Season 4 Episode 4 "Oathkeeper": *HAVE* read the books

username123

TimeToShine wrote: »

I agree to some extent but as the shows goes on more and more will have to be revealed. If it is indeed the case that the show overtakes the books I would at least expect a public apology, I like the show a lot but given the choice between it and the book I'll take the latter every time (as would most book readers).

I also really don't like the "stop watching the show" argument. It's very dismissive of the problem at hand and rather than discuss the issue at hand it opts to ignore it by effectively telling anyone with a problem to **** off

A public apology?

Dismissive of the problem at hand?

Seriously - get a life people!! Its a STORY, a made up thing!! Choose your preferred way of accessing it, whether it be book, show or both!

Public apology - lol!!

Mickeroo

TimeToShine wrote: »

I agree to some extent but as the shows goes on more and more will have to be revealed. If it is indeed the case that the show overtakes the books I would at least expect a public apology, I like the show a lot but given the choice between it and the book I'll take the latter every time (as would most book readers).

A public apology? From who? A now, the show and the book are completely separate entities and people are free to watch or not watch them as they please.

TimeToShine

Daith wrote: »

We tell book readers not to read this thread. Is that dismissing the problem for them?

Public apology for what?

Just my opinion but apologize for ruining the series by having the climax on screen. There seems to be a contingent of book readers who would gladly see the series end on TV before the books and this really confuses me, fair enough if you'd tolerate it but actively encouraging it

username123

alwald wrote: »

the surprise factor about how it's going to end and what will happen to each single character in the show.
Do you really think that HBO would like to have everything spoiled way before the release of the last season and the last episode?
The only way to create the buzz and have people/media/social media...talk about the show is by leaving all the question marks unanswered until the last few episodes of the final season.

Sure whats already been shown has been in the public domain for 15+ years and it hasnt spoiled the show.

username123

TimeToShine wrote: »

Just my opinion but apologize for ruining the series by having the climax on screen. There seems to be a contingent of book readers who would gladly see the series end on TV before the books and this really confuses me, fair enough if you'd tolerate it but actively encouraging it

How would it be ruining the series to have it end on screen? Just dont watch it on screen if you prefer to read the ending

TimeToShine

username123 wrote: »

A public apology?

Dismissive of the problem at hand?

Seriously - get a life people!! Its a STORY, a made up thing!! Choose your preferred way of accessing it, whether it be book, show or both!

Public apology - lol!!

I know it's a story, my point is that there are a lot of people who have invested way, way more time in this than you or me. It's not just about us you know, just because you and I picked up the books last year and cruised through them in the summer it doesn't mean we can stamp the series as "just a story" and tell everyone who takes it seriously to get a life.

In my view he would owe the fans an apology. I understand if you disagree.

Mickeroo

TimeToShine wrote: »

Just my opinion but apologize for ruining the series by having the climax on screen. There seems to be a contingent of book readers who would gladly see the series end on TV before the books and this really confuses me, fair enough if you'd tolerate it but actively encouraging it

I'd rather the books finished first of course but I don't feel anyone is under any obligation to make sure that happens. The show makers least of all.

alwald

TimeToShine wrote: »

Are you saying you think the books will be released after the show ends deliberately? If true that would make GRRM a complete and utter sellout. The plot has always been out there, it's up to show watchers to be careful and avoid it. Why would that suddenly change?

It's done deliberately yes, it will suddenly change because when GRRM started releasing his books there was no show, 4 years ago HBO started with the show and it's one of the most watched shows right now, expectations are very very high especially with a 9.5 rating in IMDB, it's only logical that HBO would prefer to reveal the ending in the show rather than having everything revealed in the books before the show ends.....it's just business.

username123

TimeToShine wrote: »

I know it's a story, my point is that there are a lot of people who have invested way, way more time in this than you or me. It's not just about us you know, just because you and I picked up the books last year and cruised through them in the summer it doesn't mean we can stamp the series as "just a story" and tell everyone who takes it seriously to get a life.

In my view he would owe the fans an apology. I understand if you disagree.

I didnt only pick up the books last year. Ive been a fan for years. I still dont get the outrage.

TimeToShine

username123 wrote: »

How would it be ruining the series to have it end on screen? Just dont watch it on screen if you prefer to read the ending

You know that's impossible. The show is all over the internet, social media, talked about at college/work hell it's even in the morning papers these days. Once it airs on screen you'll know exactly what happens within days whether you like it or not unless you want to be a recluse for the rest of your life.

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

Just my opinion but apologize for ruining the series by having the climax on screen. There seems to be a contingent of book readers who would gladly see the series end on TV before the books and this really confuses me, fair enough if you'd tolerate it but actively encouraging it

So far it's spoiled
Jon knowing Bran is alive
Jeyne Westerling not important
Olenna Tyrell being confirmed as the killer.
One of the Night Walkers has a crown

The climax of the show?

TimeToShine

username123 wrote: »

I didnt only pick up the books last year. Ive been a fan for years. I still dont get the outrage.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that you did I was just giving an example.

Mr Freeze

TimeToShine wrote: »

In my view he would owe the fans an apology. I understand if you disagree.

He doesn't owe us anything, and he has no (or very little) control over what HBO do with his material.

I'm sure they allow him some things like having renaming Locke as he was nothing like Vargo Hoat and he was a completely new character according to GRRM, but I'd say when it comes to things like amount of seasons and finishing the show before the books, HBO is going to fire ahead, GRRM be damned.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

So far it's spoiled
Jon knowing Bran is alive
Jeyne Westerling not important
Olenna Tyrell being confirmed as the killer.
One of the Night Walkers has a crown

All those are fairly minor in fairness. I thought the Olenna Tyrell thing was obvious anyways in the books.

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

All those are fairly minor in fairness. I thought the Olenna Tyrell thing was obvious anyways in the books.

Yep all fairly minor but hey we are owed an apology apparently. Or soon.

Mickeroo

alwald wrote: »

It's done deliberately yes, it will suddenly change because when GRRM started releasing his books there was no show, 4 years ago HBO started with the show and it's one of the most watched shows right now, expectations are very very high especially with a 9.5 rating in IMDB, it's only logical that HBO would prefer to reveal the ending in the show rather than having everything revealed in the books before the show ends.....it's just business.

When a studio buys the filming rights to a book they have no say over how the author goes about making sequels to that piece of work or anything. What you're suggesting would have been unprecedented as fas I know and also required HBO to know the series would turn out as popular as it is.

username123

TimeToShine wrote: »

You know that's impossible. The show is all over the internet, social media, talked about at college/work hell it's even in the morning papers these days. Once it airs on screen you'll know exactly what happens within days whether you like it or not unless you want to be a recluse for the rest of your life.

My hubby isnt a book reader and he has so far managed to avoid anything about it before he gets to watch it. I havent really heard it being talked about in real life anywhere. Maybe I dont know many people with sky packages! It genuinely hasnt crossed my social media much either, although Im not much of a social media user.

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

Yep all fairly minor but hey we are owed an apology apparently. Or soon.

Wait till the books and show have different endings. Thats gonna be fun, and is a possibility.

Tom.D.BJJ

Mr Freeze wrote: »

He doesn't owe us anything

He certainly doesn't owe anyone an apology :pac:

He does owe us a few books to finish to series though

Mickeroo

username123 wrote: »

My hubby isnt a book reader and he has so far managed to avoid anything about it before he gets to watch it. I havent really heard it being talked about in real life anywhere. Maybe I dont know many people with sky packages! It genuinely hasnt crossed my social media much either, although Im not much of a social media user.

I haven't watched the Sopranos yet and I still know nothing about how it ends.

TimeToShine

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'd rather the books finished first of course but I don't feel anyone is under any obligation to make sure that happens. The show makers least of all.

I suppose this is where we fundamentally differ, I am of the opinion that he, to some extent, is obliged to finish what he started for the sake of his fans. I realize he's at a point in his life where he wants to spend time with his loved ones and doing what he enjoys and I understand if that isn't writing. Still, I do think there is a weight of expectation on his shoulders that he should fulfill. How would you feel if he were to pass away before the end and insisted that nobody finish the written story?

Mr Freeze wrote: »

He doesn't owe us anything, and he has no (or very little) control over what HBO do with his material.

I'm sure they allow him some things like having renaming Locke as he was nothing like Vargo Hoat and he was a completely new character according to GRRM, but I'd say when it comes to things like amount of seasons and finishing the show before the books, HBO is going to fire ahead, GRRM be damned.

That's his fault for handing over so much control but I suppose business is business and money talks. That's why all I would expect from him is a humble apology, no more. Just a little something to ease the blow, words are wind and all that.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

He does owe us a few books to finish to series though

No he doesn't.

TimeToShine wrote: »

I suppose this is where we fundamentally differ, I am of the opinion that he, to some extent, is obliged to finish what he started for the sake of his fans. I realize he's at a point in his life where he wants to spend time with his loved ones and doing what he enjoys and I understand if that isn't writing. Still, I do think there is a weight of expectation on his shoulders that he should fulfill. How would you feel if he were to pass away before the end and insisted that nobody finish the written story?

You make it seem like writing a book is easy.

Mr Freeze

Mickeroo wrote: »

I haven't watched the Sopranos yet and I still know nothing about how it ends.

Well all I have to say is....

I haven't watched it either

Mickeroo

TimeToShine wrote: »

I suppose this is where we fundamentally differ, I am of the opinion that he, to some extent, is obliged to finish what he started for the sake of his fans. I realize he's at a point in his life where he wants to spend time with his loved ones and doing what he enjoys and I understand if that isn't writing. Still, I do think there is a weight of expectation on his shoulders that he should fulfill. How would you feel if he were to pass away before the end and insisted that nobody finish the written story?

It would suck but I'd be delighted that the show exists so I still get to see how it all ends.

TimeToShine

Daith wrote: »

Yep all fairly minor but hey we are owed an apology apparently. Or soon.

I never said that, I said he should apologize if the show finishes the series before the books.

username123

Mickeroo wrote: »

I haven't watched the Sopranos yet and I still know nothing about how it ends.

I havent watched that either and dont know either. Or Dexter. Or any other shows actually. If youre not actively watching something you dont pay attention to conversations about it.

I remember before I started watching Love/Hate I overheard quite a big spoiler being talked about in the gym, but because I didnt watch it, I didnt know any of the characters names, what the plot lines were etc... I only realised AFTER Id watched it myself that Id heard it being talked about.

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

I never said that, I said he should apologize if the show finishes the series before the books.

No he shouldn't.

Tom.D.BJJ

Daith wrote: »

No he doesn't..

Yes, he does. Why dont you think he owes those who ahve bought his books a conclusion to the series?

alwald

Mickeroo wrote: »

When a studio buys the filming rights to a book they have no say over how the author goes about making sequels to that piece of work or anything. What you're suggesting would have been unprecedented as fas I know and also required HBO to know the series would turn out as popular as it is.

I never said that HBO will influence/control/change the sequel of the books, I am just saying that HBO would prefer to reveal the ending before the last book(s) are released, GRRM is the only person who controls how the books are written.

HBO surely knew that the Series would be very very popular after the Second season, the popularity then was huge, it was rated 9.8 in IMDB which is extremely high IMO.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Yes, he does

Why? Is he forcing anyone here to watch the show? No.

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Why dont you think he owes those who ahve bought his books a conclusion to the series?

Because buying one of his books doesn't mean he's required to do anything else.

TimeToShine

Daith wrote: »

No he doesn't.


You make it seem like writing a book is easy.

Attacking the posters intelligence is always fun. It's not easy at all. In my opinion though the shows should be a bit of a kick in the arse to get going as opposed to just writing at the pace he would normally write. Forget about us for a minute, as an author do you not think he would feel obliged to finish the books just to do his series justice? I mean he is a writer after all, if your legacy being "spoiled" by the medium that is basically putting writers worldwide out of business* then I don't know what is.

*Yeah I realize this isn't true, don't attack me based on that.

Mickeroo wrote: »

I haven't watched the Sopranos yet and I still know nothing about how it ends.

Completely different kettle of fish. I had someone tell me how The Shield ended and it meant nothing to me because I wasn't invested in the characters and I didn't know who anyone was. Also it's conceptually a completely different show and the ending wouldn't serve to tie up every single plotline as that of ASOIAF would.

username123 wrote: »

My hubby isnt a book reader and he has so far managed to avoid anything about it before he gets to watch it. I havent really heard it being talked about in real life anywhere. Maybe I dont know many people with sky packages! It genuinely hasnt crossed my social media much either, although Im not much of a social media user.

I can't speak for everyone but for my age demographic the show is absolutely huge. As for the papers I remember last summer that cheap free rag the metro herald spoiled the RW on their cover page and a few fellas I worked with weren't too happy. The show is pretty much everywhere whether we like it or not.

ibarelycare

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

Yes, he does. Why dont you think he owes those who ahve bought his books a conclusion to the series?

You're not being forced to watch the show. Don't watch it until the books are all released if you don't want it spoiled.

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

Attacking the posters intelligence is always fun. It's not easy at all. In my opinion though the shows should be a bit of a kick in the arse to get going as opposed to just writing at the pace he would normally write. Forget about us for a minute, as an author do you not think he would feel obliged to finish the books just to do his series justice? I mean he is a writer after all, if your legacy being "spoiled" by the medium that is basically putting writers worldwide out of business* then I don't know what is.

*Yeah I realize this isn't true, don't attack me based on that.

He owes you SFA. I'm not attacking anyone's intelligence but you have never signed a contract with GRRM for him to finish his story ok?

You do seem to think he can write a book whenever though. Lets just ramp up the pace now?

Sleepy

This seems appropriate here: http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html

Tom.D.BJJ

ibarelycare wrote: »

You're not being forced to watch the show. Don't watch it until the books are all released if you don't want it spoiled.

What? When did i say anything about being spoiled?

ibarelycare

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

What? When did i say anything about being spoiled?

Sorry, I actually totally misread what you were saying as I was skimming through the posts when I was on a call...continue

Tom.D.BJJ

Daith wrote: »

Because buying one of his books doesn't mean he's required to do anything else.

It's not about buying one book though, it's about buying into a series of books which he hasn't finish yet. He owes the readers a conclusion to the book series. The "he doesn't owe us anything" line is bull****.

Daith

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

It's not about buying one book though, it's about buying into a series of books which he hasn't finish yet. He owes the readers a conclusion to the book series. The "he doesn't owe us anything" line is bull****.

He does not. Sorry, I know it's hard to hear but you and the rest of the book readers are not owed anything.

TimeToShine

Daith wrote: »

He owes you SFA. I'm not attacking anyone's intelligence but you have never signed a contract with GRRM for him to finish his story ok?

You do seem to think he can write a book whenever though. Lets just ramp up the pace now?

WTF, it's not a legal matter ffs. It's a matter of integrity. You think simple apology for stringing people along for years (or in some cases decades) is "entitlement" on behalf of the fans? It is a complete reflection of him as an author and his passion for writing. As for writing a book, I cannot believe you're defending his slow writing speed. It's widely known that he is a slow writer, there is no defending that.

I'm not arsed discussing this anymore tbh as it's not relevant. You're just going round in circles trying to make it out that I'm an entitled child pouting for my apology even though I clearly said he owes it to a small fraction of fans as opposed to us. Whether or not he delivers is completely up to him and reflects as such.

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

I'm not arsed discussing this anymore tbh as it's not relevant. You're just going round in circles trying to make it out that I'm an entitled child pouting for my apology even though I clearly said he owes it to a small fraction of fans as opposed to us.

He doesn't owe anybody anything. Sorry. He wrote books, people bought books that's it.

TimeToShine wrote: »

I cannot believe you're defending his slow writing speed. It's widely known that he is a slow writer, there is no defending that.

I am. He's not required to write anymore books. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't though.

Mickeroo

Tom.D.BJJ wrote: »

It's not about buying one book though, it's about buying into a series of books which he hasn't finish yet. He owes the readers a conclusion to the book series. The "he doesn't owe us anything" line is bull****.

He's actually writing that conclusion the last time I checked though so you can stop worrying. We should have it in about 4 or 5 years I reckon. :pac:

Daith

Mickeroo wrote: »

He's actually writing that conclusion the last time I checked though so you can stop worrying. We should have it in about 4 or 5 years I reckon. :pac:

2 years if you watch the show!

Mr.Prodston

Seeing as I was one of the first to complain yesterday and that I've had time to think here's where I'm at now:

- I'm glad they're giving Bran more story to work with and him running into the mutineers is a good and interesting jeopardy position. The problem is that Sam told Jon that Bran was alive and north of the wall. If they go down that route which I don't like in the first place then surely that warranted a scene of it's own. It shouldn't have happened off camera, especially at the expense of Gilly and Moletown.

However that's what happened. Why they think they'd go and seek out wildling residences, namely Crasters is quite a leap. I still think that Jon and Bran won't meet, if they do then I guess we'd have to see it play out but it wouldn't sit well at all as of now. I'd expect Coldhands to swoop in as Bran et al escape moments before Jon arrives or something like that. The scene with Karl was certainly interesting and I think I read somewhere that the Dans toned down that scene drastically so ho knows what was actually filmed or originally planned!

- Moving onto the WW/Others. It is a spoiler and it isn't. I think almost anyone who has read the books and take place in debates like this assumed they did take the children and turn them but seeing it happen on screen almost out of nowhere certainly took me by surprise. That surprise resulted in confusion, excitement, bewilderment and anger at the same time. Of everything going forward it's Bran's story and the Others that interests me the most so that tease has just whetted my appetite while knowing the next book is still nowhere to be seen. It was the most interesting scene as I said since I read the books after season 2. We won't see anymore I'd expect this season either. HBO initially confirming on their synopsis that he was indeed the

Night's King

was a screw up that certainly should not have happened whatever about creative license in the shows changes.

- Dany: I really don't care or remember :pac: It's showing now how much I glossed over those chapters as I remember very little of the actual details. It does seem to be happening awfully fast and she does come across better in the show.

TimeToShine

Daith wrote: »

He doesn't owe anybody anything. Sorry. He wrote books, people bought books that's it.

Dude your logic is completely correct but there's no appreciation for the middle ground. If a fella in front of you drops his wallet do you "owe" it to him to pick it up and hand it to him? Not at all, but you'll do it anyway because you have at least shred of decency and integrity. Using your argument to refute why GRRM won't apologize to the fans will not work. It's not a technical matter of "owing" anybody anything, it's just common courtesy.

Tom.D.BJJ

Daith wrote: »

He doesn't owe anybody anything. Sorry. He wrote books, people bought books that's it.

I am. He's not required to write anymore books. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't though.

Nice try George. Now get back to work!! :pac:

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

Dude your logic is completely correct but there's no appreciation for the middle ground. If a fella in front of you drops his wallet do you "owe" it to him to pick it up and hand it to him? Not at all, but you'll do it anyway because you have at least shred of decency and integrity. Using your argument to refute why GRRM won't apologize to the fans will not work. It's not a technical matter of "owing" anybody anything, it's just common courtesy.

Oh FFS. So GRRM not finishing his books (possibly) means he doesn't have decency, integrity or common courtesy?

You do seem to think that writing books is easy.

He owes you nothing Jon Snow. I'm sure you'll be a lot happier when you realize this.

alwald

GRRM owes us an apology, yes, there I said it, an apology for injecting some ASOIAF drug into our lifes, an apology for writing one of the best books with an entire new world, new history....an apology for adding some excitement to our lifes.

Noopti

Public apology.... :rolleyes:

TimeToShine

Daith wrote: »

Oh FFS. So GRRM not finishing his books (possibly) means he doesn't have decency, integrity or common courtesy?

You do seem to think that writing books is easy.

He owes you nothing Jon Snow. I'm sure you'll be a lot happier when you realize this.

No. Failing to finish them (unless there are serious unforeseen personal circumstances) and then subsequently having them spoiled on TV and then not apologizing in some way to the book readers however I would constitute as bad form. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. You defending his slow writing is inexcusable really, he is definitely in the top 5% slowest going so your "you think writing books is easy" argument really flops spectacularly. It is an established fact that he is slow, so we are allowed to hope that he picks up the pace.

Daith

TimeToShine wrote: »

No. Failing to finish them (unless there are serious unforeseen personal circumstances) and then subsequently having them spoiled on TV and then not apologizing in some way to the book readers however I would constitute as bad form. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. You defending his slow writing is inexcusable really, he is definitely in the top 5% slowest going so your "you think writing books is easy" argument really flops spectacularly. It is an established fact that he is slow, so we are allowed to hope that he picks up the pace.

Sorry what a load of rubbish. Defending his slow writing because the TV show should force him to write faster? He'll write the books when he ****ing writes the books not because of a TV show or someone on the internet thinks he should.

You sense of entitlement is unreal. You can hope he picks up the pace but shouldn't expect it.