and none of them do great business as there just isnt enough business to go around.

Also as well there are certain trends that underpin the type of food that people go out and eat. This doesn't apply to all diners but some are swayed by trends. For example in Dublin 2 years ago it seemed like everyone was raving on about Burritoes, there was huge threads on it here and university students all over Dublin were going wild for them. In the space of 6 months about 10 different burrito shops had opened and at the beginning they were all packed. But two years on pass them now and they aren't as busy as they once were and I'd expect to see a few of them hit the wall in the next while, the quality ones in good locations will survive. Maybe the trend has moved onto noodle bars or sushi trains, I don't know, but any simple observation of bums on seats will show you it's moved away from Burritoes somewhat. For the Burrito shop owner that's a pain in the ass but he is no longer 'on trend' with the market he serves, a demographic who can be very fickle and go from loving your restaurant to boycotting it altogether in a very short space of time because something 'cooler' has come along and all the crowd are now going there.

Bandara

[QUOTE=.

The same goes for Nevin Maguires restaurant up in Cavan, it's not exactly a superb location for the majority of his customers who have to travel from Dublin, Meath, Kildare, etc. But the guy is decorated with Michilin stars and the food is superb so people don't give a dam about the location and are more than willing to get in the car and drive a 200 mile round trip to eat there.[/QUOTE]


Neven has never won a Michelin Star. And he won't either if he continues cooking the way he does now

chopper6

Muahahaha wrote: »

Not necessarily, it depends what you are offering and how many of your competitors offer a similar product. Gary Rhodes restaurant failed not because of its location but because he opened his doors less than a year before the biggest recession since the Great Depression began. .

Oh and i meant to say his food was crap.

I'm not one to send stufff back but two members of my table sent food back to the kitchens,the portions were miniscule and it was somewhere between average and utter rubbish.

spurious

chopper6 wrote: »

Location is everything.

Gary Rhodes set up a restaurant in Capel street a few years ago...it bombed...people just werent willing to travel there to pay big bucks for food.

Likewise, Louie's in Mountjoy Square did lovely food at reasonable prices, but were in a location of death, restaurant-wise.

washiskin

chopper6 wrote: »

Location is everything.

Gary Rhodes set up a restaurant in Capel street a few years ago...it bombed...people just werent willing to travel there to pay big bucks for food.

I went to Rhodes D7 about 6 weeks after it opened and it wasn't great. The chef he put in just wasn't what people expected and the floor staff were less than polite - there was an air of pretentiousness that just put me off going back. On the other hand a wine rep told me afterwards there was a marked difference in the place whenever Gary Rhodes himself came over, so take from that what you will.

A small village in Meath had a great bistro that did exactly what it said in the tin - quality food, generous portions and the staff were great. People from all over the county travelled to it for years. Then the owner sold the lease to the chef who promptly turned the place into a fine dining type affair & it went within 18 months. Has been lying empty for 4 years now.

Howjoe1

washiskin wrote: »

I went to Rhodes D7 about 6 weeks after it opened and it wasn't great. The chef he put in just wasn't what people expected and the floor staff were less than polite - there was an air of pretentiousness that just put me off going back. On the other hand a wine rep told me afterwards there was a marked difference in the place whenever Gary Rhodes himself came over, so take from that what you will.

A small village in Meath had a great bistro that did exactly what it said in the tin - quality food, generous portions and the staff were great. People from all over the county travelled to it for years. Then the owner sold the lease to the chef who promptly turned the place into a fine dining type affair & it went within 18 months. Has been lying empty for 4 years now.

Hudson?

Gyalist

Boulevardier wrote: »

I think that the above theories all have some truth in them, but it still does not answer one questions: How do these restaurateurs get bank or other credit for equipping these no-hope restaurants, and once they do get into trouble, why do they fold their tents so quickly?

Shouldn't a creditor who is foolish enough to back such a restaurant not try to hang in there a little more than a few weeks, perhaps do a bit of marketing, special offers etc? These places do not seem to even try.

The problem is usually lack of working capital. It's very easy to use your life savings/redundancy/bank loan on getting the perfect image and location for the place but that all counts for naught when the bills become due.

Boldberry

Gyalist wrote: »

The problem is usually lack of working capital. It's very easy to use your life savings/redundancy/bank loan on getting the perfect image and location for the place but that all counts for naught when the bills become due.

That's it, you need an incredible amount of money upfront to start a restaurant and there can be a lot of food wastage if you don't get the custom you want. A friend set up a business last year and he's close to closing it on a daily basis but through luck and sheer determination he's managed to get through without borrowing any money from the bank or his family. I don't know how he does it, I know that he actually lived in the premises for a while too.

--LOS--

It's usually because of the cost of rent. So many short-lived places in the epicurean

Muahahaha

Bandara wrote: »

Neven has never won a Michelin Star. And he won't either if he continues cooking the way he does now

chopper6 wrote: »

Oh and i meant to say his food was crap.

I'm not one to send stufff back but two members of my table sent food back to the kitchens,the portions were miniscule and it was somewhere between average and utter rubbish.

Sorry had thought he had a Michilen star, maybe I'd heard he worked for a Michilin starred chef before or something.

Is the food in his place really that bad ? Ive never been myself but intend to, I'd heard a couple of years back there is a waiting list to get a reservation so at a minimum I'm guessing it's popular ?

Birneybau

Muahahaha wrote: »

Sorry had thought he had a Michilen star, maybe I'd heard he worked for a Michilin starred chef before or something.

Is the food in his place really that bad ? Ive never been myself but intend to, I'd heard a couple of years back there is a waiting list to get a reservation so at a minimum I'm guessing it's popular ?

Would you really be @rsed going through all that trouble to be fed by Eoin McLove?

Muahahaha

Birneybau wrote: »

Would you really be @rsed going through all that trouble to be fed by Eoin McLove?

Haha that's exactly what me and a mate call him, he is like the utter re-incarnation of the Father Ted character !

I couldn't give a dam though so long as he throws up a decent meal. But you're right- he is very child like and patronising too to boot. He definitely doesn't come across as the thick skinned chef that we are more used to seeing on tv, sometimes I wonder how he has the balls for business but in fairness to the guy he's made it and made it well.

Sulla Felix

--LOS-- wrote: »

It's usually because of the cost of rent. So many short-lived places in the epicurean

And long-lived ones leaving. Burdocks have upped sticks I see. I think La Corte, the kebab place and the italian buffet are the only original tenants left.

Aard

The Epicurean Food Hall was once one of the few places in town where you could get cheap food from a variety of cuisines. Now with many cheap(ish) restaurants open around Capel Street and Parnell Street, there's more options so the Epicurean has become less relevant.

Muahahaha

Aard wrote: »

The Epicurean Food Hall was once one of the few places in town where you could get cheap food from a variety of cuisines. Now with many cheap(ish) restaurants open around Capel Street and Parnell Street, there's more options so the Epicurean has become less relevant.

I think the Eprcurean was once a special place but it's fallen behind in terms of how it is managed and run. It's badly in need of having its decor refreshed and perhaps better tables and chairs. It's dated now and unless they give it a renovation I can see it going further downhill.