Season 4; Episode 4: 'Oathkeeper'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

Witcher

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

It's not George RR Martin's story though, so I don't know why that's being used to defend it. The rape stuff doesn't happen in the books. It is definitely HBO including it for the sake if being provocative.

Rape doesn't happen in ASOIAF?:pac:

irishejit

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

It's not George RR Martin's story though, so I don't know why that's being used to defend it. The rape stuff doesn't happen in the books. It is definitely HBO including it for the sake if being provocative.

Thats not really true, Martin is heavily involved in the series...If memory serves me right he was sole writing credit for episode 1 this season for example

Naydy

irishejit wrote: »

Thats not really true, Martin is heavily involved in the series...If memory serves me right he was sole writing credit for episode 1 this season for example

He's writes one episode a season, or so I've heard. He also publicly distanced himself from the Jaime/Cersai scene last week, so I doubt he has as much influence as people think.

celica00

Naydy wrote: »

He's writes one episode a season, or so I've heard. He also publicly distanced himself from the Jaime/Cersai scene last week, so I doubt he has as much influence as people think.

where did he do that?

SeanJ09

Where has Rickon Stark and Osha gone to? Thought they were going to the wall when they split from Bran, Hodor etc..?

Naydy

celica00 wrote: »

where did he do that?

On his blog apparently, although I read it here: http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/04/21/george-r-r-martin-thrones-rape/

The main bits (I'll put in it spoilers just in case):

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression -- but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.

Apologies for going off topic from this episode, but just to clear up what I said.

Burt Macklin

Degag wrote: »

Does the "In the books" section of that website contain future spoilers?

No, it only covers the differences between book and show that won't spoil future events. There is a an about section which describes what the wiki is:

''The Game of Thrones television series is an adaptation of the Song of Ice and Fire novels but will deviate from them in some areas. In addition this wiki is meant for the enjoyment of watchers of the television series who do not have any knowledge of the books. For this reason, spoilers and events from the books are not permitted on entries on this Wiki. Information from the books can be added to entries once the TV series has reached the same point in the story. For book-specific information, please visit the Wiki of Ice and Fire.''

J. Marston

SeanJ09 wrote: »

Where has Rickon Stark and Osha gone to? Thought they were going to the wall when they split from Bran, Hodor etc..?

I think Bran told Osha and Rickon to go the Stark's bannermen, The Umbers. He said they'll be safe there.

Open to correction on that though, I'm not 100% sure.

Noopti

The books (and the show) depict a horrific world at war. And it is a world that we also live in. Humans can be horrible creatures, and especially in times of war or opportunism they can descend into despicable levels of cruelty they they would never think of doing under "normal circumstances". I am delighted both the books and the TV don't shy away from the reality of this and try to soften it up to protect the viewers. If usually "normal" people can turn into monsters in such situations, what do you think a band of rapers and murderers in "normal" life can become? The scene in Crastor's Keep perfectly highlights this.

During wars innocents are massacred, people are raped and other horrible things happen. Just read anything about history, and you see this repeated over and over, again and again. Why should the incredibly brutal war in Westoros be any different in the shows, especially as the books don't shy away from it? Even if there are some specific new scenes in the show which aren't in the book, the fact is the book also deals in these extremes, so it fits the theme.

Many films, books, tv shows etc are there to challenge the viewer/reader and to put them into a situation where they feel certain emotions, sometimes very raw and uncomfortable emotions. I personally am glad both the books and the TV show don't take the easy option of shying away from the fact that humans are animals, and can behave in a way which brings that to the surface however uncomfortable that might make us feel.

"History is the autobiography of a mad man"

Paddy Cow

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's uncomfortable reading, but leaving babies to die of exposure was incredibly common throughout history. (Just think of how Hansel and Gretel ended up in the woods).
And in fairness to the White Walkers, they are saving these children. GO TEAM WHITE WALKERS!

Indeed, something Tyrion knows very well. Tyrion was very fortunate to be born a Lannister. Had he not, it is likely that he would have been left to die. At one stage Tyrion asks Tywin when did he ever do something that wasn't self serving and Tywin replies the day Tyrion was born. Tywin wanted to take Tyrion and put him in the sea but a sense of duty to the family name meant that he kept Tyrion and raised him as his son.

Syferus

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

It's not George RR Martin's story though, so I don't know why that's being used to defend it. The rape stuff doesn't happen in the books. It is definitely HBO including it for the sake if being provocative.

To be fair a bunch of mutinous rapists, murderers and thief aren't exactly going to be the best of masters. Makes more sense that what was shown would happen than not.

I find the White Walkers stuff the least interesting by a mile. It still feels like someone's wedging scenes from a b-level high fantasy film into my Game of Thrones.

Their storyline is moving slower than anything else in the show and the fact Scared McWorried has already handed one its ass tells us exactly what needs to be done.

lynski

It is not true to say the rapes dont happen in the books
A character is talking to two of the wives who tell him 'the blackest of the crows are with the younger wives', he looks over the balcony to see 'four brothers eating loafs on a bench while Ollo coupled with a weeping woman on the table'. it is pretty explicit.

calex71

Can we keep to book talk out of here please , BEFORE I HAVE TO START ISSUING WARNINGS ETC. :mad:

I will not mention this again in next weeks thread , it will be a straight red too all involved.