Run run run run run run run....

jebuz

ThebitterLemon wrote: »

Great stuff, very impressive.

Do you think a field with greater depth (at the top end) would have helped you? (Less pressure, more people to pace off, more shelter etc)

TbL

Good question and not something I had considered. Hard to say, I felt I was pushing to my limit but with a mile to go my head threw me off course a little when I realised the target time wasn't going to be achieved. The pressure in that sense was self inflicted. I think I was in a strong group and they did drag me a lot of the way so I find it hard to see myself doing much better in a stronger field.

On the other hand, had I been pure racing and sitting in a bigger pack, maybe I would have ran quicker, who knows. But that's not something I'll dwell on, it doesn't really matter now, next race please

jebuz

Thursday 09/07 (AM) - 35 min recovery @ 7:57
Post race loosener before work, just zoned out and got it done. Legs were not in terrible nick considering.

Thursday 09/07 (PM) - 70 mins @ 6:53 min/mile
Headed down with the club for an easy run which crept into "not so easy" territory in the latter stages. I felt good though, made a call and went with the pace and finished feeling great.

Friday 10/07 - 50 mins @ 7:37 min/mile
Usual Friday loop, felt strong near the end and naturally picked up the pace.

Saturday 11/07 - Grass Session (3 x 10mins + 2 x 5 mins)
The coach had told me during the week that I'd start transitioning to the marathon sessions soon and today I suppose marked the start of it, Frankfurt is officially on! I jumped in with the group training for Berlin for a 3 x 10 and 2 x 5 min session off 2 minutes. I hadn't ran a session like this since early in the year but found it ok overall. The 10 minute reps flew by, we were nipping along around 5:30-5:40 pace and was feeling very strong finishing the last 10 minute rep. Then I almost coughed up a lung for the first 5 min effort, it felt more like a 5k race and I think we all probably peaked a bit too soon there. The next 5 minute rep was slower but I had recovered well and finished feeling good. Good introduction back to the longer grass efforts, completely different sort of pain to the shorter sessions but one I need to get used to quickly!

Splits (2 min recovery):
10 mins @ 5:40 min/mile
10 mins @ 5:36 min/mile
10 mins @ 5:41 min/mile
5 mins @ 5:25 min/mile
5 mins @ 5:31 min/mile

Sunday 12/07 (AM) - 20 miles @ 7:00 min/mile
Part 2 of the "welcome back to marathon training" weekend was the little matter of a 20 miler on Sunday morning. I was out the evening before watching the Frames in the Marquee so in my anticipatory wisdom I left the car in town so I could have a couple of pints and then collect it in the morning after the long run. This worked a charm, got up at 7:45am and ran from my house down towards the marina on what was a cracking morning. I bumped into a group of club mates after about 6 miles and knocked off another 10 with them before heading back for the car hitting 20 on the dot. That broke the run up nicely and effort was very comfortable maintaining around 7 min/miles throughout, time just flew by as it always does with company.

Sunday 12/07 (PM) - 30 mins @ 7:34 min/mile
This wasn't planned but after watching the muster hurling final on the couch I was feeling energised and decided to throw in a few more miles to get the weekly milage closer to 80. Chafing was a concern but I vaselined up and that did the trick. Legs felt surprisingly good so ticked off 4 handy miles which wrapped up the week nicely.

Weekly milage: 78.5

Narco0o0o0o

Well done on the 5K PB. You're doing some very impressive training...very inspiring. Though if I tried to match it I would literally break, so for my own safety, I may stop following your progress, haha! Fair play and best of luck for the marathon block.

One question on your approach - do you plan on doing all Sunday LSRs on tired legs after a Saturday session, or do you have plans for some long runs with decent spells at marathon pace or faster (like up to 16 mile MP)?

jebuz

Hey Sean, thanks for the kind words. You've done some great groundwork yourself recently so I hope your block goes to plan also and I see you on the line in Frankfurt.

The plan is loose but yeah I'll be doing the majority of the Sunday runs on tired legs, the approach yields good results for a lot of runners in the club and myself I suppose given that was my approach to Dublin last year. That said, I do still plan on a couple of MP runs this cycle as I can see the benefits, more-so mentally to be able to dial into the pace in the latter stages of a long run. I'll likely get at least one long MP session in so that means easy running on the Saturday and on Sunday something like 10 easy, 10 @ MP. I haven't really decided yet so I'll chat to the boss closer to the time. For the time being it's just getting back into the swing of the marthon training and that constant feeling of fatigue - love it

Narco0o0o0o

What about race day nutrition? I also agree with Barry Murray on going into long runs with depleted glycogen reserves, then not refueling during training, to stress your system to get better at burning fat as fuel. I generally try and go into all my long runs sans breakfast (and a small previous evening meal), save for maybe the hardest one which I'll use as a race simulation to test out breakfast, gels etc...

But on race day itself, I think it's essential to start with a full glycogen tank and then to try and replenish it as much as you can tolerate during the race itself. For a well-trained runner, running at close to maximum for well over 2 hours, the main factor that will slow you down on marathon race day will be glycogen loss. By refueling on the run, you are effectively increasing the overall pace you'll be able to sustain for the distance. Of course, this will mean testing out refueling options on at least one hard long training run so that you know what you'll be able to tolerate in the highly stressed environment of the race.

Another one is caffeine...probably the best legal performance enhancer, taken by almost all professional athletes. It's been conclusively shown to improve mental alertness and focus, your two best friends on race day! Plus, it also increases your pain threshold, improves neuromuscular coordination, and seems to improve the ability to use fat as fuel. And the idea that caffeine will make you dehydrated is a little bit of a misnomer. You need to seriously overdose on the stuff for that to happen - the discoloration and smell of urine after caffeine ingestion is an indirect effect, not associated with dehydration. Do yourself a favor and get some 400mg caffeine pills then drop one after half way so it's kicking in when your brain starts to rebel on you.

jebuz

Monday 13/07 - 50 mins recovery @ 7:50 min/mile
This was an absolute slog! Feeling the effects of the weekend battering. Kept it local and ground out some monotonous loops around a pitch. 50 mins was generous!

Tuesday 14/07 - Track Session: 1600m,1200m,1k,1k,800m (off 400m)
Great session tonight. I was in with an eclectic mix of a 2:35 marathon runner and a sub 2 minute 800 runner. I wasn't sure what to make of the session when I heard it first but the coach just said to try increase the pace each rep and we actually managed to pace it quite well. We decided to go out for the 1600m at 5:20ish pace and try work it down over the subsequent reps.

It was just myself and the marathon runner for the 1600m and we hit the (garmin) mile in 5:13, tough but manageable. The recovery was just a 400m jog so before I knew it we were off again. The 800m runner jumped in with us for the 1200m and it was great to have more company to keep the session honest. Hit the 1200m in 3:51, pace increased slightly, now dreading the thoughts of 2 x 1km. We kept the momentum and hit the first km in 3:13 and the 2nd in 3:12. There was a point during the first km where the lads started gaining a few meters on me. I was struggling but knew I had to immediately pull it back or the gap will grow so I focussed and caught up with them, that was the only time I drifted from them and was really happy to hold my own in the group today. Once we had finished the 2nd km, we were almost home and the 800 felt like it would be manageable. We put in a big effort to hit 2:28 for the 800 finishing strongly as a group and jesus I was in the red zone for that 2nd lap. Overall felt like a really beneficial session for the 5k. Handy cool-down and did some core work afterwards.

Splits:
1600m @ 5:13 min/mile (5:13)
1200m @ 5:10 min/mile (3:51)
1000m @ 5:02 min/mile (3:13)
1000m @ 5:06 min/mile (3:12)
800m @ 4:58 min/mile (2:28)

Wednesday 15/07 (AM) 6 miles recovery@ 7:46 @ min/mile
Morning jaunt around the city before work, felt surprisingly ok.

Wednesday 15/07 (PM) 7 miles trail run @ 7:44 @ min/mile
This didn't feel as easy as this morning but I think I underestimated the drags and surface, should have slowed it right down. I headed out to Blarney after work to try the new Castleview running trail. It's 3 euro entry and when I first heard of the place I thought "why would anyone ever pay to go running" but to be fair this place is worth it and I've changed my mind. The trail is extremely well maintained with mile and km markers and a really peaceful setting in the countryside of Blarney, nice to try something different. I really felt the effort with all the drags grass surface was draining the life out of my legs rapidly. I slogged out a few 3k laps and called it a day at 7 miles, next time I'm going way slower.

jebuz

Thursday 16/07 - 11.5 miles w/5 miles track tempo
Less said about this one the better. Miserable wet and windy night but there was still a tempo to be done. Jogged down to the track and jumped in with a couple of club mates planning on 5:40 min/mile. I know garmin readings are never reliable on a track but a decent guide, however they seemed way off tonight averaging 5:50 for the 5 miles but based on the lap times we were closer to 5:40. Pace was the least of my worries tonight anyway, effort was very forced tonight and to top it I had a stitch in my side that just wouldn't shut up. Was very close to pulling in over the last 5 mins with the pain but I clung on and was never happier to hit the 5 mile mark and quickly forget about this session. Got my jacket and legged it back up the hill for a hot dinner and a cry. One of those shyte sessions that you just tick off and move on.

Friday 17/07 - 7 miles recovery @ 7:47 min/mile
Early morning job before work, was expecting to be wrecked after the session from hell but in a nice turn of fortune, it was a smashing sunny Friday morning and I really enjoyed this one, feeling pretty fresh by the end of it.

Saturday 18/07 - Farm Session - 3 x 10 mins & 2 x 5 mins
Another good Saturday session bagged today but boy did I have to work hard for it. Same session as last week but from the start the pace was a lot spicier. I almost had a mental breakdown in the first rep panicking that I wouldn't be able to sustain this pace and I'll drop the 2 x 5 mins etc etc but as always I was just being dramatic. I settled into the session, the 2nd rep was tough but like last week I seemed to get strong again in the 3rd rep and was working well in the group. The 2 x 5 mins were very tough on sapped legs but relatively speaking after completing the 3 x 10 reps they seem manageable at the time, you're almost home so you just get the head down and run. Really starting to feel the benefits of these longer sessions already and getting stronger each week.

Splits (2 min recovery)
1. 10 mins @ 5:29 min/mile
2. 10 mins @ 5:32 min/mile
3. 10 mins @ 5:39 min/mile
4. 5 mins @ 5:27 min/mile
5. 5 mins @ 5:32 min/mile

Sunday 19/07 - 20 miles @ 6:57 min/mile
After a dodgy night of heavy rain I was fearing the worst for this one but it was an absolute belter of a morning in Cork and I have the singlet tan/burn lines to prove it. Set off with a fairly large group of club members around 8am, everyone in fine form for such an early run. We took a slightly alternative route today looping around Monkstown and taking in 2 serious hills early on with a climb of about 400 feet each, tough on such tired legs but much easier in a group. We got back to our usual route for the last 10 miles or so where paced naturally picked up. Finished very strongly and energy wise today I felt fantastic. Glad to be back in the swing of things and finding the 20 milers to manageable.

Weekly milage: 81

Really happy with where I'm at currently, feeling strong and improving week by week. The milage is bang on for the moment given the fact I'm getting in 3 quality sessions and a long run so I'll hold it here for a few more weeks before kicking into another gear for the marathon. The plan is to eventually transition the Tuesday track session into a medium long (15 mile) run while padding some more milage into the week.

jebuz

Monday 20/07 - 10 miles recovery @ 7:42 min/mile
Legs fairly knackered from our weekend exploits but not as bad as last Monday so managed to slog out 10 very easy miles. Hilly route maybe not the best idea on a recovery Monday but no harm done.

Tuesday 21/07 - Track Session: 1 mile, 1200m, 1k, 1k, 800m (10 miles)
Another great track session though I was so tired going into this I didn't expect to manage it so well. Much bigger group this week and it started with a bang. Pace was too hot for the mile and I knew some of the lads were going off way too hard. I was hitting 5 min pace myself and at the back of the stretching pack but I knew we had a long session ahead and resisted the urge to catch up. Some of the lads paid the price for that eager mile later on and I ended up finishing the session at the front of the group so there is a lesson there somewhere. Hit 5:03 for the mile and pace actually slowed slightly for the 1200m, that wasn't the plan. I struggled a little in the first km but then grew much stronger in the 2nd km and worked my way up to the top of the group as some started falling off. For the 800 I thought I had peaked too soon with the previous rep but stayed strong and was happy to see a 2:27 for that one. Legs were shattered afterwards but that's exactly the point of the session, a real lung buster but that can only mean improvement.

Splits (400m recovery)
1 mile in 5:03 @ 5:03 min/mile
1200m in @ 3:50 @ 5:08 min/mile
1000m in @ 3:12 @ 5:06 min/mile
1000m in 3:07 @ 4:58 min/mile
800m in 2:27 @ 4:54 min/mile

Wednesday 22/07 (AM) - 45 min recovery @ 7:58 min/mile
Dozy morning recovery, I think I could have been tired I can't really remember. I didn't like the hilly bits.

Wednesday 22/07 (PM) - 50 min easy @ 7:12 min/mile
Less dozy run, felt pretty good on this so picked it up at the end.

Thursday 23/07 - 10 miles with 6 @ MP
5:55am flight to Holland where I'll be until Friday week working. After a fairly reasonable day in work, got out around 7pm, back to hotel and and headed out towards the local park. I was feeling fairly wrecked but still felt like some sort of session so I decided to see how my planned marathon pace feels currently. After 2 miles warmup I worked down to 6 min pace for the next 6 miles. I was trying to control the effort based on HR and keeping it around 160 which I managed to do pretty well. Though it wasn't exactly lung busting, it didn't feel as comfortable as I would have hoped. That said, I still have 100 days to Frankfurt, legs are pretty tired at the moment and I was awake since 4:30am, also I just like a good whine. This was a session of blood, sweat and tears, literally. During the MP miles, I got a nose bleed and got blood all over my white top, then when I was cooling down, there was a BBQ on the grass and the smoke got in my eyes which made me cry and finally the sweat is a given. I was a mess. Headed back to hotel, cleaned up and went to the fair (Europes biggest fun fair I believe) which made everything better.

Mile Splits: 6:13, 6:05, 5:58, 5:57, 5:56

Friday 24/07 - 45 min recovery @ 8:14
Up early for a nice relaxing recovery along the canal in Tilburg. Pace was pedestrian for first mile or so as I was so tired but the life gradually seeped back into the bones (and muscles) and I finished feeling pretty good.

jebuz

Saturday 25/07 - Not farm session: 3 x 10 mins & 2 x 5 mins (12 miles)
A cloudy but calm morning in Holland but I had to head into work for a few hours so no usual Saturday morning session for me. Got out around lunchtime, a quick call to the coach back home and my penance was delivered - the usual 3 x 10 mins & 2 x 5 mins. Lucky for me, the weather had turned dramatically and on the drive back to base I observed a fairly angry wind wreaking havoc along with a fairly heavy rainfall...BALLS. I delayed the inevitable for a while back in the hotel but finally bit the bullet and headed out into the misery. On the warmup I was really not in a happy place, wind was ridiculous and the rain pelting me in the face. The thoughts of doing this session solo was not filling me with joy. There was some talk of just doing an easy run but I quickly banished those evil thoughts and before I knew it my 2 mile warmup was done and I kicked into the first 10 minutes.

I figured with the conditions that pace was going to be largely irrelevant today and focus was on effort, that was my excuse anyway and I got it in early. I actually felt good once I got going into the first 10 minutes and it seemed to go by quite quickly. I was running alongside a canal heading out of the city into the countryside but still close to a main road which was annoying and concerning that my path would end soon. During the recovery, through the trees I spotted an ideal uninterrupted back road but I had to negotiate my way down a small gully and briars where I cut my knee. I didn't clean the blood because it looked cool in the rain which was now hammering down. I recovered and kicked into the second 10 minute rep, my top now stuck to me and I started questioning my life choices. But kept going what felt like the right effort and this ended up being the quickest of the 10 min reps at 5:33 min/mile avg. I realised why when I turned around to run the route in reverse, thar she blows! After another 2 minute recovery, I was off again the wind right in my face for this one and really started struggling. I persevered and because time generally moves forward, the 10 minutes elapsed and I was eventually allowed stop. I was glad to be finished with the 10's, the 5's felt do-able now. Well that was short lived, the first 5 mins was horrible, was puffing in the red zone but felt like I was moving backwards with the wind. For the last 5 mins I was almost home so put in a big effort, a couple of gusts tried to take me out completely but then suddenly like a switch, the wind dropped for the last 2 mins and I put in a big effort and finishing strong. I knelt down to tie my lace, the rain still hammering down and I looked up with a slightly psycho but satisfactory grin on my face, one that represented completing a very difficult session I know will stand to me. I really took for granted doing these sessions in a group back home, it really helps having a group to pace with. I barely noticed the rain on the 2 mile cooldown, was so relieved to have that session in the bag. Home, warm shower, steak. Done.

10 mins @ 5:37 min/mile
10 mins @ 5:33 min/mile
10 mins @ 5:44 min/mile (ugh)
5 mins @ 5:45 min/mile (ugh)
5 mins @ 5:28 min/mile

Sunday 26/07 (AM) - 20 miles @ 6:59 min/mile
Sunday 26/07 (PM) - 35 mins @ 7:44 min/mile
Delighted to see much improved conditions today for the long one, clear blue sky and sunshine..get in there. Quick cuppa coffee and headed out around 9am. When I got going though I did notice a fair wind but it was manageable, nothing like yesterday. Did a couple of loops of the local park first and then headed out to the countryside on the same route as yesterday. I have to say I loved out there in the rolling Dutch countryside. The sun was beaming down and I was cruising along a small back road alongside the tall corn fields waving to the odd runner, and the legs felt great. I turned around 12 miles and I pulled back the pace as I was now hitting a headwind. Started feeling parched with around 5 miles to go and I was dribbling thinking about that cup of orange juice I swiped from the buffer earlier on and put in my mini bar. Eventually made it back bang on 20 miles and overall felt strong today bar the last couple of miles where I started getting pretty dehydrated. Inhaled my orange juice, cleaned up and took a train to Eindhoven where I visited the DAF truck museum and ate a pizza. Got back in the evening for a second serving of 35 easy minutes. I'm taking an easy week next week so wanted to throw in an extra run on top of the long run today. Felt alright for this in terms of the legs but the pizza wasn't sitting too well. Got it done and that's a pretty good week I think. I might sleep now.

Weekly milage: 85

jebuz

Monday 27/07 - 45 mins @ 8 min/mile
Handy recovery run on a very blustery evening, took it very easy and finished feeling it pretty refreshed. The stupid fun fair was finally finished so city getting back to normal at last (grinch).

Tuesday 28/07 - 60 mins @ 7:29 min/mile (with 5 x 100m strides)
And so begins the easy week, much needed in hindsight and was actually really nice to just head off with no real plan. Work is going ok over here so getting home at reasonable hours and stress levels ok. Ventured out into the wilderness of the countryside and really enjoyed this one. Effort felt super easy and the HR was very low (123 avg) which either means I am in pretty good shape or the HRM is fúcked. I like the sound of the former.

Wednesday 29/07 - 45 mins @ 7:23 min/mile
Feeling more and more refreshed each day and quickly realising how tired I must have been, this week was much needed. HR was again ridiculously low (120 avg) and I am getting very suspicious but again the effort felt so easy and being in Holland there wasn't a drag in sight so maybe slightly misleading...either way it's positive.

Thursday 30/07 - 45 mins @ 6:55 min/mile
Almost done in Holland, flying in the morning, got up to Amsterdam airport after 9pm and was staying in a hotel nearby so (not surprisingly to my colleagues) I headed out for a brisk 45 mins. Felt incredibly good tonight and amazingly in the 6 miles or so heading on an out and back route, I never actually left the airport (I heart my airport runs). The HR was again taking the piss tonight, 123 avg for this pace is not what I would expect at all, this would be normally around 130-135 and there's no way I've made such a jump aerobically in such a short time. Anyway, effort was really comfortable and that's the important thing and overall really enjoyed it. Got back to hotel and headed down to bar to meet my workmates around 10pm for 1 cold pint. The pint was so refreshing that I ended up drinking 5 of them which I duly paid for the next day. I actually was the first to go to bed while the rest stayed up and I was still in the worst shape the next morning.

Friday 31/07 - 55 mins @ 7:26 min/mile
Up at 7am and was feeling very dodgy before the flight home. The flight was awful, I couldn't sleep properly I was just doing that thing where your head drops and then you jump every few minutes and then slump to the side as your head drops again and the cycle repeats. Got back to Cork and was tempting a few miles to clear the head but I decided not to and just headed into work for a few hours. Headed out for a run at around 4pm and was in much better condition. Felt pretty terrible for most of this and the HR was spiking all over the shop, it's definitely dodgy. Felt a bit better near the end and that's the end of my easy week (well 5 days) which was thoroughly enjoyable and really nice to just go out and run every day with no expectations or pressure.

Saturday 01/08 - Farm Session: 3 x 10 mins (10.5 miles)
After last Saturdays horror show I was happy to be back at the UCC farm today with the usual suspects. Was feeling extremely sluggish during the warmup which was maybe due to the lack of caffeine this morning. My house was actually void of any caffeine for the first time in...ever! I nearly had a meltdown. Sure I could have grabbed a cup from a garage on the way but we all know the purpose of coffee before a session is to...eh lighten the load, and it was just too late for that. Anyhoooo, the session went pretty well, just 3 x 10 mins today which is still a tough session but without the extra 2 x 5 mins like the last few weeks it just sounds easier. Was in with a good group of lads and we kept the reps pretty steady, effort was controlled and finished strong.

Splits (2 min recovery):
1. 10 mins @ 5:35 min/mile
2. 10 mins @ 5:35 min/mile
3. 10 mins @ 5:31 min/mile

TRR_the_turd

Hey, I'm sure it's back a couple of pages but what's the marathon you are targeting this Autumn? Any other races on the horizon?

jebuz

Hey Turd, Frankfurt in October. Before I really hit the important weeks, any words of advice from a 'been there done that' 2:34 runner? What sessions do you think stood to you the most? And what colour shorts should I wear?

Thinking of racing a 5k this coming week to try capitalise on the recent track work, after that it's head down and Charleville 1/2 in September followed by maybe an XC sharpener a couple of weeks before the big day.

TRR_the_turd

jebuz wrote: »

Hey Turd, Frankfurt in October. Before I really hit the important weeks, any words of advice from a 'been there done that' 2:35 runner? What sessions do you think stood to you the most? And what colour shorts should I wear?

Don't think I could pass along any advice really. Your training looks great to me, whoever is setting it for you seems to have a good rounded view of the different attributes needed for marathon. Those 3-4 * 10 minute intervals are great in my eyes. You got a load of them under your belt also. My best indicator of a good marathon would be 4 * 2 miles at close to half marathon pace. You have been more or less doing this regularly so that's a good indicator. And regards the shorts, go with a high cut to give the ladies something to look at but go with a dark colour like navy or black (or maybe brown) in case you have a wet bottom burp

By the way I'm a 2.34 marathon runner

jebuz

TRR_the_turd wrote: »

Don't think I could pass along any advice really. Your training looks great to me, whoever is setting it for you seems to have a good rounded view of the different attributes needed for marathon. Those 3-4 * 10 minute intervals are great in my eyes. You got a load of them under your belt also. My best indicator of a good marathon would be 4 * 2 miles at close to half marathon pace. You have been more or less doing this regularly so that's a good indicator. And regards the shorts, go with a high cut to give the ladies something to look at but go with a dark colour like navy or black (or maybe brown) in case you have a wet bottom burp

By the way I'm a 2.34 marathon runner

Yeah thats what I said 2:34...wait dam you quoted me the edit won't work. Sage advice on the shorts, 5 pairs of chocolate brown high cuts ordered..watch out ladies :pac:

What sort of half marathon time did you run prior to your 2:34? I'm guessing 72/73 would be a good indicator? I'm not saying 2:35 is what I'm aiming for right now, sub 2:40 is the primary goal but closer to the time I'd like to know what sort of shape I'm in and if I'm capable of a 2:35 I'd certainly go for it. Also while I have you here (I'm milking this) what sort of long run pace did you do and did you do many MP long runs? I'm planning on a least one weekend where I skip the Saturday session and run 8-10 miles of the long run at planned MP.

TRR_the_turd

jebuz wrote: »

What sort of half marathon time did you run prior to your 2:34? I'm guessing 72/73 would be a good indicator? I'm not saying 2:35 is what I'm aiming for right now, sub 2:40 is the primary goal but closer to the time I'd like to know what sort of shape I'm in and if I'm capable of a 2:35 I'd certainly go for it.

I ran 74.20ish in Bohermeen 6-7 weeks out but that was a bad run in hindsight. The year before I ran 73.20 and then ran 2.35. Personally I'd need to be running 75 to have any chance of going under 2.40 but that's person specific. For example, I think krusty ran 2.38 off a 76 for example. I also know of a couple of guys who've ran 71s and still haven't gone sub 2.40.

jebuz wrote: »

what sort of long run pace did you do and did you do many MP long runs? I'm planning on a least one weekend where I skip the Saturday session and run 8-10 miles of the long run at planned MP.

To be honest I usually keep my MP and long runs separate. But again that's specific to me. I'm a little brittle with the longer stuff so to reduce risk of injury I'd do 8-10 at MP mid week and then a 20 miler the weekend ~7 minute mile pace. However, for London this year I changed tact slightly and did 2 long runs where MP stuff was included. The most significant being Easter weekend where I ran 22 miles with miles 10-20 at MP. I jumped into a 10 mile race for this. I'd find it very hard to do this alone so need a race or a group to do it with.

I'm hoping to run Charleville myself this September so I'll see you on the start line in our matching brown shorts

jebuz

** double post ***

jebuz

Thanks man thats some great stuff there to think about. Yep I agree it's completely individual but I find it very interesting to see the variety of half times, just shows it's really no more than a rough indication. I would hope to be running low 74 or even better 73:xx come Charleville. I think if I can, keeping you in sight might be a good strategy

Anyway back to the running (or lack thereof)

Following Saturdays session I had pain in both, yes both achilles - balls. I've been taking it very cautiously since and it's definitely in better shape today. Not sure what triggered this, especially following a week of easy running, possibly change of footwear to an older pair on Friday evening on an easy jog (identical shoes but kinda worn).

Sunday 02/08 - Rest
Easy decision here taking a day off, the pain was familiar so not risking anything. The plan was only 10 miles as I was hoping to race a 5k Wednesday which was now unlikely. To feed the demons I headed off on a 22 mile cycle to Monkstown which was actually quite enjoyable if a little stormy and of course I ended up racing the lycra clad middle aged men to keep it interesting.

Monday 03/08 - 5 miles @ 7:39 min/mile
Headed out mid morning and hoping all would be well in the world again but I still felt a slight pain in the left achilles. It eased as the run went on but far from 100% and any ideas about a 10 miler were quickly quashed. Called it a day at 40 mins and slightly concerned.

Tuesday 04/08 - 5 miles @ 7:42 min/mile
Still felt a niggle while walking around in work but nothing alarmingly painful. Headed out after work for a few easy miles with the only focus being a light effort to aid recovery and get it back to normal. I have always found when the achilles is not extremely painful (and you've got to be honest), light jogging can actually help the recovery, possibly getting more blood to the area and stimulating the...interstellar...fascia...pylon....I dunno I'm not a bleedin physiologist. Either way it was feeling good at the end of the run and legs felt pretty great but still I'm not considering a session until it's 100%. 5k most definitely ruled out tomorrow.

jebuz

Forced into another easy week but I'm fine with that, the most important thing for me is avoiding any potential layoff so if that means skipping a couple of sessions that's fine by me, bigger picture and all that.

Wednesday 05/08 - 60 mins @ 7:27 min/mile
This was the run where I knew I was pretty much back to normal. Took the hilly route into the city and had to pull back the pace at times, felt really fresh so again the easy running has probably done me no harm at all especially before the heavy milage begins.

Thursday 06/08 - 10 miles @ 7:15 min/mile
I probably would have done a light tempo tonight only for my coach to tell me to feck off and do an easy run. Fair enough I suppose, no point risking a session for little gain. Headed out the straight road to Ballincollig and back, felt slightly tired early on but during the last couple of miles I worked it up to 6:30 pace and felt really comfortable.

Friday 07/08 - 60 mins @ 7:51 min/mile
Met up with a work/club-mate at 7am on a stunning morning in the city. Handy 60 min jog, legs feeling pretty fresh and seem to be completely recovered now. Session tomorrow? I think so!

TRR_the_turd

jebuz wrote: »

Forced into another easy week but I'm fine with that, the most important thing for me is avoiding any potential layoff so if that means skipping a couple of sessions that's fine by me, bigger picture and all that.

I skipped all my sessions this week as my legs are aching after the half. The guilt is unbelievable. I had to stop myself yesterday from doing a session. I know for a fact that a hard session yesterday would have been seriously risky yet heading out the door I was still 50/50. Glad to see you have some sense. Nothing wrong with easy running until you're all systems go again*

*I'm fecking great at dishing out advice. Not so good at heeding it

jebuz

Saturday 08/08 - Grass Session: 3 x 10 min & 2 x 5 mins (12+ miles)
Grand morning for this and was I feeling pretty fresh with all the easy running. Session went very well, no problems with the achilles and I was most pleased with how manageable the 10 min efforts felt, breathing was always controlled and form felt good. Unlike some other weeks, I was well able to pick up the effort for the 5 min reps and that was probably expected with the lack of sessions this week.

Splits (2 min recovery)
1. 10 mins @ 5:36 min/mile
2. 10 mins @ 5:35 min/mile
3. 10 mins @ 5:37 min/mile
4. 5 mins @ 5:27 min/mile
5. 5 mins @ 5:23 min/mile

Sunday 09/08 - 20 miles @ 6:54 min/mile
Another very encouraging long run. Home in strawberryville for the weekend so this was a solo run which ended up flying by actually. Having been out for dinner and a couple of drinks the night before I was very glad not to have overdone it, I still can't imagine trying to do one of these hungover. Headed off around 9am on a simple out and back route on the main Wexford road, had its fair share of hills and there was a bit of a wind but the energy levels were really good today right until the finish. My sister (the injured runner) was out for a cycle and she caught with 3 miles to go and paced me the rest of the way home so pace naturally picked up but I felt pretty great and finished feeling strong. She passed me just outside the (former) mental hospital and took this photo which to be fair depicts me as an escaped mentalist, that is one seriously bandy run but surely it was just bad timing :rolleyes:

jebuz

Monday 10/08 (AM) - 45 mins @ 7:45 min/mile
Recovery jog around Enniscorthy before heading up to the big smoke for a few days - week off work!

Monday 10/08 (PM) - 45 mins @ 7:32 min/mile
Staying in my sisters in Chapelizod so bolted straight for the phoenix park for an enjoyable evening jog. Great to be back in the park, love it there.

Tuesday 11/08 - 15 miles @ 6:46 min/mile
Planned on doing the Raheny 2 mile summer race as part of the long run but was out in Skerries for the day visiting family and got stuck in traffic on the way back. Probably not such a bad thing as I got a decent long run in instead. Felt really good for this and time flew by, got to run bits of routes I used to run regularly when training on my own up here, really enjoyable.

Wednesday 12/08 (AM) - 45 mins @ 7:54 min/mile
Very handy recovery jog through the memorial gardens and around Heuston on a cracking morning. Picked a great week to take off work!

Wednesday 12/08 (PM) - 40 mins @ 7:44 min/mile
Evening run through the park. Felt the effort on this one with the evening heat and trails sapping the life out of me.

Thursday 13/08 - 10 miles with 30 mins track tempo @ 5:40
After a very muggy and sweaty drive back to Cork I jogged down to the track and sweating buckets only after the warmup. Jumped in with the 5:40 group and ticked off steady 85 sec laps for 30 min and though it was hot, effort felt just about right though garmin pace was way off. The only accurate way of knowing your real pace on the track during a tempo is timing the laps and we had our coach calling them out which was really handy. Talked to the coach tonight and we agreed to run Clonmel half on Sunday at marathon effort.

Friday 14/08 - 50 mins @ 7:33 min/mile
As always a very enjoyable Friday morning jog on my usual route. Legs felt really fresh today so pace was slightly quicker than usual.

Saturday 15/08 - 54 mins @ 8:02 min/mile
With the plan to run the half tomorrow I just ran easy around the pitches today. Was breaking in some new runners and started getting a blister after about 5 miles so cut the run short. Was originally planning on 10 miles but the focus was on the effort tomorrow so took no chances and headed home.

Sunday 16/08 - 20 miles with Clonmel half marathon in 78:15
So a load of clubmates were heading up to this as one of them was planning to run dressed as spiderman and trying to break the world record, which he duly did...and that was part of his stag weekend. Coach told me to run steady 6 min pace as a marathon effort and this sounded like a good tester for me to see what sort of aerobic shape I'm in. The target of 78 mins today wasn't going to be a problem, the only outcome I wanted was to be finishing feeling like I could keep going and I honestly think I achieved that, it went very well.

We got up nice and early leaving Cork at 8am for the drive to Clonmel. Race was starting at 11am so we picked up the numbers and then since I was planning on 20 mile today I headed off to get 5 miles ticked off @ 7:2x pace, feeling nice and relaxed. Got back to the start with minutes to spare and before we knew it I was off again. I settled in with a group of lads all running 6 min pace and the effort felt completely manageable and relaxed. The course was quite undulating with a tricky climb at the start but kept the pace steady throughout.

I was really enjoying the run but waiting for it to start feeling hard, it just never came thankfully. I was moving very well at a steady 6 min pace, breathing relaxed and just ticking off the miles. I broke away from my group at mile 9, well rather it was the lads I was with faded a little. I was on my own for the rest of the race and still feeling good up until around mile 11 when I was faced with a bit of a climb, I felt the effort increase naturally but then it levelled again and I brought it home feeling very strong. I passed a few stragglers over the last couple of miles and I gently whispered in their ears "I'm only using this as a training run". That actually didn't happen but wouldn't it be funny. I was tempted to put in an effort at the end but that wasn't in the plan so just kept the same pace and finished in 78:15 pretty happy with the effort. I feel I could have made it to 20 miles no problem which is very encouraging at this stage of the training. HR reading was spot on for marathon effort with a 156 bpm average. For Dublin last year the avg was 160 bpm so these are all good signs. Couple of miles cooldown to bring it up to 20 for the day and that's a great weeks training I reckon, very happy with how I'm going at the moment.

MP Splits:
1 6:01
2 6:10
3 6:04
4 5:54
5 6:05
6 5:49
7 5:57
8 5:57
9 5:56
10 5:54
11 5:58
12 5:54
13 5:52

Weekly milage: 82

jebuz

Monday 17/08 (AM) 45 mins @ 7:46 min/mile
Handy recovery jog before work, legs in pretty good shape after the half.

Monday 17/08 (PM) 45 mins @ 7:09 min/mile
Same boring route as this morning but felt a lot more energetic and less sleepy.

Tuesday 18/08 - 15 miles @ 6:50 min/mile
Pretty good long run today, felt strong and fresh throughout...well except for the last 2 uphill miles. Was hitting 6:40-45 pace for most of the run and felt really good, HR average of 134 which is spot on where I want it to be.

Wednesday 19/08 (AM) - 45 mins @ 7:51 min/mile
What can I say about this one? Well not much really. Can I even remember it? Not really to be honest. It's almost robotic now, I just get up and put on my gear and run, it's like clockwork I don't even have to think. Christ...

Wednesday 19/08 (PM) - 45 mins @ 7:17 min/mile
Was in town looking at a house so I just headed off for a nice run through the city straight after. As always feeling much more livelier for the evening run and the legs and lungs are really feeling good this week. This got me thinking and it's time to get philosophical now. You've got to stand back sometimes and appreciate the periods when all the different parts are just working together so well in unison (my body parts, I'm talking about running). You know? You don't really appreciate it until you're on the sidelines for whatever reason. I think what I'm saying is, I should really do a race soon.

jebuz

Thursday 20/08 - 11.5 miles with 30 min track tempo
Good solid tempo on the track tonight. In with a good group of 4/5 lads, kept the pace nice and steady taking 5 minutes at the front each. Effort was hard but controlled and just ticked off the laps keeping them around 85 sec. Garmin paces probably dodgy but I'll throw them up.
Splits
Mile 1 @ 5:39 m/m
Mile 2 @ 5:32 m/m
Mile 3 @ 5:33 m/m
Mile 4 @ 5:40 m/m
Mile 5 @ 5:38 m/m
0.4 mile @ 5:32 m/m

Friday 21/08 - 55 min recovery @ 7:47 m/m
Very tired for the first couple of miles but the body eventually woke up and finished feeling pretty good.

Outside

Hey jebuz,

I see you take note of your HR regularly and I'm trying to do the same for my training. It's great for motivation when you can see the pace increasing for the same HR as the weeks tick by. I'm currently in the middle of a JD plan for Dublin. I'm wondering how you decide on your marathon pace HR or was this by trial and error?
JD is recommending between 80-90% of max HR which for me is roughly 165 - 184 BPM so currently I'm training in low 170's and it feels OK. Threshold running seems to work out about 10 BPM higher than this but can be fairly tricky to get to and maintain, just wondering does this seem reasonable? I couldn't imagine running at 90% of max HR for the marathon?

Thanks,

Outside

Myles Splitz

Outside wrote: »

Hey jebuz,

I see you take note of your HR regularly and I'm trying to do the same for my training. It's great for motivation when you can see the pace increasing for the same HR as the weeks tick by. I'm currently in the middle of a JD plan for Dublin. I'm wondering how you decide on your marathon pace HR or was this by trial and error?
JD is recommending between 80-90% of max HR which for me is roughly 165 - 184 BPM so currently I'm training in low 170's and it feels OK. Threshold running seems to work out about 10 BPM higher than this but can be fairly tricky to get to and maintain, just wondering does this seem reasonable? I couldn't imagine running at 90% of max HR for the marathon?

Thanks,

Outside

Hope you don't mind me butting in. I know the Daniels book recommends that but he has actually further elaborated on this point by saying that this figure varies depending on the athlete and a well trained elite marathoner would be in the 87-89% range while more novice runners (i.e first few years of running or coming from a lower mileage base) are not able to sustain this effort and figures should be closer to 80-82% of HRmax meaning that Threshold would be closer to the top end of Marathon effort rather than above it (about 88-89% of HRmax).

Just also something to point out is that HR is one factor in terms of effort, you need to factor in muscle efficiency (mithochondrial uptake) so while 2 peoples HR may be the same, the efficiency of the muscles can vary based on athletic background which is why base training and low intensity running is so important.

Narco0o0o0o

Outside wrote: »

Hey jebuz,

I see you take note of your HR regularly and I'm trying to do the same for my training. It's great for motivation when you can see the pace increasing for the same HR as the weeks tick by. I'm currently in the middle of a JD plan for Dublin. I'm wondering how you decide on your marathon pace HR or was this by trial and error?
JD is recommending between 80-90% of max HR which for me is roughly 165 - 184 BPM so currently I'm training in low 170's and it feels OK. Threshold running seems to work out about 10 BPM higher than this but can be fairly tricky to get to and maintain, just wondering does this seem reasonable? I couldn't imagine running at 90% of max HR for the marathon?

Thanks,

Outside

Ditto on the butting in! Another thing I've found with HR is that for long runs, there's a considerable amount of HR drift, in that HR will increase over the duration of the long run to levels that just don't match the intensity you're running at. For instance, my HR will sometimes get to tempo levels during fast finish long runs, while my gut feeling of the intensity during this time (breathing, exertion, fatigue etc..) is marathon effort at best. A bit of googling discovered that this is a well-known phenomenon.

Cardiovascular drift results in an increased heart rate without a corresponding rise in effort, breathing rate, or calories burned. In the example of a long run, it is mostly caused by the natural increase in core body temperature, without increased breathing rate or effort. This increase in core body temperature elevates heart rate the same way running in hot conditions does. Correspondingly, the stroke volume of the heart decreases so that cardiac output and oxygen uptake remain the same, keeping your breathing and effort similar while heart rate rises. Thus, because stoke volume decreases as bpm elevates, your heart is actually working at the same intensity towards the end of a long run as in the early stages, despite the fact that the bpm is higher. Check it out - running.competitor.com/2014/05/training/the-effect-of-cardiac-drift-on-heart-rate-training_48317

I find HR great for keeping your effort/pace low on easy days and for the first half of a long progression run before you start heating up (maybe the first 10 miles). As a measure of effort after 10-15 or so miles, I don't think it's super accurate and you are better off going by feel rather that HR in the marathon race itself.

Outside

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Hope you don't mind me butting in. I know the Daniels book recommends that but he has actually further elaborated on this point by saying that this figure varies depending on the athlete and a well trained elite marathoner would be in the 87-89% range while more novice runners (i.e first few years of running or coming from a lower mileage base) are not able to sustain this effort and figures should be closer to 80-82% of HRmax meaning that Threshold would be closer to the top end of Marathon effort rather than above it (about 88-89% of HRmax).

Just also something to point out is that HR is one factor in terms of effort, you need to factor in muscle efficiency (mithochondrial uptake) so while 2 peoples HR may be the same, the efficiency of the muscles can vary based on athletic background which is why base training and low intensity running is so important.

Thanks Myles, ya that makes sense. I suppose I'm kind of hoping that it's possible to work out an exact HR you can sustain for the marathon to get the best possible time but I guess if it was that easy you'd have no one blowing up/hitting the wall etc. If only!

And ya, HR comparisons between individuals are pretty rubbish, I'll use HR and pace as more of a baseline and if I start failing any planned sessions at these paces, I might want to wind down pace a little.

Outside

Narco0o0o0o wrote: »

Ditto on the butting in! Another thing I've found with HR is that for long runs, there's a considerable amount of HR drift, in that HR will increase over the duration of the long run to levels that just don't match the intensity you're running at. For instance, my HR will sometimes get to tempo levels during fast finish long runs, while my gut feeling of the intensity during this time (breathing, exertion, fatigue etc..) is marathon effort at best. A bit of googling discovered that this is a well-known phenomenon.

Cardiovascular drift results in an increased heart rate without a corresponding rise in effort, breathing rate, or calories burned. In the example of a long run, it is mostly caused by the natural increase in core body temperature, without increased breathing rate or effort. This increase in core body temperature elevates heart rate the same way running in hot conditions does. Correspondingly, the stroke volume of the heart decreases so that cardiac output and oxygen uptake remain the same, keeping your breathing and effort similar while heart rate rises. Thus, because stoke volume decreases as bpm elevates, your heart is actually working at the same intensity towards the end of a long run as in the early stages, despite the fact that the bpm is higher. Check it out - running.competitor.com/2014/05/training/the-effect-of-cardiac-drift-on-heart-rate-training_48317

I find HR great for keeping your effort/pace low on easy days and for the first half of a long progression run before you start heating up (maybe the first 10 miles). As a measure of effort after 10-15 or so miles, I don't think it's super accurate and you are better off going by feel rather that HR in the marathon race itself.

Thanks Narco, ya thats pretty much why I'm asking the question in the first place! I did this the other day: https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/867218388
And its the perfect example of a serious drift in HR for not a very corresponding increase in pace or effort. Saying that I was struggling towards the end of this but didn't expect HR to go that high. Then it got me thinking if I can run at this HR towards the end of one of these runs then maybe I'm running M pace run's too slow. But that cardiac drift explains it nicely, I'd heard about it but never fully understood it, now I do, cheers.

jebuz

Outside wrote: »

Hey jebuz,

I see you take note of your HR regularly and I'm trying to do the same for my training. It's great for motivation when you can see the pace increasing for the same HR as the weeks tick by. I'm currently in the middle of a JD plan for Dublin. I'm wondering how you decide on your marathon pace HR or was this by trial and error?
JD is recommending between 80-90% of max HR which for me is roughly 165 - 184 BPM so currently I'm training in low 170's and it feels OK. Threshold running seems to work out about 10 BPM higher than this but can be fairly tricky to get to and maintain, just wondering does this seem reasonable? I couldn't imagine running at 90% of max HR for the marathon?

Thanks,

Outside

Hey lads, butt away

Hi Outside, I see HR was simple a good feedback parameter for training and that's all, I wouldn't even consider pacing a race based on HR feedback because as Narcooo pointed out, there's the cardiac drift element so for me it's all about listening to your internal feedback and pace it on effort.

I didn't actual decide on the marathon HR of 160, it's simply based on my last marathon effort and assuming it's not going to be far off for the next one as my max HR will likely not have shifted. The purpose of monitoring the HR last week was to get a good idea if that pace is a realistic target for Frankfurt and I was pleasantly surprised to see it looks about right. I would fully expect it to start drifting however around 20 miles so when you factor that in the overall average should be about 160.

Also a great point by ecoli Myles on the other variables such as muscle efficiency and oxygen uptake which collectively determine your overall performance meaning HR should never be viewed in isolation when comparing 1 or more individuals.

I don't pay much attention to the recommended % ranges or zones, over time I've figured out based on trial and error what my own ideal HR zones are based on feel, e.g recovery for me is always 118-124 bpm, that feels right and I generally feel fresh for the next session but you know that might be completely different for somebody with the same max/resting HR as me.

I agree with you though, it's very nice to see the your pace gradually increasing as HR remains the same, a tangible sign of improvement so in that sense it's a very useful parameter to monitor and can even serve as a mental motivator to know your training is working. I find also taking the resting HR daily can be useful for detecting early signs of overtraining or illness (even 5 beats above your typical resting HR can be a warning sign).

jebuz

Saturday 22/08 - Grass Session: 3 x 10 mins (12 miles)
Tough session at the UCC farm today but it really felt like a quality workout. In with quite a large group and the pace on the first rep was hot from the start. I was at the back of the group and looked at the watch reading 5:2x pace so I knew to stay put knowing I'd be doing very well to keep all 3 reps under 5:30 pace. Found the first one very tough but eased into the session and it became more manageable as it progressed. On the third rep the group had dwindled but I was right in the mix and this ended up being the quickest despite the fact I was working really hard for the last few mins. Great to see these sessions (one of the key sessions of the week for me) getting quicker over the last few weeks and once again the benefits of working with the group can't be underestimated.

Splits (2 min recovery)
1. 10 mins @ 5:28 m/m
2. 10 mins @ 5:26 m/m
3. 10 mins @ 5:25 m/m

Sunday 23/08 - 20 miles @ 7:08 min/mile
One last job for the week and that was the little matter of a 20 miler this morning. This went very well, legs felt good, energy-wise was really strong and time seemed to just fly by as well chatted away for the 2 hours or so. I got down to the marina a little late and the group was already gone so I spent the first few miles catching up. I got to them around 3 miles in and was glad to pull the pace back a little as I was feeling tired already. Just myself and a club mate who's also targeting Frankfurt for the last 5 miles so we injected a little pace and felt really strong finishing. HR of 127 bpm for today is really encouraging to see for that effort and that wraps up a pretty good week for me.

Weekly milage: 90

Milage of 90 is exactly where I want to be right now, things are going just fine so I'll keep it in and around there for the next few weeks as Charleville draws closer.