how to spell these names? And which do you prefer? :)

yabbadabbadoo

Hi folks,

Please excuse me for not having the skill to post as Gaeilge...

We are due a little girl and trying to choose between Eilís & Alannah.

Eilís after my mother who is Elizabeth. I understand that there should be a fada on the E but can't seem to get it on a capital. Where I'm from, I've only ever encountered this name on older women around 60 and it's pronounced Eye-lish. I assume this is a legitimate pronunciation, and would mean knocking off that second fada?
I know in Munster it's Eye-leash. I've only met one girl with that name & it sounded odd to me. What do you think?

As for Alannah, my husband thinks this is a sexier name, but my mother thinks its kind of a non-name, just meaning 'child' though I have fond memories of an affectionate old woman calling me this as a little one. So, Alannah, Alana? Is there a legitimate spelling in Gaeilge? or would you consider it a bit made up or thrashy even?

What kind of women are Eilis and Alannah?

I should also note my husband is from the US & we may move there, so want an Irish name that travels well but sounds a little bit unique, fresh over there. We understand that it may not bring its 'baggage' with it, if you know what I mean. We are also open to any other suggestions.

Go rabh maith agat

Alan Shore

On the basis of experience if you give a child an Irish name that has a fada in it they will spend their lives correcting people who mispronounce it.

Most Irish people pronounce Ciarán, Kieran.
So Eilís may become Eilish to stop it become Eilis. If you do go to the States it would be a bigger battle.

Alanna is an Americian name while it phonetically works for "Alanna mo Cree" Leanbh mo Chroi it would work better in the long term. Most people would not get the link though!

Rhedyn

Eilís - is the correct spelling, there is no fada on the capital.
Eye-lish = is the pronunciation that spelling gives you.
To leave out the fada is simply incorrect.

Unfortunately even in Irish society most English speakers don't respect Irish spelling, so your daughter will probably have to explain the fada often. I don't think it would be a bigger problem in the States, America has many minority languages and the largest, Spanish, also has accents. They have better rights for their language than Irish has in Ireland.

Alannah - is not an Irish name. It is an anglicisation of "a leanbh" from the pronunciation of that term. It is a term of endearment often used in Irish (in Connemara in particular) but never given as a child's name among Irish native speakers.

There are plenty other nice girl's names. But with the exception of a few of them English speakers, even without the fada,will have a problem with the correct pronunciation.

Sorcha - is one of my own favourites.

ezra_pound

Rhedyn wrote: »

Eilís - is the correct spelling, there is no fada on the capital.
Eye-lish = is the pronunciation that spelling gives you.
To leave out the fada is simply incorrect.

This is incorrect.

An í in Irish is a long ee sound so eilís would be pronounced -eesh at the end.

Teyla Emmagan

Alannah is awful IMO :-)

Rhedyn

ezra_pound wrote: »

This is incorrect.

An í in Irish is a long ee sound so eilís would be pronounced -eesh at the end.

Yes I agree "-eesh" is closer to the sound.

You can hear it on Forvo (dot) com - it won't let me post the url.

Benny Cake

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Hi folks,

Please excuse me for not having the skill to post as Gaeilge...

We are due a little girl and trying to choose between Eilís & Alannah.

Eilís after my mother who is Elizabeth. I understand that there should be a fada on the E but can't seem to get it on a capital. Where I'm from, I've only ever encountered this name on older women around 60 and it's pronounced Eye-lish. I assume this is a legitimate pronunciation, and would mean knocking off that second fada?
I know in Munster it's Eye-leash. I've only met one girl with that name & it sounded odd to me. What do you think?

As for Alannah, my husband thinks this is a sexier name, but my mother thinks its kind of a non-name, just meaning 'child' though I have fond memories of an affectionate old woman calling me this as a little one. So, Alannah, Alana? Is there a legitimate spelling in Gaeilge? or would you consider it a bit made up or thrashy even?

What kind of women are Eilis and Alannah?

I should also note my husband is from the US & we may move there, so want an Irish name that travels well but sounds a little bit unique, fresh over there. We understand that it may not bring its 'baggage' with it, if you know what I mean. We are also open to any other suggestions.

Go rabh maith agat

Slightly off topic and probably not my business but speaking from experience I would advise allowing inlaws an input into choosing your baby's name. It should be down to you and your partner, choose one that you like, not one that pleases granny....

yabbadabbadoo

Bennycake, I think you are completely right! I really wish I had never consulted my mother... a long and bitter story!

Back on topic, I'm leaning strongly towards Eilis - but the Eyelish form of that. Would it be really awful to spell it Eilish?

Any ideas where I could go to get the definitive story on that fada on the i ? And no fada on the E then?

Go raibh maith agaibh arís xxx

An gal gréine

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Back on topic, I'm leaning strongly towards Eilis - but the Eyelish form of that. Would it be really awful to spell it Eilish?

Any ideas where I could go to get the definitive story on that fada on the i ? And no fada on the E then?

Go raibh maith agaibh arís xxx

Eilís is the standard, however, in the Ulster version A-lish (as in Danish) would be the norm and if you were to write that it would be Éilis.

An gal gréine

Just noticed an election poster in Dublin Central for one of the prospective councillors, an independent, and her first name is spelt Éilis.

nosietoes

Éilis would be pronounced A-lish rather than Eilís which is pronounced eye-leesh

username123

Someone I know has named a child Caitlin (there may be a fada somewhere) but they pronounce it Kate-land, I always thought that name as pronounced Cotch-Lynn (excuse the phonetic spelling).

hullaballoo

Fadas are unnecessary for capital letters. This general rule applies to most languages that use our alphabet. The rule is that it's up to you whether you use the accent unless it is preferable to differentiate words.

In Irish, ait and áit are an example of two different words where it is preferable to use an accent if capitalising. Admittedly I cannot think of a sentence where the two words could be confused if taken in context.

Rhedyn

hullaballoo wrote: »

In Irish, ait and áit are an example of two different words where it is preferable to use an accent if capitalising. Admittedly I cannot think of a sentence where the two words could be confused if taken in context.

Áit ait é seo.

Aard

hullaballoo wrote: »

Fadas are unnecessary for capital letters. This general rule applies to most languages that use our alphabet. The rule is that it's up to you whether you use the accent unless it is preferable to differentiate words.

That's not true - Irish always uses the fada even when a vowel is capitalised. It's never optional. When have you ever seen the word Éire written without a fada?

TitianGerm

My girlfriend has always wanted to call her first daughter Siofra. I think there is a fada in there somewhere but she's the irish speaker

yabbadabbadoo

Siofra is a fab name, have a few friends with kids called that though.

Am I wrong in thinking the Ay-lish pronunciation is Gaelic for Alice & therefore a different name?

hullaballoo

Aard wrote: »

That's not true - Irish always uses the fada even when a vowel is capitalised. It's never optional. When have you ever seen the word Éire written without a fada?

Sorry, but it is true.

username123

hullaballoo wrote: »

Sorry, but it is true.

Eire without a fada means "burden".

hullaballoo

username123 wrote: »

Eire without a fada means "burden".

I suppose that's why it's rarely seen without a fada. Nonetheless, my point stands - when capitalising, accents are not strictly necessary but are preferable where a lack of capitalisation could give rise to confusion.

username123

hullaballoo wrote: »

I suppose that's why it's rarely seen without a fada. Nonetheless, my point stands - when capitalising, accents are not strictly necessary but are preferable where a lack of capitalisation could give rise to confusion.

I dont agree that your point stands. I think that that postage stamp was actually an error.

I think the fada is always necessary.

An gal gréine

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Siofra is a fab name, have a few friends with kids called that though.

Am I wrong in thinking the Ay-lish pronunciation is Gaelic for Alice & therefore a different name?

Ailís is Alice in English; different name.

Grudaire

hullaballoo wrote: »

I suppose that's why it's rarely seen without a fada. Nonetheless, my point stands - when capitalising, accents are not strictly necessary but are preferable where a lack of capitalisation could give rise to confusion.

I've never heard this before either, and I'm inclined to disagree that it is 'correct' to leave out the fada.

Given how many versions of Irish exist I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case in certain areas, but I doubt 'an Caighdeán Oifigiúil' would agree.. had a quick google and can't see anything online, I'd be curious that if you have a source, could make an interesting read!

hullaballoo

Grudaire wrote: »

I've never heard this before either, and I'm inclined to disagree that it is 'correct' to leave out the fada.

Given how many versions of Irish exist I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case in certain areas, but I doubt 'an Caighdeán Oifigiúil' would agree.. had a quick google and can't see anything online, I'd be curious that if you have a source, could make an interesting read!

I had a look myself and I cannot see anything to back myself up so I'm beginning to doubt it myself. My "source" is my Irish teacher from school who was quite the linguist, speaking at least 5 languages fluently.

I suppose I just accepted what he said as authoritative and never questioned it but I can see how omitting fadas would be unworkable in most circumstances.

Grudaire

The state of Irish education eh? :P

Insect Overlord

There's a chance you might be confusing it with a different rule. When using an urú before a vowel, you'd usually add a "-" between the urú and that vowel (e.g. ár n-athair, an t-arán). That fleiscín isn't needed when using capital letters (e.g. an tAthair Peadar Ua Laoghaire).

username123

hullaballoo wrote: »

I suppose I just accepted what he said as authoritative and never questioned it but I can see how omitting fadas would be unworkable in most circumstances.

Course it doesnt help when the State is actually producing stamps that include the error!

Aard

If your teacher spoke several languages, then he may have been referring to French where it certainly is the done thing not to accent upper case letters. Or perhaps he assumed by association that all languages with diacritics work like that.

deirdremf

hullaballoo wrote: »

I had a look myself and I cannot see anything to back myself up so I'm beginning to doubt it myself. My "source" is my Irish teacher from school who was quite the linguist, speaking at least 5 languages fluently.

I suppose I just accepted what he said as authoritative and never questioned it but I can see how omitting fadas would be unworkable in most circumstances.

I had a teacher who said the same, but he was wrong - he was trying to apply a French rule to Irish.
In Irish the fada is always written - if you want to be correct.
Just look at the surnames in Ó, for instance, to go no further!

To get back to the name Éilis, IMO it should be spelt with a fada on the E.
Nonetheless, you often see it written without, even in Irish language texts.

ViveLaVie

Grudaire wrote: »

I've never heard this before either, and I'm inclined to disagree that it is 'correct' to leave out the fada.

Given how many versions of Irish exist I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case in certain areas, but I doubt 'an Caighdeán Oifigiúil' would agree.. had a quick google and can't see anything online, I'd be curious that if you have a source, could make an interesting read!

It's the case in French so that lends credence to the statement that it's true of many languages.

Aard

ViveLaVie wrote: »

It's the case in French so that lends credence to the statement that it's true of many languages.

Eh no, it lends credence to the statement that it's true for French. What an extrapolation.

ezra_pound

deirdremf wrote: »

I had a teacher who said the same, but he was wrong - he was trying to apply a French rule to Irish.
In Irish the fada is always written - if you want to be correct.
Just look at the surnames in Ó, for instance, to go no further!

To get back to the name Éilis, IMO it should be spelt with a fada on the E.
Nonetheless, you often see it written without, even in Irish language texts.

Why should it have a fada? All the Eilís-es I know pronounce it aye-leesh which would mean that it shouldn't be fadad.

Edit: aye-leesh as in aye aye captain

yabbadabbadoo

Ok folks, thanks for the scholarly analysis, now I'd like your personal opinions please.

I accept that both Eye-lish and Eye-leesh are valid pronounciations as I've met both from different generations and parts of the country.

But which do you think is the prettier sound? (and easier to say/live with) - purely personal opinions please!

Paramite Pie

yabbadabbadoo wrote: »

Ok folks, thanks for the scholarly analysis, now I'd like your personal opinions please.

I accept that both Eye-lish and Eye-leesh are valid pronounciations as I've met both from different generations and parts of the country.

But which do you think is the prettier sound? (and easier to say/live with) - purely personal opinions please!

I prefer the sound of Eye-leesh personally. As long as you don't spell it that way!!:D

My mum has a cousin named Alana in Scotland, I never knew it's meaning. It's not a bad name as most people are oblivious to its origins. Most Irish people have 'conventional' Western names and not traditional ones anyways so if you like the name you could also consider it. The majority of us won't think twice about the meaning - I think it sounds pretty!:cool: