Season 4 Episode 4 "Oathkeeper": *HAVE* read the books

That was a dark episode, darkest in a while in my opinion. The actor who is playing the chief mutineer at Craster's is absolutely nailing it. A lot of uproar about the episode dwells on the rape and beating of Craster's wives/daughters with many saying it is highly unnecessary. My own view is that since it has caused such controversy, that's the job done. And I don't mean in a 'It got people talking' sort of way, it was necessary and successful in that it builds on the sympathy for these helpless victims, and the hate for their captors. When Jon Snow/Coldhands/whoever rolls into Craster's to put these horrific characters to the sword, the payoff will be so much sweeter because they were complete c**ts.

The imagery which actually made me a little uneasy was the opening shot at Craster's, where we see the chief mutineer sitting content, drinking from the skull of Jeor Morment, a strong and popular character who got shafted in the manor of his death and deserved better. Now in death, he cannot even rest in peace.

That and the baby left out in the snow alone, never an easy image no matter how much fun he will now have in his new life as a WW!

Speaking of which, I had no problems with that last scene. As the lone WW rid across the snowy landscape on the horse with the baby, I had a feeling we were in for something grand and I was genuinely 'WTF?' in a good way by the time the credits rolled.

So far in the show, the WWs have been portrayed mainly like zombies who just trod along a bit aimlessly. Now we have been shown a glimpse at an 'inner circle' that suggests structure and organisation within the WWs, that raises the terror a fair bit for me. If Nan's tales about the Night's King bear some sort of truth, what other tales of hers could come to life in the story?

Ideally I'd love if George Martin finished this story with the books, but I do need to see a conclusion to this story in one way or another. I reckon with the way the show is going, we'll be well used to seeing things from post-ADWD by the end of season 5, definitely in regards to a few characters anyway.

A glimpse at the Night's King and the fate of Craster's offered sons is only the beginning of book-reader meltdowns. There is no way IMO that Martin will have the remaining books written and story concluded within the next 6-8 years, so the TV show completely overtaking the books is an inevitability which will come to fruition in the next 2-3 years. I'd love to think that we'd at least have TWOW by the time that happens but Martin seems to be doing everything but finish that book, which is his choice to make...unfortunately!

RobbingBandit

What I don't get about the scene with the baby is how is that relevant, do the babies grow up to be Wights/how can they if they are dead/been turned. Is this going to be an army of crawling blue eyed babies. Or was this to show how easy it is for the Night King to turn a human into a wight?

Peregrine

The baby being left out made me a little uneasy as well.

But for me, the most disturbing scene of that episode was Hodor getting attacked and mocked

RobbingBandit

How they had him chained up was terrible. Seems strange that HBO and the writers have gone with this storyline yet the Dornish prince, the sacking of the city and other important arcs will be cut or totally abandoned.

Mickeroo

Wights are reanimated dead bodies, the baby was still alive. Safe to say it will grow up to be a walker like the one that carried it there, "craster's sons".

Mr Freeze

RobbingBandit wrote: »

How they had him chained up was terrible. Seems strange that HBO and the writers have gone with this storyline yet the Dornish prince, the sacking of the city and other important arcs will be cut or totally abandoned.

I'd say they will cast a few of the Dornish characters for next season...

They will need to fill the gap left by the end of this season, a good few characters will be gone.

Mickeroo wrote: »

Wights are reanimated dead bodies, the baby was still alive. Safe to say it will grow up to be a walker like the one that carried it there, "craster's sons".

Or you don't have to be dead to turned into a Wight? Living or Dead, one touches you that's it!

I assumed that they just turned the baby into a wight, effectively killing it. But it seems more likely that it is a WW.

Daith

Mr Freeze wrote: »

I'd say they will cast a few of the Dornish characters for next season...

Next season is going to be interesting. A lot of fan fav characters don't really appear right? Especially with the deaths on the way.

I wonder how the non book readers will take to Dorne. I think they'll view it as padding because it's not really connected to the "main" story. Likewise with Dany and Meereen.

username123

Daith wrote: »

Next season is going to be interesting. A lot of fan fav characters don't really appear right? Especially with the deaths on the way.

I dont know what you mean by this? Has there been some announcement about fan favourites not appearing?

Mr Freeze

Daith wrote: »

I wonder how the non book readers will take to Dorne. I think they'll view it as padding because it's not really connected to the "main" story. Likewise with Dany and Meereen.

They might connect Dorne and new Iron Islands characters with Dany straight away, and have them travelling there.

I'd say their plots will be really watered down.

Mr Freeze

username123 wrote: »

I dont know what you mean by this? Has there been some announcement about fan favourites not appearing?

Tywin, The Hound, Ygritte, (Obyeron too if he becomes a new fan favourite) all likeable characters to an extent, if they stick to the books we won't be seeing them next season.

Mickeroo

username123 wrote: »

I dont know what you mean by this? Has there been some announcement about fan favourites not appearing?

I'd say they're coming from how the book were done, splitting it in half. I don't think the show will go that way though, well see events and characters from both books I reckon.

username123

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Tywin, The Hound, Ygritte, (Obyeron too if he becomes a new fan favourite) all likeable characters to an extent, if they stick to the books we won't be seeing them next season.

Oh I see what you mean, I read the post as "book fan favourites" as opposed to "show fan favourites".

Mickeroo

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Tywin, The Hound, Ygritte, (Obyeron too if he becomes a new fan favourite) all likeable characters to an extent, if they stick to the books we won't be seeing them next season.

Yeah that makes more sense than what I was saying alright.

Luft Ballon

Daith wrote: »

To be honest what I find more annoying is the mindset of "What do you mean he's going to a convention, shouldn't he you know be writing".

I don't think people mind him going to conventions. What annoys people is that he doesn't seem to be writing the books at all, he's going to conventions, working with HBO, releasing other books or writing blog posts. Basically anything other than finishing the series, and all that combined annoys people who've invested in the series, rather than individual conventions he may attend

Daith

Luft Ballon wrote: »

Basically anything other than finishing the series, and all that combined annoys people who've invested in the series, rather than individual conventions he may attend

The thing for me is that I don't think I've "invested in a series". Invested implies I've spent money and expect something in return. I've spent money and got each book in return.

I do want the series finished but if GRRM wants to do nothing for weeks or months and scratch his arse then it's up to him. It's not a Kickstarter campaign.

Luft Ballon

Daith wrote: »

The thing for me is that I don't think I've "invested in a series". Invested implies I've spent money and expect something in return. I've spent money and got each book in return.

I do want the series finished but if GRRM wants to do nothing for weeks or months and scratch his arse then it's up to him. It's not a Kickstarter campaign.

Obviously he can do what he likes, but that doesn't change the fact that doing nothing or not finishing the series will annoy fans.

Daith

Luft Ballon wrote: »

Obviously he can do what he likes, but that doesn't change the fact that doing nothing or not finishing the series will annoy fans.

Yeah I get the annoyed part but not the "I've invested in a series" or "GRRM owes us".

But hey the TV show is going to wrap up everything anyway :P

Luft Ballon

Daith wrote: »

Yeah I get the annoyed part but not the "I've invested in a series" or "GRRM owes us".

But hey the TV show is going to wrap up everything anyway :P

But there is investment in a series, emotionally. The fans that bought his books and bought into his series can reasonably expect that he finish the series and not abandon it because he made money (not saying he's doing that, I think he's just stuck). He doesn't HAVE to do it, he can do what he likes, but it'd be the decent thing to do as an author.

Daith

Luft Ballon wrote: »

But there is investment in a series, emotionally. The fans that bought his books and bought into his series can reasonably expect that he finish the series and not abandon it because he made money (not saying he's doing that, I think he's just stuck). He doesn't HAVE to do it, he can do what he likes, but it'd be the decent thing to do as an author.

We are going to go around in circles so I'll stop on this topic after this

I don't think it's as simple as GRRM sitting down and finishing his books. He's a slow writer. Everyone know this. The fact that he's at a convention or on holiday or supervising a dinner scene on the show doesn't mean that the time "lost" there would have turned into letters in his book. There's a gap of six years between A Feast for Crows and a Dance with Dragons. Six years! Five years between A Storm of Swords and A Feat for Crows. Trying being a book reader then and not even having a TV show to look forward to.

As I said I want to see an end to the series but I personally don't think GRRM has any obligation to do so.

OH MY SWEET SUMMER CHILD. WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF WAITING? WAITING IS FOR THE LONG NIGHT, WHEN GRRM HIDES FOR YEARS AND CHILDREN ARE BORN AND LIVE AND DIE ALL BEFORE THE NEXT BOOK COMES OUT.

December2012

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html?m=1


"George RR Martin is not your bit ch" - Neil Gaiman

FunLover18

December2012 wrote: »

http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2009/05/entitlement-issues.html?m=1


"George RR Martin is not your bit ch" - Neil Gaiman

I've been thinking for ages how best to respond to the claims that Martin somehow owes his readers and the whole "invested in the series" and Gaiman absolutely nailed. Guess that's he's the writer.

At the end of the day nobody has invested as much into this series as Martin and if he wants to take some time to do conventions and meet his fans then let him. He owes me nothing; if anything I owe him for the hours of entertainment and discussion he has provided me with.

celica00

Daith wrote: »

Yeah I get the annoyed part but not the "I've invested in a series" or "GRRM owes us".

But hey the TV show is going to wrap up everything anyway :P

well, unless there is stocks ha

celica00

It is not our business anyway...and how knows, maybe he needs all the conventions etc in order to get inspired. We never know...
However, it's still his choice, we shouldn't really think about it anyway.
Of course it can be annoying if you are not patient, but just reread the books..that's what I am doing.

As well...good things take a while

December2012

FunLover18 wrote: »

I've been thinking for ages how best to respond to the claims that Martin somehow owes his readers and the whole "invested in the series" and Gaiman absolutely nailed. Guess that's he's the writer.

At the end of the day nobody has invested as much into this series as Martin and if he wants to take some time to do conventions and meet his fans then let him. He owes me nothing; if anything I owe him for the hours of entertainment and discussion he has provided me with.

Exactly. Other artists are not under obligations to their fans so he is no different.

Washington Irving

Haven't seen this posted anywhere. Doesn't exactly answer much, but might be of interest.

George RR Martin wrote:

If something happens on the show before it happens in the book, I suppose one could call that a spoiler.

If something happens on the show, but happens very differently in the books, is that still a spoiler?

If something happens on the show, but never happens in books, what precisely was spoiled?

And how many children did Scarlett O'Hara have, anyway?

http://grrm.livejournal.com/368755.html?thread=19056755#t19056755