Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid (Second Leg) (Allianz Arena) KO: 7:45PM (ITV1 + TV3)

Brendan Filone

Brendan Filone wrote: »

Ronaldo hugged Roy Keane on the touchline after the game, nice to see.

Lee Dixon

Skylinehead

shrewdness wrote: »

Nothing to do with Messi imo, Ronaldo is the best in the world on merit and based on his own performances.

That's everything to do with Messi though. If he hadn't dropped off, Ronaldo wouldn't be the best.

upstairs for coffee

3 of Madrid's goals were from set pieces. Death of tika taka? No. Just no.

MD1990

Deleted User wrote: »

Ronaldo has upped the ante but Messi has been dogged with one or two injuries tbf to him also

Ronaldo got injured too this season.Messi was in a much better team for much of the last few years.Now that Barca have declined they are on a more even playing field & Ronaldo is now playing better than Messi.Don't forget when Messi was winning Ballon D'or's u had Xavi & Iniesta finishing 2nd & 3rd.

LuckyLloyd

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

3 of Madrid's goals were from set pieces. Death of tika taka? No. Just no.

Their other two were from devastating counter attacks at pace; and they ripped Bayern apart numerous other times from same during the tie. When tiki taka next wins the CL give us a shout.

kryogen

rarnes1 wrote: »

Was it you?

I couldn't remember who it was.

It wasn't a jibe btw, just thought it was a mad one to discount Ancellotti

Nope, I have already said who it was on this thread already. Don't want to be "calling him out on it" really, its his opinion which is fine.

My own opinion is that Ancelotti would be perfect for United, said that from the start, of himself, Klopp, LVG, anyone really, I would want him.

Too Tough To Die

shrewdness wrote: »

Nothing to do with Messi imo, Ronaldo is the best in the world on merit and based on his own performances.

Kinda is when he's the main competition. That's just how it is.

MD1990

The final will be a different game for Real.Atleti & Chelsea will let Real have the ball so they won't be able to counter like they did tonight.Could be a game for Isco.

kryogen

Skylinehead wrote: »

That's everything to do with Messi though. If he hadn't dropped off, Ronaldo wouldn't be the best.

Does consistency not come in to it at all then? I know Messi has had his injuries, and that is part of it too! He isnt as durable as Ronaldo, who has touch wood, been a freak of nature in terms of injury. He has played at such a high level consistently for so long now, surely has to count for something regardless of anything else.

EG If Ronaldinho had not dropped off he would be up there in the GOAT discussion but he isnt

If Ronaldo (the Brazilian) hadnt been ravaged with injury who knows how great he could have been, he was unbelievable even with his issues!

A players susceptibility to injury or whatever else has to come in to the equation, consistency at the highest level is something Ronaldo has in spades

kryogen

kryogen wrote: »

Nope, I have already said who it was on this thread already. Don't want to be "calling him out on it" really, its his opinion which is fine.

My own opinion is that Ancelotti would be perfect for United, said that from the start, of himself, Klopp, LVG, anyone really, I would want him.

Ancellotti would certainly be up there if my club was looking for a manager for me. He won't be going if he wins this though, although you never know with Madrid! Unlikely in fairness

upstairs for coffee

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Their other two were from devastating counter attacks at pace; and they ripped Bayern apart numerous other times from same during the tie. When tiki taka next wins the CL give us a shout.

I find it amazing that you are being so dismissive of Guardiola's philosophy, tactics and achievements.

Completely bizarre.

Turtwig

MD1990 wrote: »

The final will be a different game for Real.Atleti & Chelsea will let Real have the ball so they won't be able to counter like they did tonight.Could be a game for Isco.

Isco and DiMaria's time to shine. Real aren't exactly good at defending counter attacks. Ironically the best team this season that I witnessed at defending counter attacks were Barcelona. :eek: Never thought I'd be complimenting Barca in any defensive regard.

LuckyLloyd

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

I find it amazing that you are being so dismissive of Guardiola's philosophy, tactics and achievements.

Completely bizarre.

Achievements? No I am certainly not dismissing them. His style was revolutionary, as much as it wasn't to my taste. But when you take the best side in Europe who are brilliant at a style of football, and try and shoehorn them into something they are less efficient at then you have a coach operating to serve a philosophy first, and the winning of games second.

I am delighted the era of Guardiolaball is over, though I concede it was devastating while it lasted.

Skylinehead

kryogen wrote: »

Does consistency not come in to it at all then? I know Messi has had his injuries, and that is part of it too! He isnt as durable as Ronaldo, who has touch wood, been a freak of nature in terms of injury. He has played at such a high level consistently for so long now, surely has to count for something regardless of anything else.

EG If Ronaldinho had not dropped off he would be up there in the GOAT discussion but he isnt

If Ronaldo (the Brazilian) hadnt been ravaged with injury who knows how great he could have been, he was unbelievable even with his issues!

A players susceptibility to injury or whatever else has to come in to the equation, consistency at the highest level is something Ronaldo has in spades

Messi's been incredibly consistent over the last 6 years, so no, I don't think it comes into it. He's had an injury-hit year, but that's no reason to write him off. Ronaldo is clearly better now, but he's not as good as Messi's 2012.

shrewdness

Skylinehead wrote: »

That's everything to do with Messi though. If he hadn't dropped off, Ronaldo wouldn't be the best.

*sigh*, I'm not getting into this debate again. You'd swear Messi had the god-given right to the Ballon D'or every year the way some people go on. Bottom line, Ronaldo is the best right now imo and that's due to his own high performance, and Messi performing well wouldn't change that. Argue against that if you want(as I'm sure you will), but that's my opinion.

I may as well say Messi only won all those Ballon D'ors because Ronaldo wasn't performing to his ability, it's a poor argument. All that matters is the present and who is doing the business and that's clear to see. If Messi doesn't reproduce his previous highs again will his past performance be held up to argue he is still the best?

Chucky the tree

Messi

La Liga - 28apps, 27 goals
Copa Del Dey - 6apps, 5 goals
Champions league - 7 apps, 8 goals

Season - 43apps, 40 goals.


Not to bad for a "down" season really where he's "dropped off".

Too Tough To Die

shrewdness wrote: »

*sigh*, I'm not getting into this debate again. You'd swear Messi had the god-given right to the Ballon D'or every year the way some people go on. Bottom line, Ronaldo is the best right now imo and that's due to his own high performance, and Messi performing well wouldn't change that. Argue against that if you want(as I'm sure you will), but that's my opinion.

I may as well say Messi only won all those Ballon D'ors because Ronaldo wasn't performing to his ability, it's a poor argument. All that matters is the present and who is doing the business and that's clear to see. If Messi doesn't reproduce his previous highs again will his past performance be held up to argue he is still the best?

I think the point is, Ronaldo has not surpassed the performances of Messi over the last few seasons. While he has passed Messi out as the best in the world over the last year or so, he has certainly not raised the bar.

MD1990

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Messi

La Liga - 28apps, 27 goals
Copa Del Dey - 6apps, 5 goals
Champions league - 7 apps, 8 goals

Season - 43apps, 40 goals.


Not to bad for a "down" season really where he's "dropped off".

0 in 6 Vs Atletico though & only covered 6.8km in the 2nd leg.
He also is just walking in games & not making the runs like he used to do.

Mushy

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

I think the point is, Ronaldo has not surpassed the performances of Messi over the last few seasons. While he has passed Messi out as the best in the world over the last year or so, he has certainly not raised the bar.

While I agree with this, in the CL he has certainly raised the bar.

Also, it'd be scary if he was raising the bar in all areas, that's how high it has gotten.

Turtwig

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Messi

La Liga - 28apps, 27 goals
Copa Del Dey - 6apps, 5 goals
Champions league - 7 apps, 8 goals

Season - 43apps, 40 goals.


Not to bad for a "down" season really where he's "dropped off".

He's blowing hot and cold and even though he's scoring goals Barca this season have been more coherent with him out of their side. Says a lot. He makes the team far too predictable and he's been far far too static. Last season he only covered 6 or so km against Bayern. The same again this season against Atletico.

Chucky the tree

MD1990 wrote: »

0 in 6 Vs Atletico though & only covered 6.8km in the 2nd leg.
He also is just walking in games & not making the runs like he used to do.

Turtwig wrote: »

He's blowing hot and cold and even though he's scoring goals Barca this season have been more coherent with him out of their side. Says a lot. He makes the team far too predictable and he's been far far too static. Last season he only covered 6 or so km against Bayern. The same again this season against Atletico.

Maybe that's due to his injury? Not many teams are going to play better by dropping a guy who scorers a goal pretty much ever game.

JP Liz V1

Bayern Munich didn't even put up a fight

Idbatterim

We will now get all the ancelloti is fantastic etc etc, but I'm wondering how true it is. Was it not more Bayern being brutal? Brutal in defence and in creating any clear cut chances? When you defend that bad and will constantly give the likes of Real the chance to counter with world class attacking players, it might not be the best idea. they came out all guns blazing, knowing if Real scored, they would need to score 3 and not concede any more. they were 1 goal down, not 3 or 4...

I mean they made an absolute meal of it against united until united scored and had a momentary lapse in concentration, the first in what? 150 minutes?

Turtwig

JP Liz V1 wrote: »

Bayern Munich didn't even put up a fight

Their lack of backbone was fairly shocking.

Turtwig

Idbatterim wrote: »

We will now get all the ancelloti is fantastic etc etc, but I'm wondering how trye it is. Was it not more Bayern being brutal? Brutal in defence and in creating any clear cut chances? When you defend that bad and will constantly give the likes of Real the chance to counter with world class attacking players, it might not be the best idea. the came out all guns blazing, knowing if Real scored, they would need to score 3 and not concede any more. they were 1 goal down, not 3 or 4...

Bayern were bad in defence but Ancellotti's Madrid have been excellent this season. For a period in La Liga their defence was impenetrable. Then it fell apart, now it seems to be repaired at the seams again. Carlo, wherever he goes, produces an unified team that provides a match for any opposition. That's all you can expect really.

Too Tough To Die

Turtwig wrote: »

Their lack of backbone was fairly shocking.

This generation of German players lack bottle.

MisterAnarchy

Turtwig wrote: »

Their lack of backbone was fairly shocking.

I've always thought there was a question mark about the Bayern squads amount of spirit/lack of bottle over the last few years.

As I expected the deficiencies in the Bayern defence highlighted in the Utd tie were brutally exposed by Real's pace over both legs.

user2011

Everyone except the house wants the house to be beaten I'm a happy football fan.

There is something beautiful about the CL, with no team winning it two years running continuing.

Bayern showed sweet f all over the two legs against a team that is not regarded as a good defending team. Sickened for Xabi it was a tackle that didn't need to be made but yeah it was it is.

Madrid derby please, but head says Chelsea/Madrid final.

DenMan

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

This generation of German players lack bottle.

Bottle empty!

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Achievements? No I am certainly not dismissing them. His style was revolutionary, as much as it wasn't to my taste. But when you take the best side in Europe who are brilliant at a style of football, and try and shoehorn them into something they are less efficient at then you have a coach operating to serve a philosophy first, and the winning of games second.

I am delighted the era of Guardiolaball is over, though I concede it was devastating while it lasted.

Individual players dictate styles and not tactics though or that's apparently what Cruyff always believed. I agree with you on the shoehorning. You cant fit a square peg into a round hole. From that point of view you are 100% right. I think though it would be easier to implement this style of play in some countries more than others. Germany have always believed in counter attacking as do Italy whereas Spain, France and Portugal have advocated possession football

klose

Jupps 4231 last season was devastaingly brilliant, effective and balanced and it suited every player perfectly, it really could have been a building block for a period of domination but pep has thrown it out the window and are starting again in essence. Id be interested to see what genuine munich fans think of peps system and would they have rathered jupps system.

Idbatterim

This generation of German players lack bottle.

based on what? I'm not disagreeing, just interested in your opinion? I mean I know the absolutely blew it against Chelsea a few years ago and the national team lost by a goal to Spain in world cup semi final 2010 (when the team was very young in fairness) and in 2012 by a single goal again in the semi's to Italy...

I'm half German, so follow the national team, as unfortunately I cant be shouting Ireland on this time round, really interested now to see how they perform under Loew... They seem to very much flatter to deceive, able to demolish the weaker teams or even the big ones when they score first, but havent shown much character or bottle I suppose when behind...

Skylinehead

shrewdness wrote: »

*sigh*, I'm not getting into this debate again. You'd swear Messi had the god-given right to the Ballon D'or every year the way some people go on. Bottom line, Ronaldo is the best right now imo and that's due to his own high performance, and Messi performing well wouldn't change that. Argue against that if you want(as I'm sure you will), but that's my opinion.

I may as well say Messi only won all those Ballon D'ors because Ronaldo wasn't performing to his ability, it's a poor argument. All that matters is the present and who is doing the business and that's clear to see. If Messi doesn't reproduce his previous highs again will his past performance be held up to argue he is still the best?

If you could read, you'd notice I said that Ronaldo is better than him now.

MisterAnarchy

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

I find it amazing that you are being so dismissive of Guardiola's philosophy, tactics and achievements.

Completely bizarre.

I think he'd prefer to watch the **** on a stick philosophy and tactics tomorrow night

bucketybuck

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

I think the point is, Ronaldo has not surpassed the performances of Messi over the last few seasons. While he has passed Messi out as the best in the world over the last year or so, he has certainly not raised the bar.

How is breaking the CL goal scoring record not surpassing or raising the bar?

He scored more than anybody ever has in the CL in one season, including Messi, thats almost the definition of surpassing.

user2011

bucketybuck wrote: »

How is breaking the CL goal scoring record not surpassing or raising the bar?

He scored more than anybody ever has in the CL in one season, including Messi, thats almost the definition of surpassing.

With competing against Messi it is all about the strangling type of football everyone has been served up, Ronaldo's game is not based on this and is easily overlooked imo.

They are two of the greatest but for me, like you I would pick Ronaldo everytime over Messi.

Too Tough To Die

bucketybuck wrote: »

How is breaking the CL goal scoring record not surpassing or raising the bar?

He scored more than anybody ever has in the CL in one season, including Messi, thats almost the definition of surpassing.

In terms of goal scoring, yes. In terms of being the best player in the world, no.

shrewdness

Skylinehead wrote: »

If you could read, you'd notice I said that Ronaldo is better than him now.

I can read quite well, thank you, but I was replying to more than just your comment at the time, I just quoted yours as it was the first I seen.

But thanks for the sarcasm, I love a bit of that.

shrewdness

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

In terms of goal scoring, yes. In terms of being the best player in the world, no.

I thought you said earlier that Ronaldo has eclipsed Messi as the best in the world over the last year, which is it?

bucketybuck

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

In terms of goal scoring, yes. In terms of being the best player in the world, no.

Basically then, it doesn't matter what Ronaldo does because you think Messi is just better.

Turtwig

If this is a thread about the world's best player then you can forget Ronaldo and Messi. It's Seamus Coleman.

If this is a thread about the Bayern game. Then I do have to wonder how up for it Pep actually was. Wonder if Bayern should have given him a few days off on the weekend for a game that didn't really matter.

Too Tough To Die

bucketybuck wrote: »

Basically then, it doesn't matter what Ronaldo does because you think Messi is just better.

No i watch football matches and decide what person is the best at playing football based on what i see. It's that simple.

dfx-

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Achievements? No I am certainly not dismissing them. His style was revolutionary, as much as it wasn't to my taste. But when you take the best side in Europe who are brilliant at a style of football, and try and shoehorn them into something they are less efficient at then you have a coach operating to serve a philosophy first, and the winning of games second.

I am delighted the era of Guardiolaball is over, though I concede it was devastating while it lasted.

What exactly was Munich's style of football last season...and the season before under Heynckes.

Under him, Munich controlled the ball, pressed high and had the second highest pass completion and possession stats over 2011-2013, second to Barcelona. Sounds like Guardiola just continuing it on...you could argue Van Gaal sent both clubs on the same path. What is throwing people off is the Barcelona semifinal where they counter attacked.

The fear of Munich this season was crazy. To see the ABBs abandon them so quickly as 'best side ever!!' is funny.

kryogen

Munich last season had everything, they were great in possession, they were also absolutely lightning quick and direct on the counter attack, not patient. They hit teams hard and fast. They literally had it all, a perfect weapon of a team.

Turtwig

kryogen wrote: »

Munich last season had everything, they were great in possession, they were also absolutely lightning quick and direct on the counter attack, not patient. They hit teams hard and fast. They literally had it all, a perfect weapon of a team.

They also had teams attacking them. It's doubtful that this season teams would have gone against them toe to toe anyway. Pep's Barca had the same thing. First season they average about 54% percent possession. Were lighting on the counter attack and killed teams. Thing was, teams were openly playing them. Bayern last year had a similar experience.

kryogen

Turtwig wrote: »

They also had teams attacking them. It's doubtful that this season teams would have gone against them toe to toe anyway. Pep's Barca had the same thing. First season they average about 54% percent possession. Were lighting on the counter attack and killed teams. Thing was, teams were openly playing them. Bayern last year had a similar experience.

So, even for argument sake, say I agree with this. Pep having seen this happen to his team before should he not have had something different in his locker then?

Turtwig

kryogen wrote: »

So, even for argument sake, say I agree with this. Pep having seen this happen to his team before should he not have had something different in his locker then?

Yep and that's probably one of the reasons why he tried to change Bayern from Heycnkes (sp) model. But Bayern obviously weren't capable. He's been experimenting with them all season. Including pretty much the entire first leg. That suggests he hasn't found the Bayern he wants yet. In Barca - and I hate comparing the two- things were the same. He'd find the style that was effective. Then begin experimenting to find the next one and in that final season he went mad crazy with his experiments. 3-4-3 attack, with 4-4-2 defense. seemed to be his preferred formation for a finish but he obviously wasn't happy with the effort the players were putting in.

He's undoubtedly stubborn.

Corholio

Whatever about the result, I think Ancelotti should be given huge credit for the win rather than picking the tactical shortcomings of Pep. He's managed to get guys like Di Maria, who has been extremely frustrating since he joined Real, to pick better passes, track back better and be a genuine game changer this season. Modric floated in and out of the team under Jose, but has been sensational this season under Carlo. Resigning Carvajal has been a masterstroke, been one of the best right backs in Europe this season.

The pressing on Bayern tonight just completely rocked them and couldn't react fast enough once Real broke. Ronaldo's goal tonight was absolute beauty in it's team execution. There's a great camera replay of it from behind one of the goals that shows it fantastically.

Seaneh

Corholio wrote: »

Ronaldo's goal tonight was absolute beauty in it's team execution. There's a great camera replay of it from behind one of the goals that shows it fantastically.

Perfect, flowing, incisive counter attack, 3 quick passes to feet in a couple of seconds takes the ball from just outside the real penalty area to Ronaldo's feet at the edge of Bayerns area and gives Real a 2 v 2 with the defender stranded and Neuer having no hope in hell of covering the goal.

EuropeanSon

Seaneh wrote: »

Perfect, flowing, incisive counter attack, 3 quick passes to feet in a couple of seconds takes the ball from just outside the real penalty area to Ronaldo's feet at the edge of Bayerns area and gives Real a 2 v 2 with the defender stranded and Neuer having no hope in hell of covering the goal.

Neuer was quite poor there.

Great attacking play though.