Has the Socialist Party disbanded?

quadrifoglio verde

KarmaBaby wrote: »

I was talking more in the sense of a private sector monopoly over key sectors of the Irish economy; Groceries, Communications, Banking, Construction, Pharmaceuticals, IT etc.

The profits from these sectors largely do not go back into the economy at all. This is evident from the fact that 90% of our exports are from foreign owned companies.

There is no reason why indigenous irish owned companies could not take larger control of these sectors so that the profits from those exports could actually fuel the Irish economy instead of someone else's.

The profits might get repatriated after tax back to the companies home country.
However in order to generate those profits, they just didn't pluck the money out of the air. In order to generate these profits, they invested in capital, they invested in labour and on top of that paid significant levels of paye and prsi.

If it wasn't for these scary multinationals that do not contribute to this economy, that capital wouldn't have been invested in. Indigenous Irish companies wouldn't have been contracted to provide services from cleaning, to catering, security and landscaping. The staff of the multinationals wouldn't have been paid, meaning that the government wouldn't have received paye from the multinational or prsi. they would have also had to pay the unemployed staff social welfare payments.
As there is no multinationals to employ the indigenous companies, these too wouldn't be in business meaning less paye and prsi and more social welfare payments.
With all the former staff of the multinationals and indigenous companies out of work because the multinationals are no longer here, other local shops and services will close down as spending will fall.

If we stop multinationals from making money, by taking away their profits, they'll go to a country that will let them keep their profit and the above scenario will happen. If you want proof of this, look at limerick after the Dell closure.....

That was only one multinational. Imagine what would happen if they all left:eek:

garhjw

KarmaBaby wrote: »

Paul Murphy has been an active campaigner for workers rights both in Ireland and Internationally. The rights of Palestinians is just one of those issues. Do you have a problem with an Irish politician taking a stance on this or would you prefer to vote for apologists of Israeli state oppression like Eamon Gilmore?

Paul Murphy is full of crap. He doesn't pay his taxes and spouts lies with his criticism of job bridge. He represents a lot of what is wrong with this country. The sense of entitlement without actually contributing to the country is sickening.

quadrifoglio verde

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Has the socialist party disbanded? Nope certainly not but they do seem embarrassed to be labelled socialists for some reason. Maybe its because champagne anti austerity alliance doesn't work as well together

Thank you for that. The topic seems to have wandered somewhat. I find it strange that they seem to be unwilling to canvass under their party name.

GaelMise

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

With regards to the wealth tax, this is a silly proposal from numpty land....any money I make from it will be taken by state.....a bill from revenue saying we want it all....Why would I bother going to all that hard effort for nothing....If there is no financial reward there for them at the end of the day, then they're not going to invest

Speaking of ideas from 'numpty land', the idea that anyone is talking of a 100% wealth tax must rank high amongst them.
The proposal was, I believe, a wealth tax of 1%. Hardily taking it all, and leaving you with nothing.
Not by any rational measure anyway.

France actually has a similer tax in place, I suppose this has resulted in no incentive to invest, I mean if all you can get out of it is 99%, whats the point?

comongethappy

GaelMise wrote: »

Speaking of ideas from 'numpty land', the idea that anyone is talking of a 100% wealth tax must rank high amongst them.
The proposal was, I believe, a wealth tax of 1%. Hardily taking it all, and leaving you with nothing.
Not by any rational measure anyway.

France actually has a similer tax in place, I suppose this has resulted in no incentive to invest, I mean if all you can get out of it is 99%, whats the point?

Indeed. 1% of everything.
Your home
Your savings
Your pension.
Your shares.
Your land.
Your vehicle value
Your declared chattel.

On top of all other taxes
Every single year.

And it would have had no affect on the deficit as SF declared to an increase in public spending from peak levels.

Nuts

GaelMise

comongethappy wrote: »

Indeed. 1% of everything.
Your home
Your savings
Your pension.
Your shares.
Your land.
Your vehicle value
Your declared chattel.

On top of all other taxes
Every single year.

And it would have had no affect on the deficit as SF declared to an increase in public spending from peak levels.

Nuts

Of everything after the first million, a small but somewhat important point.
And again, the counter argument was that those liable for the tax would be left with Nothing. Which is laughable.
And lets try not to forget that the alternative to this has been cutting services and increasing costs on people who acually have little or nothing left every month, to the same value of that which could have been taken in.

jank

GaelMise wrote: »

Of everything after the first million, a small but somewhat important point.
And again, the counter argument was that those liable for the tax would be left with Nothing. Which is laughable.
And lets try not to forget that the alternative to this has been cutting services and increasing costs on people who acually have little or nothing left every month, to the same value of that which could have been taken in.

Yet we see from other countries that a wealth tax like that does not work as intended.
You are forgetting about people who maybe asset rich but cash poor, OAP's and farmers who have property and land that may be valued over the threshold but are on very low incomes. Pensions is another one hard to quantify, how do you measure the pension plan of a retired nurse or teacher? Would the wealth tax exclude these people?

GaelMise

jank wrote: »

Yet we see from other countries that a wealth tax like that does not work as intended.
You are forgetting about people who maybe asset rich but cash poor, OAP's and farmers who have property and land that may be valued over the threshold but are on very low incomes. Pensions is another one hard to quantify, how do you measure the pension plan of a retired nurse or teacher? Would the wealth tax exclude these people?

The proposal I read says yes, those not in a position to pay can make their case, and have it defered or in some cases waived.

jank

GaelMise wrote: »

The proposal I read says yes, those not in a position to pay can make their case, and have it defered or in some cases waived.

So its really a tax on income then.... :rolleyes:

GaelMise

jank wrote: »

So its really a tax on income then.... :rolleyes:

No, its a tax on wealth that takes into account ability to pay.

jank

GaelMise wrote: »

No, its a tax on wealth that takes into account ability to pay.

We have that already, its called the property tax. Are you making this up as we go?

Riskymove

jank wrote: »

We have that already, its called the property tax. Are you making this up as we go?

I wouldn't agree that the property tax is a wealth tax

while obviously there are wealthy people with expensive houses....in many cases, especially given recent years, there are people in valuable houses who would not be classed as wealthy.

jank

Riskymove wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that the property tax is a wealth tax

while obviously there are wealthy people with expensive houses....in many cases, especially given recent years, there are people in valuable houses who would not be classed as wealthy.

Those that have a property are more well off than those who do not.
Those that have a property that is worth more than their neighbours are generally wealthier and pay more tax on said asset
Those that have a property that is worth more than 1 million euro pay a higher rate on that asset.

You know the saying about a duck right?

Godge

Riskymove wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that the property tax is a wealth tax

Huh??? A tax on wealth is a tax on things owned by a person i.e. property. Property includes cars, houses, pensions, savings, shares, businesses etc.

A tax on household property is therefore a subset of a wealth tax.

Simple economics and definitions.

Riskymove wrote: »

while obviously there are wealthy people with expensive houses....in many cases, especially given recent years, there are people in valuable houses who would not be classed as wealthy.

If you own a valuable house, you are wealthy, you may not be cash-rich, but you are wealthy because you own a valuable piece of property.

carpejugulum

I've glanced a few anti austerity / socialist party posters and their promises are - to put it mildly - insane.
They will solve all macro and micro-economic issues and without being in the government or even in the Dail too.

GaelMise

Godge wrote: »

Huh??? A tax on wealth is a tax on things owned by a person i.e. property. Property includes cars, houses, pensions, savings, shares, businesses etc.

A tax on household property is therefore a subset of a wealth tax.

Simple economics and definitions.

Good point, should a Wealth Tax be brought in some time in the future, I would support assets already covered in the property tax being excluded.

Riskymove

Godge wrote: »

If you own a valuable house, you are wealthy, you may not be cash-rich, but you are wealthy because you own a valuable piece of property.

I understand the economic definitions

I suppose I was coming from the perspective of all the talk about "tax the rich" etc. I dont think the property tax is what people have in mind when they talk about wealth taxes and "tax the rich" etc.

I don't think having a house would make someone automatically "wealthy" or "rich"

Those that have a property are more well off than those who do not.

I think there are a lot of people out there who would disagree

Those that have a property that is worth more than their neighbours are generally wealthier

again I'd disagree

my neighbours bought their (more valuable than mine) house almost 40 years ago but I would consider my household to be better off financially

Zubeneschamali

Riskymove wrote: »

my neighbours bought their (more valuable than mine) house almost 40 years ago but I would consider my household to be better off financially

No-one is saying that a property tax is a tax on all wealth. A rich guy could dodge it by living in the Shelbourne.

But it is a tax on a form of wealth.

Riskymove

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But it is a tax on a form of wealth.

I know

Hotblack Desiato

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I was about to ask whether it was fair for a tax-dodging company to not expect the police to protect their right to property, and then I realised that in Anarcho-Capitalist Utopia™ that police forces would be privately owned, potentially by said tax-dodgers. :rolleyes:

Like this? :pac:

L.P.D.: Libertarian Police Department - The New Yorker

I was shooting heroin and reading “The Fountainhead” in the front seat of my privately owned police cruiser when a call came in. I put a quarter in the radio to activate it. It was the chief.

“Bad news, detective. We got a situation.” ...

On-topic, is it any wonder people are cynical about politics when you have people like Paul Murphy not making promises he intends to break if elected, but promises he cannot keep even if he is elected. Promises which are not within the competence of the body he is seeking election to.

Jolly Red Giant

ninja900 wrote: »

On-topic, is it any wonder people are cynical about politics when you have people like Paul Murphy not making promises he intends to break if elected, but promises he cannot keep even if he is elected. Promises which are not within the competence of the body he is seeking election to.

Maybe you can outline the promises you think he is making and the promises he is making that are not within the competence of the EU parliament.

Hotblack Desiato

Compulsory health insurance ... nothing to do with EP
Rent increases ... nothing to do with EP
Water tax ... nothing to do with EP
Austerity (After six years...) ... nothing to do with EP
Jobs ... nothing to do with EP
Wage levels ... nothing to do with EP

Jolly Red Giant

Look at all the hacks jumping to 'like' you post

ninja900 wrote: »

Compulsory health insurance ... nothing to do with EP

Liberalisation of the 'market' - health insurance lobbyists are active lobbying MEPs

ninja900 wrote: »

Rent increases ... nothing to do with EP

The property bubble was fuelled by massive loans from German and French banks and the housing crisis today is the result of the policies imposed by the IMF and ECB

ninja900 wrote: »

Water tax ... nothing to do with EP

Water charges were specifically imposed by the memorandum with the IMF/ECB

ninja900 wrote: »

Austerity (After six years...) ... nothing to do with EP

The elites in the EU are imposing austerity policies all over Europe - the crisis was caused by the massive financial gambling of the elites and austerity is now the policy of the EU

ninja900 wrote: »

Jobs ... nothing to do with EP

Again wrong - the austerity imposed by the EU has cost tens of thousands of jobs - and the EU is attempting to restrict any attempt at public sector job creation (if FG and LP actually wanted to do it)

ninja900 wrote: »

Wage levels ... nothing to do with EP

The EU has a generalised policy of driving down wages under the guise of 'competitiveness'.

Don't for one moment think that the crisis in Ireland and was not created by the policies of the European elites - and don't for one moment think that the consequences of austerity are anything other than the conscious strategy of the European elites to drive down the living standards of the European working class in order to boost profits. These policies are not a 'necessity' they are a conscious policy decision and they are take in the interests of the ruling elites. The EU Parliament is a tool, a mechanism, for them to assist in perpetrating the robbery of the working class.

Paul Murphy explains the approach of socialists to the EU Parliament and the impact of the EU on austerity during the Vincent Browne Peoples Debate this week.

Some recent contributions by Paul Murphy in the EU Parliament dealing with some of these issues.

Paul Murphy speaking on a resolution dealing with the Posted Workers Directive which is giving a legal framework to the race to the bottom in workers' pay and conditions and gross exploitation of migrant workers. 16/04/2014

Paul Murphy commenting on corporate lobbying of MEPs 15/04/2104

Paul Murphy outlining how the European Commission are using the institutions of the EU to impose austerity on an EU wide basis 26/02/2014

Paul Murphy demonstrates how the policies of the EU are fuelling homelessness 17/01/2014

Paul Murphy demonstrating how EU policies are destroying jobs and how pro-austerity governments are fiddling the figures. 14/01/2014

garhjw

Why does he never talk about the contribution the greed of trade unions made to bankrupting of this country?

What is wrong with austerity when it is required? Public spending had to be curbed.

Laughable at some of the crap spouted by him and his supporters on Vincent Browne.

So, is Paul Murphy standing as a member of the Socialist Party or not? Why do they seem to have changed their name in the run up to an election? Are they distancing themselves from Joe Higgins?

alastair

Look at all the hacks jumping to 'like' you post

Presenting a list of dubious accusations against the IMF and 'EU elites' is not really the same thing as refuting the charge that most of these issues cannot be fought in the European Parliament. Of all the issues referenced, only the legislation that links water consumption with the polluter-pays principle stemmed from the EP. And that directive was signed into law a long time back, with Ireland choosing a derogation. The IMF/ECB couldn't care less what mechanisms the Irish state uses to clear the deficit, they didn't demand the introduction of water charges, and even if they did, it's nothing to do with the European Parliament, given that both are independent bodies.

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

So, is Paul Murphy standing as a member of the Socialist Party or not? Why do they seem to have changed their name in the run up to an election? Are they distancing themselves from Joe Higgins?

They're just lifting a strategy from the SWP. Not that it looks like working, if Paul Murphy's figures are anything like the polls suggest.

Arthur Beesley

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The Socialist Party exists and will continue to exist. The party continues to grow and extend its influence around the country.

What country are you in? It certainly isn't Ireland.

Jolly Red Giant

Deleted User wrote: »

So, is Paul Murphy standing as a member of the Socialist Party or not? Why do they seem to have changed their name in the run up to an election? Are they distancing themselves from Joe Higgins?

Where do you clowns get this nonsense ? :rolleyes:

Paul Murphy is standing as a Socialist Party candidate in the Euro elections. The Anti-Austerity Alliance is only registered as a political party for the local elections. Ruth Coppinger will be running as a candidate for the Socialist Party in the Dublin West by-election for the same reason.

Joe Higgins, Paul Murphy and Ruth Coppinger canvassing in Dublin West last week -

Jolly Red Giant

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Where do you clowns get this nonsense ? :rolleyes:Paul Murphy is standing as a Socialist Party candidate in the Euro elections. The Anti-Austerity Alliance is only registered as a political party for the local elections. Ruth Coppinger will be running as a candidate for the Socialist Party in the Dublin West by-election for the same reason.

Looking at PM's Election posters he's got both AAA and SP on them which is confusing. WHICH is he? Does he know? Clowns like facts, not confusion.

Permabear

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quadrifoglio verde

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Probably working under comrade murphy assembling tech that 40 years out of date.
No incentive to make profit equals no incentive to innovate.

PopePalpatine

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Something that pays >€238p/w, perhaps?

Good loser

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Something that pays >€238p/w, perhaps?

I'd say their sights are higher. How about the ESB average wage 60k, 70k or 80k a year?

Hotblack Desiato

Getting onto an MEP's substitute list can turn into quite a well-paid job :cool:

C14N

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I'm guessing it's something like a "real recovery" (from on of his other posters claiming that our recently recovering state is somehow just smoke and mirrors).

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Compulsory health insurance ... nothing to do with EP
Rent increases ... nothing to do with EP
Water tax ... nothing to do with EP
Austerity (After six years...) ... nothing to do with EP
Jobs ... nothing to do with EP
Wage levels ... nothing to do with EP

See Paul Murphys new Election posters look very like the old Euro ones. "Enough is Enough" "Scrap water charges" etc. Sorry, I couldn't find a picture to put up, just passed some today in Dublin.

BlutendeRabe

Deleted User wrote: »

See Paul Murphys new Election posters look very like the old Euro ones. "Enough is Enough" "Scrap water charges" etc. Sorry, I couldn't find a picture to put up, just passed some today in Dublin.

They've a habit of recycling election posters (not faulting them for that. Fair play to them for cutting costs). In 2 years time they'll be cut up and used as a backing of sorts for one of their myriad of public meetings.

meglome

Deleted User wrote: »

See Paul Murphys new Election posters look very like the old Euro ones. "Enough is Enough" "Scrap water charges" etc. Sorry, I couldn't find a picture to put up, just passed some today in Dublin.

I saw a lot of his posters around Blanchardstown and without exception they were absolute ****e. Pretty much every promise had no hope of being followed though on. Are people really that stupid. (They are seemingly as he got elected no problem whatsoever and will sit back and blame the government for the things he couldn't do, the things there was no hope of him doing in the first place).

BlutendeRabe

meglome wrote: »

I saw a lot of his posters around Blanchardstown and without exception they were absolute ****e. Pretty much every promise had no hope of being followed though on. Are people really that stupid. (They are seemingly as he got elected no problem whatsoever and will sit back and blame the government for the things he couldn't do, the things there was no hope of him doing in the first place).

They tend to have fairly good councillors in areas where they are strong such as Blanch and the northside of Cork - people who are more than willing to be the glorified social workers dealing with potholes, housing and representing constituents for obtaining services. A lot of the far left parties (particularly the SWP before they set up People Before Profit) tend to sneer at such "electioneerism".
I've never gotten the idea that you should vote for someone who should be in government. You should vote for someone who reflects your views and beliefs.
You are right in the case of the SP. Cold day in hell before they get into government & how the hell would they implement it in the first place. Can just imagine the brain drain which such policies amongst other things.

jank

Well seeing as Ireland is now reaping the benefits of Austerity (not really austerity more like balancing the books!) will we hear people from the Socialist Party admitting that it does work? Or are they too busy studying socialist scripture from the 19th century.

Aongus Von Bismarck

I studied Business and German in Trinity in the late 90's and early 00's. Part of our course involved reading Marx. His writings had a profound influence of some of my peers. More than a handful joined the Socialist Party, with some of them seen handing out leaflets outside the GPO of a Saturday. Along with listening to Rage Against the Machine, wearing a Che Guevara t-shirt, and defending the dictatorship in Cuba - most of them were exploring their sense of self in the world (their world being funded by social democracy and an open economy). Thankfully, from looking at Facebook, most of them seem to have left that angsty stage behind them.

The Socialist Party is a place for young people to explore radicalism through leaflets, passion, workshops, and misguided economics. The vast majority of members end up getting sick of the hardcore leadership. Then they get a job and become centrists.

meglome

meglome wrote: »

I saw a lot of his posters around Blanchardstown and without exception they were absolute ****e. Pretty much every promise had no hope of being followed though on. Are people really that stupid. (They are seemingly as he got elected no problem whatsoever and will sit back and blame the government for the things he couldn't do, the things there was no hope of him doing in the first place).

Paul Murphy was NEVER elected to anything! He was 4th reserve for Joe Higgins in Europe. The other 3 didn't want the job! Claire Daly was elected a TD, Ruth Coppinger a Councillor and I can't remember the other, a former Co Councillor

petronius

Well done to Paul Murphy elected to the Dail the naysayers are a bit silent

I think the Socialist Party has always had its issues with keeping members, 2 former Members are TD's Clare Daly(elected for SP) and Joan Collins. And the failure to maintain a coherent broad left with the Socialist Workers Party/PBP, AAA, UL, WUG(South Tipp) and other independents and independent left, rather that being consumed by infighting
I also think the party will suffer from Joe Higgins retiring will be a blow to the party and maybe Murphy will end up leading the party.

BoJack Horseman

petronius wrote: »

maybe Murphy will end up leading the party.

The coffin nail.

coolemon

petronius wrote: »

Well done to Paul Murphy elected to the Dail the naysayers are a bit silent

I think the Socialist Party has always had its issues with keeping members, 2 former Members are TD's Clare Daly(elected for SP) and Joan Collins. And the failure to maintain a coherent broad left with the Socialist Workers Party/PBP, AAA, UL, WUG(South Tipp) and other independents and independent left, rather that being consumed by infighting
I also think the party will suffer from Joe Higgins retiring will be a blow to the party and maybe Murphy will end up leading the party.

I would have thought the SP has a 'collective leadership'. Joe Higgins only appeared as leader because he was the only person in the public eye for quite some time.

coolemon

Deleted User wrote: »

Paul Murphy was NEVER elected to anything!

All that is solid...