Season 4 Episode 4 "Oathkeeper": *HAVE* read the books

Hotale.com

Blay wrote: »

I actually liked it too don't get me wrong, even Brienne's chapters which people seem to hate.

But the non reader's probably think it's going to continue like it has been this season and they're sorely mistaken. There's a big drop off in action after this season and it's back to political wranging etc. which might piss them off.

They're already tired of Dany's story and Bran's so if we take that as a sign, they'll hate what is to come.

Did anyone see the next episode's promo..they're just ****ign with the non readers in one particluar scene.

If they do Bran's story in the next season as well as Martin did it in ADWD I don't think anyone will have issues with it. Bran's ADWD chapters are some of Martin's best in my opinion.

Witcher

Hotale.com wrote: »

If they do Bran's story in the next season as well as Martin did it in ADWD I don't think anyone will have issues with it. Bran's ADWD chapters are some of Martin's best in my opinion.

They are but I think the non readers are a bit less patient in waiting for the story to develop..they already want Bran dead and the chap's only been on screen for a while over the last two seasons. Even his warg powers etc. don't seem to hold their interest:pac: They'll just see Bran talking to a tree and be like 'What the fcuk is this?':pac: I don't know what they'lll have BR and Bran talk about..the speech about loving one brother and hating another won't really work since they haven't explained the BF Rebellion in the show. They'll have to invent the dialogue which will be very well received by the purists:p

I think they were really expecting a payoff in Dany's story this year and they will be pissed when it doesn't come. I can see a lot of them being annoyed when the wildings are turned back at the Wall too and nothing really comes of that.

Blay

Blay wrote: »

That's pretty much all the books are from now on. There's the battle of Castle Black and the Battle Beneath the Wall and from then on it's just people talking bollocks. Especially AFFC.

but then we get

victarion and euron greyjoy love those guys

Paddy Cow

OctavarIan wrote: »

Not surprised at all that the TV series is deviating more from the books the closer they get. Having Jon actually meet Bran would be terrible though and I hope that doesn't happen.

I doubt it. Deviations from the book only work if they don't affect the overall story, like when they created scenes for Arya and Tywin at Harrenhal. Coldhands will turn up and kill all the Night's Watch and be gone with Bran and the others before Jon's group turns up. Instead of finding the mutineers, Jon will find a load of walkers and in the ensuing fight, Locke gets killed.

Btw, did Coldhands kill all of Craster's daughters or spare them?

Jelle1880

It does kind of make sense that they include the end to explain what happens to Caster's sons, but I can imagine a lot of people expecting that there will be more attention on the White Walkers etc. now, which doesn't really happen.

All in all I quite enjoyed it, a few more things which are being set up nicely.

Hotale.com

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It does kind of make sense that they include the end to explain what happens to Caster's sons, but I can imagine a lot of people expecting that there will be more attention on the White Walkers etc. now, which doesn't really happen.

All in all I quite enjoyed it, a few more things which are being set up nicely.

The problem I have with it is I saw a HBO synopsis of the episode which possibly spoiled the White Walkers..

Witcher

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It does kind of make sense that they include the end to explain what happens to Caster's sons, but I can imagine a lot of people expecting that there will be more attention on the White Walkers etc. now, which doesn't really happen.

All in all I quite enjoyed it, a few more things which are being set up nicely.

Yeah I think it's suggesting an immiment battle with them which obviously is a bit far off yet.

Non readers aren't to know that it's just D&D explaining something from the books so when nothing transpires there either it won't go down well.

Witcher

Hotale.com wrote: »

The problem I have with it is I saw a HBO synopsis of the episode which possibly spoiled the White Walkers..

I think the particular name they called that guy in the description might just be a show name for him and might not bear any link to the actual guy from the books.

They haven't explained any of that story within the show which leads me to believe it's just a name they've brought across from the books. I hope so anyway.

Elio that runs Westeros.org and works closely with GRRM said in the comments of his Youtube discussion of the episode that it's likely whoever wrote that passage went looking through the wiki for some sort of name to link with the guy at the end and stumbled upon that one. He said they often haven't read the books and go to the wiki etc. for names, places.

jebidiah

Washington Irving wrote: »

Yeah, it didn't show Sam telling him about it, but Jon said something about how when he got back to Castle Black he only wished he could recuperate from his arrow wound and go after Bran. Sam says he tried to convince Bran to come with him instead of going north. It's around 35-36 mins in.

I imagine it's to do with Roose's orders to Locke about going after Bran and Rickon. They need something to slow down Bran's arc after skipping so far ahead.

Didn't Jon spot summer when he is with the wildlings though? Is that not when he gets an idea that bran is alive?

Nerdlingr

Just watched it. Not too sure what to make of it all. The ending....hmmmm...undecided. Don't know if I like the whole deviation from the books at Crasters Keep. Obviously they need some excitement thrown in for TV but it just sits uneasy with me. The whole of Mereen been overthrown in two minutes? Grey Worm walks into a massive city, finds a slave rebellion meeting and gives the lads a few swords...stretching it!! Don't think I've enjoyed Season 4 as much as I thought I would. Only the Red Viper can save it now!!

Witcher

jebidiah wrote: »

Didn't Jon spot summer when he is with the wildlings though? Is that not when he gets an idea that bran is alive?

The direwolves being alive doesn't necessarily mean his brothers are, just that Theon etc. threw the wolves out of Winterfell and let them roam the North.

Burt Macklin

Back on topic of the episode, thought it was pretty good. Good scenes between Jaime and Cersei/Bronn/Brienne/Tyrion.

Night's King obviously a talking point. Not entirely sure how I feel about it, but definitely excited.

Oh, and the Queen of Thorns sex tips to Margaery was gas!

Mickeroo

Loved it.

Delighted they spelled out Joffrey's murder, always felt it was painfully obvious in the books anyway and the alternate fan theories were pants tbh.

I got pretty giddy in the last few minutes too. Great to be left guessing for a change. A little bemused at people being a bit annoyed over the scene tbh as if it's a spoiler. Anything that expands on what's going on north of the wall is ok in my book.

I'm loving the deviations from the book. Really hope Jon and Bran get a scene together at Crasters.

Also, I think the show is gradually becoming better than the books. There I said it. :pac:

Liam O

Mickeroo wrote: »

Loved it.

Delighted they spelled out Joffrey's murder, always felt it was painfully obvious in the books anyway and the alternate fan theories were pants tbh.

I got pretty giddy in the last few minutes too. Great to be left guessing for a change. A little bemused at people being a bit annoyed over the scene tbh as if it's a spoiler. Anything that expands on what's going on north of the wall is ok in my book.

I'm loving the deviations from the book. Really hope Jon and Bran get a scene together at Crasters.

Also, I think the show is gradually becoming better than the books. There I said it. :pac:

The thing is, they spelled out the death in a way that doesn't make sense. Margaery had to be in on it, there's no other way nobody's going to notice an old woman get up, walk 5 feet and put something in Joff's cup. Margaery not knowing about it makes zero sense, I assumed it was Garlan in the books and Margaery in the show. No way Olenna could have dropped it in given the placement of the cup and how the scene developed.

The show is too simplistic and nonsensical. Too many things happen that make little or no sense and then are explained using strawman logic later on. Watch as a whore who manipulated Tyrion into bringing her in house suddenly decides to care more about him than gold supposedly and winds up in his father's bed as a spurned lover. Can't wait to see how they explain that one. My living situation is with 4 people who are only show watchers and we have HBO. The only reason I'm still watching is because I'm there and it gets put on. The show has really jumped the shark and seemingly have to show characters every do often because people with low attention spans will forget about who they are. Would the Wire do such a thing? No. Having mandatory sex scenes that add nothing to the show most of the time taking up characters and character development just for shock value has gotten very old very fast and the instant gratification given to viewers devalues it compared to the books. I mean don't spoon feed people...

Daith

Liam O wrote: »

Watch as a whore who manipulated Tyrion into bringing her in house suddenly decides to care more about him than gold supposedly and winds up in his father's bed as a spurned lover. Can't wait to see how they explain that one.

This hasn't happened in the show and yet you are already complaining about it?

eyeball kid

Have to say I'm enjoying the changes. Its nice not to know what's coming up. Haven't had that since the 1st series after which I read all the books.

Noopti

I really enjoyed this episode. I thought the scene with Littlefinger and Sansa was very enoyable, and very well acted.

The reveal about the purple wedding was good, I don't see the point in dragging that out for episodes/seasons.

The mutineers in Crastors Keep, another great scene/scenes. Uncomfortable to watch because it is so well acted and written. The leader of the mutineers is a really good actor, I remember him standing out when he (suddenly?) appeared in the mutiny episode as the instigator.

Sack of Mereen was....meh. But didn't totally bother me.

The Night's King at the end. Really enjoyed that, I thought the it was brilliantly shot and with great atmosphere. I also don't think it spoiled anything for me, surely we all know about the Night's King and that he exists, considering Old Nan mentioned him in the books in her stories? So showing him on screen....what exactly does that spoil?

Probably my favourite episode of the season so far. Some excellent scenes, great acting and exciting reveals.

Daith

eyeball kid wrote: »

Have to say I'm enjoying the changes. Its nice not to know what's coming up. Haven't had that since the 1st series after which I read all the books.

Agreed. I especially like in the Red Wedding not knowing what would happen to Robb's wife. There's a brilliant video going around which tried to make her a spy for Tywin and had me convinced. So while I knew what was mostly going to happen I still was hooked because I didn't know everything.

Noopti

Liam O wrote: »

The thing is, they spelled out the death in a way that doesn't make sense. Margaery had to be in on it, there's no other way nobody's going to notice an old woman get up, walk 5 feet and put something in Joff's cup. Margaery not knowing about it makes zero sense, I assumed it was Garlan in the books and Margaery in the show. No way Olenna could have dropped it in given the placement of the cup and how the scene developed.

http://m.imgur.com/a/2DtPH

This does a good job at explaining it. Although it could easily be construed from it that Margaery is involved, based on the subsequent scenes in the latest episode it is obvious she wasn't. She just innocently placed the cup on her Grandmothers table, giving her the perfect opportunity to place the poison. Even if she hadn't placed the cup there - it is a wedding feast. They would all get drunker and drunker and of course there would be plenty of opportunities to place the poison in his cup at some stage. The Queen of Thorns is a wily auld woman.

Tom.D.BJJ

Alot of people saying the deviations form the books are great. I really don't agree, particularly about Bran at Craster's keep. Ghost being caged, and Summer being caught in a trap is a bit stupid as well. Dany taking Mereen so quickly also.

The tv show really is dumbing everything down to the point of oversimplification, and at a big cost to the plot.

Edit to add: The QoT telling Margaery how much of a go-er she used to be was more than a little jarring, and totally unneccesary

Mr Freeze

I didn't mind that scene with the White Walker. So its a WW that the baby turned in to? Is that confirmed?

I don't mind the deviations from the book either, it makes a few storylines more interesting that may have been a bit boring. It can only improve Bran's current storyline anyways.

Now, what I do take an issue with and its not just in this episode, its a general thing about how the show writers are handling Daenerys. They seem to be portraying her in a good a light as possible.

She took Meereen with ease, they cut out the whole near impossible wading through 6ft of sewage, and then her decision to kill the masters by crucifixion seemed really rushed. They just kinda glossed over it.

Like when she took Astapor, they left out the bit about every male over 12 that's not a slave being put to death.

They are leaving out the atrocities that Daenerys is committing to show her in a ridiculously good light.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Alot of people saying the deviations form the books are great. I really don't agree, particularly about Bran at Craster's keep. Ghost being caged, and Summer being caught in a trap is a bit stupid as well. Dany taking Mereen so quickly also.

Well it wasn't Summer though. It was Bran in Summers body and I think it's a nice way to show that Bran isn't invincible when he wargs.

Bran's story at this point in the books is boring. It's nice to actually to give him some more story before he turns into a tree.

Does it really matter how long it takes Dany to take over Mereen.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

The tv show really is dumbing everything down to the point of oversimplification, and at a big cost to the plot.

I don't think it is. I think people are getting upset that it's dismissing various theories that have been built up though.

Dumbing down would be having Dany sack Mereen with her Dragons.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Edit to add: The QoT telling Margaery how much of a go-er she used to be was more than a little jarring, and totally unneccesary

Really? I thought it was a nice mirror to the Tywin scene from last week. She's teaching Margaery.

Mickeroo

Regards what Liam O said about Shae, I kind of agree to a point but we'll see how it plays out first. That and the mishandling of the "rape" last week have been my only gripes really. Most everything else has been an improvement.

Hopefully R+ L = J will be confirmed next week and Oberyn survives his duel with the mountain later on

Tom.D.BJJ

Daith wrote: »

Does it really matter how long it takes Dany to take over Mereen.

My concern is that the show is rushing through the stories of various characters. What's Dany going to do for the next two seasons? The showrunners will have her up and out of Meereen in no time.

Will there be even time for the characters to converge on Meereen. Untangling the Meereenese knot before it's even tied.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

My concern is that the show is rushing through the stories of various characters. What's Dany going to do for the next two seasons? The showrunners will have her up and out of Meereen in no time.

Will there be even time for the characters to converge on Meereen. Untangling the Meereenese knot before it's even tied.

Yet if it took her longer to take Meereen people would complain about the padding of Dany's story. Look at the non-readers thread. People complaining that it's another slave city.

Mickeroo

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

My concern is that the show is rushing through the stories of various characters. What's Dany going to do for the next two seasons? The showrunners will have her up and out of Meereen in no time.

Will there be even time for the characters to converge on Meereen. Untangling the Meereenese knot before it's even tied.

There's plenty of stuff to fill up Danny's storyline in the next few seasons imo. Don't think we'll be seeing too much of her after last night this season what with everything that has to be covered in Westeros.

Tom.D.BJJ

Mickeroo wrote: »

Hopefully R+ L = J will be confirmed next week and Oberyn survives his duel with the mountain later on

:D:D

Wrap it up this season.

GGRM had better hurry because the tv show is decimating his legacy before he even has a chance to finish it

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

Hopefully R+ L = J will be confirmed next week

Not untill Bran, Jon, Arya, The Hound, Rickon, the wolves and the Reeds all meet up and there's an innocent comment about how much Arya is like Jon's mother.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

GGRM had better hurry because the tv show is decimating his legacy before he even has a chance to finish it

How?

Kunkka

Are they really going down a romantic route with Grey Worm too? Dear god...

Daith

Kunkka wrote: »

Are they really going down a romantic route with Grey Worm too? Dear god...

Yes but only because he ends up marrying Dany in the last book.

longhalloween

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Alot of people saying the deviations form the books are great. I really don't agree, particularly about Bran at Craster's keep. Ghost being caged, and Summer being caught in a trap is a bit stupid as well. Dany taking Mereen so quickly also.

The tv show really is dumbing everything down to the point of oversimplification, and at a big cost to the plot.

I like the deviations. As book readers I think we miss out on the thrill and suspense non-book readers get from watching.
For me the most exciting part of the RW and PW was watching my girlfriends reactions, not the events themselves.

The last 30 seconds of that episode was the first time in 4 seasons I didn't know what was going on and it was great!

Besides, GRRM is a screenwriter as well as an author, so he more than anyone will know that storylines and timelines have to be altered to make for a compelling show.

Mousewar

Kunkka wrote: »

Are they really going down a romantic route with Grey Worm too? Dear god...

...because he spoke to a woman?

ibarelycare

Mickeroo wrote: »

Also, I think the show is gradually becoming better than the books. There I said it. :pac:

Agree! Part of me wishes I hadn't read the books now


I also thought that was Coldhands making an appearance with the baby



Regarding the "revelation" that Craster's sons are turned into WWs, this is heavily hinted at in the books after Craster and Mormont are killed. One of Craster's wives begs Sam to take Gilly and the baby before "they" do.

“They?” said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, “They. They. They.”

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

longhalloween

Mousewar wrote: »

...because he spoke to a woman?

Someone said in a previous thread he was going to get romantic with Dany too.

Kunkka

Mousewar wrote: »

...because he spoke to a woman?

Not just that there was a strange look they gave eachother in the first episode too which was also flagged here.

Burt Macklin

So this is a very good opportunity to introduce Coldhands, unless they decide to have Jon rescue Bran. Speaking of which, the ominous music that played when Locke volunteered was a bit silly I thought.

alwald

Have I missed something?? maybe it's just my memory but I think that in the books Ser Barristan and Jorah Mormont were supposed to go through the sewer of Mereen.....I am just wondering how the betrayal part will play now. I love all the deviations from the books .

TimeToShine

When you think about it there are people who have been reading this series for well over 10 years and tbh to have it spoiled on screen is a disgrace tbh. GRRM is as much to blame as anyone. Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, especially if HBO have a contract that essentially forces his hand.

I understand that most readers think deviation is a quite interesting novelty but for people who have been following this series for a while it really won't do. They're going mad over on AFOIAF and rightly so.

alwald

TimeToShine wrote: »

Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, especially if HBO have a contract that essentially forces his hand.

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

Witcher

alwald wrote: »

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

The show would sell even better if he actually released the books in that case because a lot of the books readers will drop off from next season on because of spoilers.

lynski

TimeToShine wrote: »

Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, .

Wow, I think that is a very entitled statement. if the man never releases another book ad spends the rest of his life fishing it is no ones business but his. he is under obligation to noone.

i think it is a bit rich for anyone to be crying spoilers at this stage as the whole show is a spolier for non-book readers.

username123

TimeToShine wrote: »

I understand that most readers think deviation is a quite interesting novelty but for people who have been following this series for a while it really won't do. They're going mad over on AFOIAF and rightly so.

Why? Bit of an overreaction if you ask me. No one is being forced to watch the tv show, if they want the story delivered through book format only all they have to do is, eh, not watch the show.

TimeToShine

alwald wrote: »

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

I would put my house on it that he doesn't have the books finished. It took him 5 years to release ADWD FFS and even then there was a heap of filler in it (Quentyn anyone?) without that many plot lines being resolved.

TimeToShine

lynski wrote: »

Wow, I think that is a very entitled statement. if the man never releases another book ad spends the rest of his life fishing it is no ones business but his. he is under obligation to anyone.

i think it is a bit rich for anyone to be crying spoilers at this stage as the whole show is a spolier for non-book readers.

Hang on a sec, it's not fair saying that I am "entitled". I've only been reading the books for a few years (granted I started the year before the TV show but it's still not that long) so I don't think I personally am entitled to anything. It's the people who have been following him since the 90's, die hard fans who have dissected every last bit of his storyline in an attempt to find meaning that are being screwed over. If you think they're not "entitled" to have years of faith rewarded with the story being finished how it began then we have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. He is also arguably under obligation to himself to finish what he started but that's neither here nor there really.

I don't understand your last comment tbh, the show isn't a spoiler for non-book readers because this is the medium they have chosen to invest their time through.

Burt Macklin

alwald wrote: »

What makes you think that he didn't finish the books? I strongly believe that he either finished all the books or that he's almost there but he just can't release them yet. HBO would have payed him nicely to delay the release of the last 2 books as they want the TV show to sell, book readers (die hard fans like meself) will always buy the last 2 books to have their collection completed.

What makes him think that GRRM hasn't finished the books? Well maybe the five year gap between the third and fourth book or the six year wait for ADWD which was supposed to arrive in 2006.

There is no way HBO are delying him, how would that improve their viewing figures? Book readers are still watching the show as it stands.

If anything, I'd say HBO would want the last two books out as soon as possible so they can have clearer idea of the future of the show.

Mickeroo

TimeToShine wrote: »

When you think about it there are people who have been reading this series for well over 10 years and tbh to have it spoiled on screen is a disgrace tbh. GRRM is as much to blame as anyone. Arsing around at conventions and writing mini-series instead of the actual book everyone wants could end up biting him in the arse, especially if HBO have a contract that essentially forces his hand.

I understand that most readers think deviation is a quite interesting novelty but for people who have been following this series for a while it really won't do. They're going mad over on AFOIAF and rightly so.

I think people just need to get over it tbh. GRRM owes nobody anything and the makers of the show are only concerned with the show, and rightly so.

Also GRRM is a notoriously slow writer and it's been pretty apparent from last season that certain things in the book are going to clarified sooner than in the book and that the show will eventually overtake the books, if anyone really has a problem with that then they should just stop watching the show imo.

Also, to be fair I think the only things that have been "ruined" so far are the theories about Jeyne Westerling and any theories about Oleanna not being the one who killed Joffrey. I think it's a bit rich for folks to be annoyed about the show "ruining" what turned out to be nothing more than theories thought up by the fans in the first place.

TimeToShine

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think people just need to get over it tbh. GRRM owes nobody anything and the makers of the show are only concerned with the show, and rightly so.

Also GRRM is a notoriously slow writer and it's been pretty apparent from last season that certain things in the book are going to clarified sooner in the book and that the show will eventually overtake the books, if anyone really has a problem with that then they should just stop watching the show imo.

Also, to be fair I think the only things that have been "ruined" so far are the theories about Jeyne Westerling and any theories about Oleanna not being the one who killed Joffrey. I think it's a bit rich for folks to be annoyed about the show "ruining" what turned out to be nothing more than theories thought up by the fans in the first place.

I agree to some extent but as the shows goes on more and more will have to be revealed. If it is indeed the case that the show overtakes the books I would at least expect a public apology, I like the show a lot but given the choice between it and the book I'll take the latter every time (as would most book readers).

I also really don't like the "stop watching the show" argument. It's very dismissive of the problem at hand and rather than discuss the issue it opts to ignore it by effectively telling anyone with a problem to **** off

alwald

Burt Macklin wrote: »

There is no way HBO are delaying him, how would that improve their viewing figures. Book readers are still watching the show as it stands.

the surprise factor about how it's going to end and what will happen to each single character in the show.
Do you really think that HBO would like to have everything spoiled way before the release of the last season and the last episode?
The only way to create the buzz and have people/media/social media...talk about the show is by leaving all the question marks unanswered until the last few episodes of the final season.

TimeToShine

alwald wrote: »

the surprise factor about how it's going to end and what will happen to each single character in the show.
Do you really think that HBO would like to have everything spoiled way before the release of the last season and the last episode?
The only way to create the buzz and have people/media/social media...talk about the show is by leaving all the question marks unanswered until the last few episodes of the final season.

Are you saying you think the books will be released after the show ends deliberately? If true that would make GRRM a complete and utter sellout. The plot has always been out there, it's up to show watchers to be careful and avoid it. Why would that suddenly change?

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

I agree to some extent but as the shows goes on more and more will have to be revealed. If it is indeed the case that the show overtakes the books I would at least expect a public apology, I like the show a lot but given the choice between it and the book I'll take the latter every time (as would most book readers).

I also really don't like the "stop watching the show" argument. It's very dismissive of the problem at hand and rather than discuss the issue it opts to ignore it by effectively telling anyone with a problem to **** off

We tell book readers not to read this thread. Is that dismissing the problem for them? Don't watch the show if it's causing you this much grief and wait for the books.

Public apology for what?