Violence against women in the series. Thoughts (Show spoilers) MOD NOTE post #1

snausages

Per a suggestion in the *not read the books thread*, I thought I'd set this up because every episode thread every week is getting derailed by this.

Now, I'm no social justice campaigner or Tumblr white knight, but I really feel some of the violent sex scenes with women in this show are excessive and detract more than they add to the series. Last night in particular had one of the worst scenes I've seen on TV and I don't consider myself a sensitive pansy usually. From what I've heard from others the books don't even go as far as the show does. At this stage it doesn't really feel like these scenes still hold a purpose, or at least the point they're trying to make has become a bit obscure. Life in Westeros is **** for women, but do they need to reinforce that fact every single week?

That's just how I feel anyway. It's not enough to prevent me from tuning in every week but it dampens my enthusiasm for the series in general.


MOD NOTE
Just a note to keep things nice and civil, if I see this descend into chaos I'll lock the thread.

Also please bear in mind this thread has show spoilers in the title, nobody is coming in expecting book spoilers or spoilers of future show events so please be careful when posting, if in doubt use spoiler tags.

@Snausages I had to adjust the title to fit the mod warning, it was fine just couldn't make the warning fit otherwise

Pat Mustard

The women don't seem to lose body parts at the same rate though.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

The Mustard wrote: »

The women don't seem to lose body parts at the same rate though.

check your privilege

ahnowbrowncow

snausages wrote: »

Per a suggestion in the *not read the books thread*, I thought I'd set this up because every episode thread every week is getting derailed by this.

Now, I'm no social justice campaigner or Tumblr white knight, but I really feel some of the violent sex scenes with women in this show are excessive and detract more than they add to the series. Last night in particular had one of the worst scenes I've seen on TV and I don't consider myself a sensitive pansy usually. From what I've heard from others the books don't even go as far as the show does. At this stage it doesn't really feel like these scenes still hold a purpose, or at least the point they're trying to make has become a bit obscure. Life in Westeros is **** for women, but do they need to reinforce that fact every single week?

That's just how I feel anyway. It's not enough to prevent me from tuning in every week but it dampens my enthusiasm for the series in general.

There's far more violence against men in the show, countless male characters have died gruesomely, been tortured and maimed.

But you only see the violence against the poor women.

snausages

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

There's far more violence against men in the show, countless male characters have died gruesomely, been tortured and maimed.

But you only see the violence against the poor women.

A lot of those scenes are justified by the plot.

This is a slight spoiler, so I'll hide it.

Apparently much of the stuff in Castor's Keep last night wasn't actually in the books, so it isn't quite as 'important' as Jaime losing his hand, or Theon being castrated

I'm not saying to take rape out of GoT, because that's asking for censorship. I just don't think it needs to be in it on an almost weekly basis.

edit: The spoiler is just something that was different about a scene last night compared with the books. Going off the other discussion thread anyway, I haven't actually read them so I may be mistaken

brevity

I personally think it's a rather cheap attempt at making people seem evil without proper character development. Easiest way to do that is make them a rapist or a child murderer. Admittedly, there are so many characters that it's difficulty to give screen time to them all, but I'd agree that it's becoming unnecessary.

Pat Mustard

Completely agree OP. The human rights abuses in Westeros are absolutely appalling. There should be trade sanctions, if not outright UN intervention.

Riskymove

its a reflection of the world its set in...similar to the medieval age here in our history...women had a bad lot and were used and abused

however....


babies killed, men castrated, people maimed,burned, crucified and flayed....hardly a murmur

a rape scene....huge reaction

endacl

The Mustard wrote: »

Completely agree OP. The human rights abuses in Westeros are absolutely appalling. There should be trade sanctions, if not outright UN intervention.

I for one have decided against Westeros as my holiday destination this year.

Potatoeman

Its glossed over in the books and hinted at.
Wasn't Theon

getting tourtured and gelded worse?

snausages

Riskymove wrote: »

its a reflection of the world its set in...similar to the medieval age here in our history...women had a bad lot and were used and abused

however....


babies killed, men castrated, people maimed,burned, crucified and flayed....hardly a murmur

a rape scene....huge reaction

I think a lot of people have missed my main point, which is that the frequency of scenes of women being raped far outweighs some of the other scenes you've just mentioned. I don't think so many of them is needed. There hasn't been a crucifixion scene or a scene with a man having his genitals mutilated half as frequently as there have been scenes of women being raped violently. Violent rape, reprehensible and offensive as it is, does have its part in GoT. I totally recognise that and agree with it also.* But I can't agree that there needs to be so many protracted scenes of this kind nearly every week or so (I recognise as well though that the 'rape' scene between Jaime and Cersei was more a directional snafu than anything else)

I'm not going to post any more tbh because I hate e-drama. Just thought this thread could be a useful filter for all the chat that would otherwise clog up much more interesting series discussion. So think of it as a GoT forum rubbish bin :pac:

edit: Sorry about that awful wording, I don't agree with rape. Honest.

Sleepy

It only bothers me insomuch as the constant bleating about it on Facebook or forums is irritating. Women get raped a lot in Westeros: exactly as they would have in any medieval society in our own history. The men face different horrors: being castrated, burned alive, beheaded, having their tongue ripped out, flaying, disembowelment... To be fair, the most brutal scene involving a female victim in this series so far wasn't in the books: Joffrey's forcing of one prostitute to beat another to death with a morningstar was a particularly gruesome aspect to his character's being aged up and yet it brought about far less controversy than last weeks botched incestuous sex scene...

That's not to say women haven't come to gruesome ends in the books though: without trying to spoiler anything: Ramsey Bolton is, if anything, even more twisted in the books though, his cruelty seems to be fairly egalitarian: he's as vicious to high-born ladies as he is to low born boys.

The simple reality is that our society, and particularly that of the US, see sex as something dirty and women as victims and those misguided notions have lead elements of the feminist movement to invent "rape culture" and the absurd notion that rape is the worst possible crime that can be committed (but only if the victim is a woman or a child since men can't legally be raped by women and the homosexual rape of a man is seen as something to titter about when discussing prison sentences...).

Of course it's a horrible thing to be raped and it's a vile thing to do to another human being but to put it in it's most brutally simple terms: a victim is still alive afterwards unless a second crime is committed at the same time.

Naydy

Riskymove wrote: »

its a reflection of the world its set in...similar to the medieval age here in our history...women had a bad lot and were used and abused

Why not show the effects of famine on King's Landing? No scenes of rabid dogs pulling apart corpses from the battles. No graphic scenes of children getting murdered. I would question why the show writers feel the need to include such an amount of sexual abuse of women that apparently wasn't even in the book?

The Jaime/Cersei scene, apparently the scene in question in Crasters and the scene where Ros was forced to brutalise another prostitute

. I'm open to correction on those, since I haven't read the books.

Riskymove wrote: »

babies killed, men castrated, people maimed,burned, crucified and flayed....hardly a murmur

a rape scene....huge reaction

Why no highly sexulised abuse of males added into the show? Theon's castration is the only example I can think of, but that scene wasn't as drawn out or shown to any extent.

Potatoeman

Riskymove wrote: »

its a reflection of the world its set in...similar to the medieval age here in our history...women had a bad lot and were used and abused

Peasants had it pretty though generally.

gazzamc

They were a bad bunch to begin with who were sent to the wall with no woman in sight for who knows long... What did you expect they were going to do to the woman? ...

Btw this isn't the first time rape has been on the show... Remember last season with theon? Or the attempt on Sansa?

Nerdlingr

Yeah, last night was the first time i thought "Do they really need to have that there??". It was the scene where the main guy at crasters was making his speech, having a go at the other lad and saying cnut .. A LOT. We know he and the rest of his gang are evil, we've just seen him drink out of a skull FFS...but do we really need to see some lad humping one of the women in the background? They could have well left it out.

dark crystal

I agree, the depiction of female extras as nothing other than sexual playthings can get rather annoying, especially when it seems superfluous to the actual scene.

I have no beef with sex or violence in GoT when it's required (and it often is), however, I'm not sure those scenes in Crasters were entirely necessary.

Potatoeman

Naydy wrote: »

Why not show the effects of famine on King's Landing? No scenes of rabid dogs pulling apart corpses from the battles. No graphic scenes of children getting murdered. I would question why the show writers feel the need to include such an amount of sexual abuse of women that apparently wasn't even in the book?

The Jaime/Cersei scene, apparently the scene in question in Crasters and the scene where Ros was forced to brutalise another prostitute

. I'm open to correction on those, since I haven't read the books.



Why no highly sexulised abuse of males added into the show? Theon is the only example I can think of, but that wasn't drawn out or shown to any extent.

HBO filled their male rape quota with OZ already.

ahnowbrowncow

Naydy wrote: »

Why not show the effects of famine on King's Landing? No scenes of rabid dogs pulling apart corpses from the battles. No graphic scenes of children getting murdered. I would question why the show writers feel the need to include such an amount of sexual abuse of women that apparently wasn't even in the book?

The Jaime/Cersei scene, apparently the scene in question in Crasters and the scene where Ros was forced to brutalise another prostitute

. I'm open to correction on those, since I haven't read the books.



Why no highly sexulised abuse of males added into the show? Theon is the only example I can think of, but that wasn't drawn out or shown to any extent.

The extreme violence the male characters are subjected to are just as bad if not worse than the sexual abuse in the show.

But violence against males is normalised and as Sleepy said, feminist propaganda paints sexual violence against women as the worst crime that can be committed.

Sleepy

Naydy wrote: »

I would question why the show writers feel the need to include such an amount of sexual abuse of women that apparently wasn't even in the book?

The Jaime/Cersei scene, apparently the scene in question in Crasters and the scene where Ros was forced to brutalise another prostitute

. I'm open to correction on those, since I haven't read the books.

the Jaime/Cersei scene as a **** up, the scene at Crasters is being handled differently but his daughters were certainly still raped by the Nights Watch traitors and Ros's scene seemed a natural aspect of Joffrey being 16 rather than 12: a teenage psychopath with the freedom from retribution of wearing a crown seems highly likely to engage in such sexually charged torture in the same way that the decisions of adults around him to try and distract him with sex make sense: 16 year old boys think of little else

Why no highly sexulised abuse of males added into the show? Theon is the only example I can think of, but that wasn't drawn out or shown to any extent.

Perhaps because violence against men has rarely if ever been highly sexualised?

calex71

MOD NOTE added to OP please take a moment to read, no offenders yet though, cheers.

whomitconcerns

I have a solution...Stop watching....its quite simple. Was a show like this to show all the myriad tyoes of violence and torture, sexual and otherwise, that was performed on men, women and childern in the adopted time period, the show would be banned and the book banned.

We dont need more sanitisation of what we are exposed to in our lives especially when its a part of our history. (Albeit in this case adapted for dragons and in a fictional sense)

The show is meant to show despair, degredation, humilation and the lowest of human low...and ultimately the opposite of all the aforementioned.

So back to my original point...dont watch it if you dont want to.

Bacchus

I agree with the OP. It feels like the showrunners are just going for shock and are trying to outdo themselves every week. Noone is arguing that these things don't occur in Westeros or are not realistic, but there just seems to be some desire by the showrunners to shove it in our faces more and more frequently. Rape and molestation of young women in particular.

Some posters have described the other horrific events on the show that occur as argument to why it's ok to show so much rape. I disagree. A character being killed is a major plot point. Arya getting revenge on yer man the other week in that brutal fashion was a major character point. These things serve the plot. Jamie losing his hand was a massive point for both Jamie AND for establishing how fcuked up the Boltons are. I've no idea what on-screen rape achieves other than further reinforce what we all already know. It sucks to be a woman in Westeros. That scene in Castors Keep did not have to be so vile.

A lot of the more extreme violence in the show is off camera too btw. Theon's castration was off-screen. Tongue ripped out was off-screen. I think even for Ned's beheading, the camera cut away (pardon the pun) at the last moment. Yet we know all these things happen and are a reality of Westeros.

Naydy

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

The extreme violence the male characters are subjected to are just as bad if not worse than the sexual abuse in the show.

But violence against males is normalised and as Sleepy said, feminist propaganda paints sexual violence against women as the worst crime that can be committed.

There is horrific violence against both sexes in abundance in this show, that's not the issue. I seem to remember a group of women tortured and hanged by Stark men for sleeping with Lannisters. Feminist propaganda, lol

Sleepy wrote: »

the Jaime/Cersei scene as a **** up, the scene at Crasters is being handled differently but his daughters were certainly still raped by the Nights Watch traitors and Ros's scene seemed a natural aspect of Joffrey being 16 rather than 12: a teenage psychopath with the freedom from retribution of wearing a crown seems highly likely to engage in such sexually charged torture in the same way that the decisions of adults around him to try and distract him with sex make sense: 16 year old boys think of little else

Perhaps because violence against men has rarely if ever been highly sexualised?

There have been loads of characters which have been castrated, why not the same focus and gruesomeness in those scenes? It's for shock reasons, nothing else, and it's unnecessary

Mr Freeze

Offended by the show? Don't watch it.

There is as much violence towards men as there is towards women in the show, I don't think any rape scenes are being used to fill HBOs boob quota's.

The scene in Craster's was supposed to horrific. Nothing in the show is PG.

eviltwin

I'm pretty open minded about most things and take the scenes in the context of the setting of the show but have to agree OP, last night made me uncomfortable and I would be hard to shock.

The show is a fantasy show so you have to look at it in that light, that same level of graphic violence would be a lot more shocking in a modern day drama and I guess the general attitude towards certain women by certain groups of men has to be treated in the same way. And it is counter balanced by some amazing female characters.

But I just felt last night was a bit much and I hope its not going to become one of those shows that includes violence and sexual violence in particular for the sake of bumping up the viewing figures.

Gbear

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Yeah, last night was the first time i thought "Do they really need to have that there??". It was the scene where the main guy at crasters was making his speech, having a go at the other lad and saying cnut .. A LOT. We know he and the rest of his gang are evil, we've just seen him drink out of a skull FFS...but do we really need to see some lad humping one of the women in the background? They could have well left it out.

Why would they hide the rapes at Craster's Keep?

We know there's women there. We know they're going to get raped.
As far as the story is concerned, the audience doesn't exist. If you're removing them it's for the sake of the audiences squeamishness and that's bad writing.

That's not to say I understand what's happening at Craster's Keep. Whether the whole storyline is justifiable, including the rapes, will depend on how it plays out and what they're trying to acheive with it.

Potatoeman

Some of the violence is equally gruesome and you could make the point it is equally unnecessary.

Mickeroo

eviltwin wrote: »

But I just felt last night was a bit much and I hope its not going to become one of those shows that includes violence and sexual violence in particular for the sake of bumping up the viewing figures.

That's HBO's bread and butter though, the gratuitous sex, violence and tendency to off characters at a whim is probably what drew them to the books (which are just as bad if not worse than the show for it) in the first place as it's the kind of thing I associated with a lot of their shows even before GoT.

dark crystal

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

There's far more violence against men in the show, countless male characters have died gruesomely, been tortured and maimed.

But you only see the violence against the poor women.

Yeah, as part of the plot! I don't think anyone has an issue with sex and violence of either gender when it's part of an actual plotline.

But, how many naked men do you see in the backround of scenes with their todgers hanging out getting randomly groped and raped for no descernible reason at all?

Nerdlingr

Gbear wrote: »

Why would they hide the rapes at Craster's Keep?

We know there's women there. We know they're going to get raped.
As far as the story is concerned, the audience doesn't exist. If you're removing them it's for the sake of the audiences squeamishness and that's bad writing.

That's not to say I understand what's happening at Craster's Keep. Whether the whole storyline is justifiable, including the rapes, will depend on how it plays out and what they're trying to acheive with it.

The original Crasters had the rape of women as well. But it was much more what was unseen. The menace and evil about the place. What happens in the shadows stays in the shadows. Women in the lofts, hidden from view. You knew craster was a dirty b*stard but you never saw him doing it out in public. It was left to your imagination to picture what happened to those women.
Now its just "How about we have this character drink from a skull, say cnut alot of the time, mock another character and all the while someone is getting raped in the background". I wasnt horrified by it I just didnt think it was neccessary.

brevity

What they could have left out of last nights episode was

"**** 'em till their dead"

. I mean it's totally unnecessary. We know they are evil from the previous series and what we've been told about them, this shock tactics stuff will wear thin eventually.

pickarooney

Naydy wrote: »

Why no highly sexulised abuse of males added into the show? Theon is the only example I can think of, but that wasn't drawn out or shown to any extent.

It went on for about eight weeks!

Gbear

Potatoeman wrote: »

Some of the violence is equally gruesome and you could make the point it is equally unnecessary.

How is it unnecessary?

It's a faithful depiction of the books and really, a faithful depiction of the real time frame the books are set in (medieval Europe).

Why is a warts-and-all approach considered worse than having the show softened to protect people's sensibilities?

Indeed, if any show ought to discard the clichéd archetypes of chivalrous knights and damsels in distress it's this one - where characters in the universe, like Sandor Clegane, often comment on the stupid fantasies that the likes of Sansa used to cling on to and instead show us the bleak reality that most want to pretend doesn't exist.

I think there's something very wrong with how some people look at this show and the "controversial" elements in it that I think is a function of lingering backwards taboos about sex in our culture.

Sex is real. It happens. There should be no more reason to avoid it than showing people carrying swords or riding around on horses.

If you take a character like Oberyn, you'd expect to find him in a brothel and you'd expect to find naked women there.
You'd expect to first be introduced to Tyrion while he's being attended by a load of prostitutes.
You'd expect naked women to be leaving Robert Baratheon's room at any hour of the day.

If they had random women hanging around Tywin's war councils with their tits out, completely going against his character, you'd have a point.

pickarooney

Personally, I just don't find the extended rape and torture scenes very interesting. I watch it for the plot and character development, the dialogue and the scenery; the gore is a bore.

Gbear

Nerdlingr wrote: »

The original Crasters had the rape of women as well. But it was much more what was unseen. The menace and evil about the place. What happens in the shadows stays in the shadows. Women in the lofts, hidden from view. You knew craster was a dirty b*stard but you never saw him doing it out in public. It was left to your imagination to picture what happened to those women.
Now its just "How about we have this character drink from a skull, say cnut alot of the time, mock another character and all the while someone is getting raped in the background". I wasnt horrified by it I just didnt think it was neccessary.

From a practical point of view, they wanted time between the watch and Craster to progress the story. Just showing him alone, raping one of the girls wouldn't have really done anything useful, in a series that has to cram a lot in a short space of time.

From a story point of view, it wouldn't make sense for Craster to be having sex with them in front of the Watch.

On the other hand, if they show you what's happening inside Craster's now, with the mutineers there, it makes sense to show them doing various horrible things.
I don't know what purpose there is in showing the inside of Craster's at all this season but I'm sure that will become clear over the next few weeks when the situation between them and Jon comes to a head.

Naydy

pickarooney wrote: »

It went on for about eight weeks!

I was talking about the scene of him being castrated, not his imprisonment overall

Witcher

dark crystal wrote: »

Yeah, as part of the plot! I don't think anyone has an issue with sex and violence of either gender when it's part of an actual plotline.

Craster's is part of a plotline..the mutineers are evil and they're going to get what's coming to them from the Watch.

brevity

Sex is fine, no one is complaining about the threesomes etc...it's questioning whether or not the constant sexual violence towards women is necessary.

Potatoeman

Gbear wrote: »

How is it unnecessary?

It's a faithful depiction of the books and really, a faithful depiction of the real time frame the books are set in (medieval Europe).

Why is a warts-and-all approach considered worse than having the show softened to protect people's sensibilities?

Indeed, if any show ought to discard the clichéd archetypes of chivalrous knights and damsels in distress it's this one - where characters in the universe, like Sandor Clegane, often comment on the stupid fantasies that the likes of Sansa used to cling on to and instead show us the bleak reality that most want to pretend doesn't exist.

I think there's something very wrong with how some people look at this show and the "controversial" elements in it that I think is a function of lingering backwards taboos about sex in our culture.

Sex is real. It happens. There should be no more reason to avoid it than showing people carrying swords or riding around on horses.

If you take a character like Oberyn, you'd expect to find him in a brothel and you'd expect to find naked women there.
You'd expect to first be introduced to Tyrion while he's being attended by a load of prostitutes.
You'd expect naked women to be leaving Robert Baratheon's room at any hour of the day.

If they had random women hanging around Tywin's war councils with their tits out, completely going against his character, you'd have a point.

My point was that you could make the
same point about the violence. It could be less gruesome but thats the tone of the show. I dont think they should tone it down.

Sleepy

Well, let's put it this way: what's to be gained from glossing over the fact that the traitors from the Nights Watch (an army recruited from dungeons which has many convicted rapists in it's ranks) would likely rape Crasters daughters after killing him and claiming his keep as their own?

What do we gain by not showing the violence?

Pat Mustard

Sleepy wrote: »

What do we gain by not showing the violence?

A PG rating and screening before the 9pm watershed?

They'd have to get rid of all the knives though...

Witcher

The Mustard wrote: »

A PG rating and screening before the 9pm watershed?

They'd have to get rid of all the knives though...

Ah people don't mind their kids seeing maiming, beheading, flaying or a man getting shot in the face by a crossbow...only sex.

As South Park said 'I guess parents don't give a crap about violence is there's sex things to worry about'.

Naydy

Sleepy wrote: »

Well, let's put it this way: what's to be gained from glossing over the fact that the traitors from the Nights Watch (an army recruited from dungeons which has many convicted rapists in it's ranks) would likely rape Crasters daughters after killing him and claiming his keep as their own?

What do we gain by not showing the violence?

You don't have to gloss over anything, you can imply abuse without having such a graphic uncomfortable scene. They didn't show Craster raping his daughters but we knew it happened. They didn't actually show Theon getting his member removed but we know it happened. They didn't show the farmers boys having their throats slit but we know it happened. They didn't show Loras and Renly riding each other and we managed to know they were in a relationship.

Duckworth_Luas

Ben and Holly's Magical Kingdom is on RTÉjr.

It has lots of the fantasy elements but none of the rape.

Not sure where they stand on cannibalism though. People always forget about the cannibalism?

GoodBridge

The shock card is one they seem to play a lot -but usually very well. Last night though I admit I found myself thinking "Jesus, is this a bit excessive? I don't remember it being this gratuitous in the book".

Anyway, do the makers know nothing? If you really want to pull a shocker just get someone to pretend to shoot a cat.

drumswan

Naydy wrote: »

You don't have to gloss over anything, you can imply abuse without having such a graphic uncomfortable scene. They didn't show Craster raping his daughters but we knew it happened. They didn't actually show Theon getting his member removed but we know it happened. They didn't show the farmers boys having their throats slit but we know it happened. They didn't show Loras and Renly riding each other and we managed to know they were in a relationship.

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

Naydy

drumswan wrote: »

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

Gee thanks for clearing that up :rolleyes:

My point is that most of that other stuff happens offscreen or is played down and it doesn't take away from the narrative. It's not added in for extra shock value

DM addict

Naydy wrote: »

You don't have to gloss over anything, you can imply abuse without having such a graphic uncomfortable scene. They didn't show Craster raping his daughters but we knew it happened. They didn't actually show Theon getting his member removed but we know it happened. They didn't show the farmers boys having their throats slit but we know it happened. They didn't show Loras and Renly riding each other and we managed to know they were in a relationship.

You're right, you can. You can always imply abuse/violence without showing it graphically.

But that's not what this show does, by and large. You're right, we didn't see Craster raping his wife/daughters - but it would have been weird if he was entertaining the Night's Watch while raping someone. It just wouldn't fit.

We didn't see Theon's castration in detail because there are many things that are just too ick to show. I doubt we'll see any female castration/FGM in detail either - some stuff you just can't get past the censors, even if you want to.

BUT I actually think the scene at Craster's last night does add something to the plot - or rather, underlines something. We've been told (quite a bit) that the Night's Watch is the dregs of society - bastards, thieves, murderers, rapists. But this scene emphasizes how close to returning to that life many of them are. AND, let's not forget, they're all that stands between the rest of the world and a bunch of wildlings, wights, White Walkers and god knows what else.

It's not a pleasant scene, but it works within context. It also basically sets skull-drinker (his name escapes me) up as the new Craster - he's bullying everyone around him and handing babies out for sacrifice.

Nerdlingr

drumswan wrote: »

Um, they dont show actual rape either, you know its acting right?

Next you're gonna tell us the Dragons aren't real either!! :rolleyes:

snausages

DM addict wrote: »

BUT I actually think the scene at Craster's last night does add something to the plot - or rather, underlines something. We've been told (quite a bit) that the Night's Watch is the dregs of society - bastards, thieves, murderers, rapists. But this scene emphasizes how close to returning to that life many of them are. AND, let's not forget, they're all that stands between the rest of the world and a bunch of wildlings, wights, White Walkers and god knows what else.

tbh, the first reasonable counter-argument I've read, for last night's scene at least. Although I disagree that they need to show that scene, I do admit to forgetting sometimes that lots of the Night's Watch are really just a shower of arseholes who deserve to be there rather than unfortunates like Jon Snow and Sam.