Bayern Munich vs Real Madrid (Second Leg) (Allianz Arena) KO: 7:45PM (ITV1 + TV3)

Too Tough To Die

shrewdness wrote: »

I thought you said earlier that Ronaldo has eclipsed Messi as the best in the world over the last year, which is it?

Follow the whole debate, it will become clear to you.

shrewdness

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Follow the whole debate, it will become clear to you.

No, it's very clear to me what you think, but you posted contradictory comments. Hard to argue with someone like that so I'll leave it there.

SlickRic

people have nailed it on this thread.

Guardiola is so ideological that he has all but abandoned the strengths of the team.

the players he has are so good, that they will run over most of the Bundesliga playing pretty much any style they want. at the top end of the game, I'm sorry, but it's become a game of pace and power.

Rodgers has learned that FFS, surely Guardiola can adapt in much the same way.

he was blessed at Barca with a special generation of players. Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Messi. he also had Puyol in his prime who goes very under-appreciated. he had in that team, players who had the skillset, and had been honing it from when they were kids, to play tiki-taka. and they were brilliant. dominant.

Bayern are not a tiki-taka team. to try and instill that philosophy so rigidly into a bunch of players who it's alien to is cruelly stubborn.

i've no problem with tiki-taka as a system. with the right players, it's brilliant to watch. yes, very often, i find it pretty damn boring to watch, usually when Messi isn't involved, but it worked, and it worked for a long, long time.

Bayern's team is filled with pace and power, yet Guardiola has put shackles on them by his incessant need to "control the ball". we're only seeing about 50% of Bayern's potential IMO.

for a team like Bayern, who are so dominant in their league, it's all about the top end of Europe. that's all they really have to challenge themselves. and under Pep, they've failed pretty badly this year.

IMO, he needs to adapt.

Too Tough To Die

shrewdness wrote: »

No, it's very clear to me what you think, but you posted contradictory comments. Hard to argue with someone like that so I'll leave it there.

Ronaldo has taken the top spot, in part due to his ridiculously high levels of performance and in part due to Messi's poor form/injuries/lack of interest (take your pick). Ronaldo has not surpassed Messi's performance levels of a few years ago, he has not raised the bar as it were. Yes, in terms of CL goal scoring he has, but not in terms of being the best in the world, which is what we are discussing here.

PM me if you need more help with this.

kfallon

The writing was on the wall for Bayern from the Utd games tbh!

shrewdness

Too Tough To Die wrote: »

Ronaldo has taken the top spot, in part due to his ridiculously high levels of performance and in part due to Messi's poor form/injuries/lack of interest (take your pick). Ronaldo has not surpassed Messi's performance levels of a few years ago, he has not raised the bar as it were. Yes, in terms of CL goal scoring he has, but not in terms of being the best in the world, which is what we are discussing here.

PM me if you need more help with this.

So because of Messi's amazing high level of performance around 2012, should he forever be held up as the best player in the world, even if he doesn't repeat those performances and Ronaldo continues to outshine him? Sorry I don't agree.

Listen, I think Ronaldo, you think Messi, we're obviously not going to agree so let's leave it at that! The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same.

Too Tough To Die

shrewdness wrote: »

So because of Messi's amazing high level of performance around 2012, should he forever be held up as the best player in the world, even if he doesn't repeat those performances and Ronaldo continues to outshine him? Sorry I don't agree.

Listen, I think Ronaldo, you think Messi, we're obviously not going to agree so let's leave it at that! The world would be a boring place if we all thought the same.

I think Ronaldo is currently the best, dude. Rest assured, we agree.

DenMan

Bayern could be in for Newcastle's on loan QPR striker Remy.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/arsenal-transfers-loic-remy-also-3475572

kfallon

Nobody can dispute that Ronaldo is the best player in the world on current form, you'd have to be seriously biased to disagree.

However there is a World Cup in 6 weeks time and it could be the perfect opportunity for Messi to show everyone that he is still the best player on the planet.

Wolf Club

Can't say I'm too upset about Bayern's defeat last night, turns out their effort to significantly weaken their domestic rivals may have been part of their demise, when you compare the opponents they played all year to the ones they played last night. Hopefully Dortmund can give them a beating in the Cup final now as well!

Turtwig

One thing that no one has mentioned here yet is that Bayern have dropped in form since April. They've even struggled in some domestic games.

Agueroooo

Turtwig wrote: »

One thing that no one has mentioned here yet is that Bayern have dropped in form since April. They've even struggled in some domestic games.

wrapping the league up so early and lack of proper competition might not have helped.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

One thing that no one has mentioned here yet is that Bayern have dropped in form since April. They've even struggled in some domestic games.

Seen highlights of them the other night and by no means did they look out of this world. Now that all said they have nothing to play for.
I find their play in general was to narrow this year. Last year they utilised their wing backs to a better degree.

Dont forget also that City came back and beat them 3-2 (albeit dead rubber), Until Chez got sent off Arsenal were well on top, and they looked vulnerable against Man United too.

I would think that Pep needs more time to put his stamp on the club and i would hope he will get it. Bayern will be disappointed with last night but they by no means feel too bad about themselves this season. They had the league more or less wrapped up in March. Perhaps the lack of standard near them in Germany (Dortmund excepted to a certain degree) did have a bearing on them.

Blatter

Turtwig wrote: »

One thing that no one has mentioned here yet is that Bayern have dropped in form since April. They've even struggled in some domestic games.

The major factor that contributed to the result imo, along with Guardiola selecting Kroos and Scweinsteiger at the base of midfield. In a game they had to chase and try to keep a clean sheet at the same time, against a side with the pace and power of Ronaldo, Benzema, Bale and Di Maria - It was crazy he didn't select a more specialised DM (Martinez)

I don't think the style is THAT dissimilar to what Bayern played last season. They still dominated possession and pressed high up the field under Heynckes. The difference is they are less direct and there's more of an emphasis on 'Tiki taka' passing. It's something I think the Bayern players will be much better at next season.

Bayern have been on a downward spiral for a few weeks now, they lost a couple of Bundesliga games having gone around 18 months undefeated. This included a 0-3 defeat to Dortmund. They also made hard work of getting past the QF against a United side in disarray. This happens, teams generally do hit peaks abd troughs throughout the season. Bayern's low point fell at an unfortunate time for them. Maybe the manager has to look at how that happened at such a critical time.

Earlier on in the season, they were much better. In a game that mattered, they mauled Man City at the Etihad when City were playing great stuff in the league. Bayern were phenomenal that night. If they had brought that form into the Madrid games, we see a different match imo.

Basically, there are loads of factors that people should be analysing before jumping to the conclusion that the system was the major problem.

Boskowski

Disappointed obviously but I've seen it coming. It was no surprise really.
I didn't expect it to be this clear but the writing was on the wall after recent performances in the league and especially in the first leg of this tie.

I do understand that even at the top you need to keep changing. Whatever the winning formula is this year may not be good enough next year. Teams adjust and cop on to your style so the winners have to adjust too. The fact the same thing worked for Barca over several years before someone found a way to beat them just shows how brilliant they were.
But when you have just won the CL having famously overcome a style that dominated the previous years (Barca) the last thing you'd want to be doing is change to that very style next year yourself right?
This never made sense to me and it certainly doesn't make sense now.

Moneymaker

Another problem Bayern and Pep had was they were chasing the game. Since Real scored first they had to chase the game and that's not a good situation to be in.

They played a more attacking side then the first leg too and this only made them even more vulnerable.

Turtwig

Moneymaker wrote: »

Another problem Bayern and Pep had was they were chasing the game. Since Real scored first they had to chase the game and that's not a good situation to be in.

They played a more attacking side then the first leg too and this only made them even more vulnerable.

This actually made no sense to me. They only needed 1 goal in 90 minutes. Why did they start so open? It was madness. Javi Martinez should have started too. It's the first time, I think, in a serious game where I've seriously questioned Pep's starting line up and game plan.

Turtwig

Turtwig wrote: »

This actually made no sense to me. They only needed 1 goal in 90 minutes. Why did they start so open? It was madness. Javi Martinez should have started too. It's the first time, I think, in a serious game where I've seriously questioned Pep's starting line up and game plan.

Now this i would agree with. Pep was far too gung ho.

Moneymaker

Yeah I said before the match leaving out Martinez was absolutely suicidal. Considering how excellent he was for Bayern in their run to the CL title last year.