Building after the British left

Jellybaby1 · 25-04-2014 8:37pm #1

I don't know if this should be in the Architecture forum. I was born in the fifties and I remember Dublin being very run-down then. I was wondering, after the British left, what were the first buildings ever constructed by our fledgling Irish government? And when building did begin how was it funded, did they use British money left in the kitty? Hope you get my meaning and sorry this is not as academically explained as it should be.

dubhthach · 25-04-2014 9:05pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I don't know if this should be in the Architecture forum. I was born in the fifties and I remember Dublin being very run-down then. I was wondering, after the British left, what were the first buildings ever constructed by our fledgling Irish government? And when building did begin how was it funded, did they use British money left in the kitty? Hope you get my meaning and sorry this is not as academically explained as it should be.

Well prime example of a "mega project" by new Free State Government was Ardnacrusha power station, obviously before this there was alot of rebuilding required for infrastructure given rail bridges destroyed during the civil war.

There was no money left in the kitty. The state if anything owed the British money under the terms of the treaty eg. share of Imperial debt -- unstated amount (abrogated in 1926 I believe) + the annual annuity for the farmers (land act schemes etc.)

Ardnacrusha cost over £5million pounds at the time, the entire state budget for 1925 was £25m !

Jellybaby1 · 25-04-2014 9:45pm

Thanks dubhthach. That's certainly a mega construction all right and very industrial/functional but I suppose what I'm really getting at in my ham-fisted way is Irish design, when I look at buildings in Dublin, they are British in style, Victorian, Georgian etc., and you can see the same style in Belfast and all over Britain, and they're to my mind just gorgeous. I wanted to know what houses/buildings are built in the 'Irish style' after Independence. Is there anything we can say that about? All I can think of at the moment is the ESB building on Fitzwilliam Street. But there must be earlier examples of Irish architectural design.

Judgement Day · 25-04-2014 10:07pm

A distinctive Irish (?) design to be seen in many towns is that of "Technical School Art Deco" - the one in Enniscorthy (below) survives in use as the local library. Not an attractive style in my opinion but unusual

Jellybaby1 · 25-04-2014 10:19pm

No that's not at all attractive. I guess I just have to rely on the old stone cottages and longhouses for something remotely pretty then.

Judgement Day · 25-04-2014 10:24pm

And here's a useless abomination built by the State shortly after the Republic was declared.

http://www.irisharchitectureawards.ie/gold-medal/winner/busaras

doolox · 25-04-2014 10:27pm

This was built in 1940 at Collinstown in North Dublin. The Air Transport system in Ireland used Baldonnel until the new airport was built at Collinstown.

Also I recall that the Hospitals in the likes of Galway, Blanchardstown etc were built by Noel Browne as Minister for Health in 1948 on ideas got from Finland.

There was also some stuff I read that noted that Ballyfermot was the largest public housing project when it was built in the late 40's/early 50's.

Judgement Day · 25-04-2014 10:28pm

Dublin Airport opened in 1940 - not wildly attractive but fit for purpose unlike Bus Aras which was a triumph of design over functionality.

resized_Old_Terminal.sflb.ashx

Judgement Day · 25-04-2014 10:48pm

The Sligo Great Southern Hotel was built after independence but I'm not sure if it was by the State owned (via CIE) GSH Company or by the private Great Southern Railways Company. Impressive in size for a small town like Sligo but not particularly notable otherwise. I had the misfortune to stay one night in it back in the late 1970's - it's part of the Best Western Hotel Group now and has probably greatly improved.

Victor · 25-04-2014 11:07pm

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 12:21am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Dublin Airport opened in 1940 - not wildly attractive but fit for purpose unlike Bus Aras which was a triumph of design over functionality.

I well remember it like that. Very Art Deco to my ignorant eye. But not Irish in design, French I believe.

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 12:23am

Judgement Day wrote: »

The Sligo Great Southern Hotel was built after independence but I'm not sure if it was by the State owned (via CIE) GSH Company or by the private Great Southern Railways Company. Impressive in size for a small town like Sligo but not particularly notable otherwise. I had the misfortune to stay one night in it back in the late 1970's - it's part of the Best Western Hotel Group now and has probably greatly improved.

I find this quite an austere look, full of foreboding. (I swear I can hear howling on the moors!)

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 1:02am

You put some effort into that list, Victor, thanks. Had a scan through, most of the buildings don’t attract my eye, but these ones from your list which stand out for me.

O’Connell Street still has some beauty, if you look very hard beyond the tack, its there.
Fairview
Cottages in cul-de-sac, Quarry Road, Cabra
Flats complex in James’ Street
Mount Brown cottages
Richmond Hospital (could easily be the site of a Victorian murder mystery)
Shrewsbury Road
Foxrock (Tudor style building)
Brighton Road Foxrock
Cork Street (I think it’s a Nursing Home? – I was always attracted by the little balcony).

I quite understand when you say that architecture is not country-specific but some of those awful buildings just scream ‘Russia’ to me or ‘Germany’ as mentioned before. Some may appreciate that type of architecture, but its not for me.

After all your work, I can’t say that I have ever seen any building that stands out as being of ‘Irish design’ or ‘typically Irish’ except the country cottages and longhouses but they could be found in Scotland and other places also. It’s different when it comes to the other arts of course, paintings, sculptures, jewellery etc. But Irish design in architecture just does not seem to exist does it?

This began as a history question but is turning into an arts question and I apologise for that. I wanted Ireland to have produced something wonderful but I haven’t found it yet. Someone may yet point me toward it.

chughes · 26-04-2014 6:55am

If you are interested in the development of normal housing I can recommend a book called Dublin 1910-1940, Shaping The City & Suburbs by Ruth McManus.

The book describes the spread of Dublin during those years which, as you can see, includes the early years of the Free State.

KildareFan · 26-04-2014 9:32am

Hi, Archiseek has an incredible archive of 1000s of Irish buildings on its website. You can search by province & city.

Boards won't let me post a link because I'm a new user so all I can say is google

archiseek com buildings ireland buildings

and you should find the website. Click on the drop down menu 'Buildings of Ireland' and then click on the province, then county. There are 1000s of photos which are arranged chronologically. Dublin post 1913 starts at page 80 on the Dublin archive.

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 3:53pm

Will be checking Archiseek as soon as I get a chance. Thanks.

Cedrus · 26-04-2014 4:04pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

And here's a useless abomination built by the State shortly after the Republic was declared.

That is a personal opinion which is not shared universally as evidenced by the title of the photo you quote
www.irisharchitectureawards.ie/images/gold-medal/gold_busaras.jpg

In my opinion, Busaras is a fabulous building with extraordinary detail, the mosaics alone are worthy of awards. Sadly it has not been maintained to anything like the standard it deserves, indeed this is the fate of many buildings whether old or new architecture.

ezra_pound · 26-04-2014 4:09pm

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I well remember it like that. Very Art Deco to my ignorant eye. But not Irish in design, French I believe.

No. It's Irish in design and influenced airport design worldwide.

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 5:38pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

No. It's Irish in design and influenced airport design worldwide.

As yes, my ignorant eye being the fault, I thought everything Art Deco was French. D'uh!

Judgement Day · 26-04-2014 6:30pm

Cedrus wrote: »

That is a personal opinion which is not shared universally as evidenced by the title of the photo you quote
www.irisharchitectureawards.ie/images/gold-medal/gold_busaras.jpg

In my opinion, Busaras is a fabulous building with extraordinary detail, the mosaics alone are worthy of awards. Sadly it has not been maintained to anything like the standard it deserves, indeed this is the fate of many buildings whether old or new architecture.

Of course it's a personal opinion - but one shared by many. If you examine the bus station itself, it has been shoe horned into the building like it was an afterthought. That's a personal opinion too!

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 10:38pm

Just about everything I wrote here about buildings is my own personal opinion too - I suppose beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I hate, with a vengeance, the Civic Offices on Wood Quay/Fishamble Street/Winetavern Street. I have yet to find anyone who lives in the area who likes it, but Boards may supply that person now.

pedroeibar1 · 26-04-2014 10:42pm

One must remember that many of the architects of the Independence era were trained in England and were heavily influenced by what was happening there - prior to 1922 the majority of potential clients in Ireland were English or Anglo-Irish; after the 1922 period many of the works commissioned were from the same people, including the re-building of homes burned down. Many of the other works were commercial, e.g. banks, which always took on an air of ‘classical solidity’ to give the right image, so ‘new/modern/different’ is not a good idea.

Boyd Barrett who designed the Art Deco 1930’s Dept. of Industry and Commerce building on Kildare St. was Irish and trained here. However, much of the immediate the post-Independence work was reinstatement or social housing, so design one house and copy it X 100’s – Some of the landlords who were ‘burned out’ were allowed sell their compensation from central government to county/city councils for a percentage of the value. The councils were building 3 up 2 down type houses for the ‘working classes’, so that discount enabled them to build many more and was an important factor in developing the housing stock. Croydon Park in Fairview Dublin 3 is a typical example of that type of housing. Story here

Busarus - I too find it difficult to accept the ‘greatness’ of Michael Scott – perhaps because I’m not a fan of most of his architecture, including Busarus (which some say he had little input on). His firm (eventually Scott Tallon Walker) had some great buildings, e.g. the Carrolls factory in Dundalk, the Goulding house in Enniskerry, the Bank of Ireland on Baggot St., etc. but they were from the Mies-ian influence of the other partners, rather than from Scott himself.

For 20th century Irish architects I’m a big fan of Kevin Roche

I also believe that too many Irish people have no taste or aesthetic sense with regard to housing. Just walk around with your eyes open and see the dross....

Cedrus · 26-04-2014 11:20pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I also believe that too many Irish people have no taste or aesthetic sense with regard to housing. Just walk around with your eyes open and see the dross....

I tend to agree with this, but there is also the fact that developers are scared/ won't risk being different and there are not many opportunities for self build in urban areas, most people are going to have to buy in the mass market schemes. This doesn't excuse the rural blight of bungalow bliss haciendas of the 80s- 90s, or the McMansions of the tiger years.
To my mind, the cardinal sin of estate house owners when they get over the hump of their mortgage, is they add a porch/verandah with a PILLAR. A big white absolutely inappropriate fluted concrete pillar. "It adds a touch of class" they say, NO, it doesn't, the grand house style you think you're emulating takes more than a pillar.

I despair of the people who think that old architecture is wonderful and anything modern is rubbish. The crappy old stuff has long been knocked or just fell down, while we do still have to see all of the crappy modern stuff, it blurs the conception.

Cedrus · 26-04-2014 11:22pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Of course it's a personal opinion - but one shared by many. If you examine the bus station itself, it has been shoe horned into the building like it was an afterthought. That's a personal opinion too!

On a city centre site, shoehorning is to be expected.

Jellybaby1 · 26-04-2014 11:31pm

I think I'm being left behind at this stage of the thread!

I might have been happy just to see houses or buildings with a wee bit of celtic design. I Googled 'Celtic style house' and found roundhouses, found in Ireland and Wales. A skilled Architect could produce something modern with that design, couldnt he/she? This might be seen as an attempt, but I'm not taken with it myself: http://www.mernagh.ie/pc_ch1_hse.htm though I do like the roundhouses. Still just my opinion mind.

Cedrus · 26-04-2014 11:36pm

Following the burning of Cork in December 1920, the rebuilding was less than impressive, but the business' were likely driven by commercial concerns, the larger shops wanted to look solid and dependable while the smaller ones just wanted cheap and fast to get back into business.

Only Cash & Co and Egans went for an elegant stone finish, Roches went for a wedding cake effect and everyone else went for just walls and roof. There was a vile prefab lashup next to Roches, probably from later that the 20s that always reminded me of that 80s Xmas present (Linkit?) where you made plaster squares that meshed together.

ozmo · 26-04-2014 11:56pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Of course it's a personal opinion - but one shared by many. If you examine the bus station itself, it has been shoe horned into the building like it was an afterthought. That's a personal opinion too!

It was my opinon also until I took a tour there during the yearly open day events - and for its age its amazing inside- built from the very best the new Ireland had to offer to the highest standards inside. The very best materials inside and out - marble and stone everywhere. Its own custom designed fonts and once off fittings, door handles etc, for that one building. And the art built into the structuctures. Now is probably my favourite post Independence building-

pedroeibar1 · 27-04-2014 10:19am

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I might have been happy just to see houses or buildings with a wee bit of celtic design. I Googled 'Celtic style house' and found roundhouses, found in Ireland and Wales. A skilled Architect could produce something modern with that design, couldnt he/she? This might be seen as an attempt, but I'm not taken with it myself: http://www.mernagh.ie/pc_ch1_hse.htm though I do like the roundhouses. Still just my opinion mind.

Google images [ Pat McAuliffe stucco work Listowel ] and you should get plenty of Celtic embellishment! Some of his work is in Abbeyfeale also - dates to the late 1800's.
That 'round house' #2 is very like another from the late 1960's - will have to find the reference.

As for skilled architects providing the design - yes, they could, but it would not get past the planners ! 'You want to build a what? A Tower? It's round, like a chimney and HOW HIGH???? WHAT!!?? Go back to your monks and tell them that we have height restrictions here!

Judgement Day · 27-04-2014 10:46am

Cedrus wrote: »

On a city centre site, shoehorning is to be expected.

If you're designing a bus station - you design a bus station with anything else (offices. theatre etc) a secondary consideration but in the case of Bus Aras it seems to have been the other way round. The footprint of the building is large enough for it to have been got right. Anyway, I don't like the building and you do.

pedroeibar1 · 27-04-2014 10:58am

Cedrus wrote: »

........, but there is also the fact that developers are scared/ won't risk being different .......

They are not scared / won’t risk being different – they are greedy, want the most for the least and have no taste – look at what Zoe Developments threw up, look at the unimaginative blight outside most villages, look at the homes where the recent crop of developers lived – bling, in your face tat, unless of course they used a ‘designer’ instead of the latest wife.

Cedrus wrote: »

To my mind, the cardinal sin of estate house owners when they get over the hump of their mortgage, is they add a porch/verandah with a PILLAR. A big white absolutely inappropriate fluted concrete pillar. "It adds a touch of class" they say, NO, it doesn't, the grand house style you think you're emulating takes more than a pillar.

They sin long before that.
Gardens – no idea of what a garden should do or be. Total absence of planting. It is worse in the country, where new houses are built and years later they get around to ‘doing’ a lawn with a row of leylandii around the edges. Straight line driveways, black tarmac, a blueyellowred plastic swing and wendyhouse in a corner, everything in your face ‘look what we have achieved!’

The now ubiquitous ****ty plastic conservatory with a half wall (and usually no exterior door!) is IMO as bad as the pillared porch.

The stupidity (and growing frequency) of the crass exposure of random rubble walls with raised ‘pointing’ highlighted by brick window surrounds.

The insistence of stone cladding in rural Ireland as being ‘traditional’ – no it’s bloody not, never was, even cottier houses were mortared and limewashed.

The worst by far are the omnipresent awful windows – plastic ‘glazing bars’ inserted BETWEEN the panes, horrible clunky PVC frames, windows that ‘flap’ instead of being sliding sash, plastic front doors with bits of coloured glass inset. Not to mention the iron-on lead strips to give that ‘Tudor’ look!

Rant over!

pedroeibar1 · 27-04-2014 1:39pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

That 'round house' #2 is very like another from the late 1960's - will have to find the reference.

Morris and Steedman's 1964 house Marchwell in Midlothian.

Building after the British left

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