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Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

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    #272
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Does the NI Assembly decide taxation policy or is that the perogative of Westminster?

    Genuine question - I would google but am reliant on a dongle in rural Ireland atm and I'm lucky I got this page to open after an hour of hitting reload. :mad:

    They can't but it may change, its an important issue because of the fact that Northern Ireland is a peripheral region in the UK and it shares a border with the ROI which has a much much lower corporation tax rate,now how a lowering of corporation tax sits with aspects of SF's principles is a different matter but they have shown themselves to be pragmatic.
    the_syco wrote: »
    Also, although NI SF are seen as bringers of peace, RoI SF are seen as linked to a terrorist organisation that liked to rob post offices in RoI.

    Thats a bit confusing, so people in Northern Ireland, who are notorious for having long memories, only see SF as a post-ceasefire party while in the ROI they are associated with a number of incidents which though serious and tragic even in total pale in comparison to a 'normal' year in the 30+ years of the Troubles in NI


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    #273
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    RDM_83 again wrote: »

    My thinking on this and it will probably get some posters backs up, is that much of the dislike of SF particularly by the older generation is less to do with the Troubles and more to do with both a repressed sense of guilt over historic nationalist treatment in NI and the fact that SF traditionally did not respect the government of the ROI.




    .
    I was making the same point on another thread. I think that is key to understanding SF in the south.
    Not that it will ever be admitted mind you, but FG/FF know only too well that the day of reckoning is approaching and their positions are under threat.
    Once they turned their backs it was inevitable that it would come back to haunt them.


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    #274
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    My thinking on this and it will probably get some posters backs up, is that much of the dislike of SF particularly by the older generation is less to do with the Troubles and more to do with both a repressed sense of guilt over historic nationalist treatment in NI and the fact that SF traditionally did not respect the government of the ROI.

    That they didn't respect the State - not the government(s).

    Maybe.

    But the guilt thing makes not a jot of sense. The SDLP were/are well liked in the South - so what could this guilt regarding the historic plight of nationalists that's only selectively directed towards SF be about? Let's not forget that said nationalists didn't much care for SF at the ballot box themselves, until they took on the policies of the SDLP.

    Personally I have a dislike for them on the basis of their towering hypocrisies - which outshine all other parties on this island, and god knows there's some rich competition there. Other than that they're cookie-cutter populists who's false promises will be exposed once they've been through the ringer of actual governance - but again, not much new there.


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    #275
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    As a Northerner I have never quiet understood the deep seated, knee-jerk hatred that a significant amount of people in the Republic have.
    ..............

    Cushioned from the reality and subjected to decades of one sided propaganda. It's ironic that the British public heard more of a two sided debate.


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    #276
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    I was making the same point on another thread. I think that is key to understanding SF in the south.
    Not that it will ever be admitted mind you, but FG/FF know only too well that the day of reckoning is approaching and their positions are under threat.
    Once they turned their backs it was inevitable that it would come back to haunt them.

    You see, this is the kind of rhetoric that has absolutely no resonance in the south . However you may think of it this has been a functioning democracy for nearly a century and both electorates have a massively different view on what is important.


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    #277
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Cushioned from the reality and subjected to decades of one sided propaganda. It's ironic that the British public heard more of a two sided debate.

    But Nodin -you are missing the point. When you say 'cushioned from the reality '' you say it like it was a fault . It is what it is.


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    #278
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    But Nodin -you are missing the point. When you say 'cushioned from the reality '' you say it like it was a fault . It is what it is.


    It is what it is and what it is is fairly nauseating.


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    #279
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    It is what it is and what it is is fairly nauseating.

    How so ? you are looking it through your experience and not through the aspirations of the electorate you are trying to convince.

    Do you think the 26 counties should have a sense of guilt about partition and its subsequent effects ?


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    #280
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Nodin wrote: »
    Cushioned from the reality and subjected to decades of one sided propaganda. It's ironic that the British public heard more of a two sided debate.

    Any examples?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #281
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    marienbad wrote: »
    You see, this is the kind of rhetoric that has absolutely no resonance in the south . However you may think of it this has been a functioning democracy for nearly a century and both electorates have a massively different view on what is important.
    The guilt exists precisely because of what and who were not considered 'important' enough and were abandoned


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    #282
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The guilt exists precisely because of what and who were not considered 'important' enough and were abandoned


    What makes you think there is any guilt ?


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    #283
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    the_syco wrote: »
    He's spent about half of his life as the leader of SF, and I think he'll continue until he dies. To be fair, who else has anywhere near as much credibility as he does?

    Do you really believe that he's credible ?
    He has never admitted to his part in the troubles. Even the dogs on the street know he gave the orders.
    At least McGuinness admitted his part. That may well have been an expedient admission to suit the situation but at least he's come clean (well almost)

    As for Mary Lou. Her interview tonight on RTE was sickening. So McConville "lost her life". I was glad when she was corrected and had to admit she was murdered.
    If we want history rewritten, we needn't look to far to get it.

    As an aside.....I'd love to know how she afforded her nice house in Cabra with all the renovation work done on it with an average industrial wage (her husband works for Bord Gais according to what I read recently)?. It must be one of the biggest houses on the road.


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    #284
    twowheelsgood
    Registered Users Posts: 759 ✭✭✭twowheelsgood


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    As a Northerner I have never quiet understood the deep seated, knee-jerk hatred that a significant amount of people in the Republic have.
    As a Southern I have never quite understood why so many Northern republicans did not / do not understand the absolute fury that many of us had (and retained) when PIRA had the astounding arrogance to presume themselves to be a superior class of Irish people than the rest of us and constantly and continuously disregarded the persistent and unwavering message from us of “not in our name”.
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    My thinking on this and it will probably get some posters backs up, is that much of the dislike of SF particularly by the older generation is less to do with the Troubles and more to do with both a repressed sense of guilt over historic nationalist treatment in NI and the fact that SF traditionally did not respect the government of the ROI.
    I’m not sure this is your unique thinking. I have seen this psycho-babble peddled often before. The truth, as usual and as outlined above, is much more simple.

    When you consider that the most impressive public protests in recent decades, even in the difficult times in which we live, were against wars in Iraq (even though the US were not acting in our name!) I don’t think it should be so hard to see where the distaste for those who use violence without authority comes from, and why this distaste remains when SF still have some of their old soldiers in their ranks.


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    #285
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    K-9 wrote: »
    Any examples?


    You've forgotten about section 31? The first time I heard a republican speak on the TV, it was BBC NI news. Cosgrave coming on TV and blaming the IRA for the Dublin Monaghan bombings?

    Not to mention Eoin Harris activities.


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    #286
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    How so ? you are looking it through your experience and not through the aspirations of the electorate you are trying to convince.

    Do you think the 26 counties should have a sense of guilt about partition and its subsequent effects ?


    A sense of empathy with those suffering in the sectarian statelet would have been appropriate.


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    #287
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    A sense of empathy with those suffering in the sectarian statelet would have been appropriate.

    There was and is huge empathy Nodin , the British embassy fire is the most glaring example. But there is reality also, what could have been done that wasn't ?


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    #288
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    You've forgotten about section 31? The first time I heard a republican speak on the TV, it was BBC NI news. Cosgrave coming on TV and blaming the IRA for the Dublin Monaghan bombings?

    Not to mention Eoin Harris activities.

    Are you taking in to account that these same Republicans were robbing left right and centre , kidnapping innocent individuals and treating the Gardaí as legitimate targets and at the same time refusing to recognising the legitimacy of the state ?

    And you think section 31 ,The Minister for Hardship, and an apologist for the Iraq war counterbalances that ?


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    #289
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    There was and is huge empathy Nodin , the British embassy fire is the most glaring example. But there is reality also, what could have been done that wasn't ?


    Done by who? The state could have taken a more neutral role for a start.

    The gardai were targeted? Since when did the space-time continuum distort enough for that bit of "history"?


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    #290
    Palz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭Palz


    Why are Sinn Fein 'bad' ?

    God only knows. They just are.


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    #291
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Done by who? The state could have taken a more neutral role for a start.

    The gardai were targeted? Since when did the space-time continuum distort enough for that bit of "history"?

    The state was anything but neutral . We had gunrunning plots at the highest levels of government , information passed to pira , emergency services gone missing when the Embassy burned to the ground and they are just the headlines. And on the other hand we had had .


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    #292
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #293
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Nodin wrote: »
    You've forgotten about section 31? The first time I heard a republican speak on the TV, it was BBC NI news. Cosgrave coming on TV and blaming the IRA for the Dublin Monaghan bombings?

    Not to mention Eoin Harris activities.

    Might as well throw in Cruiser, and we all know how the Sun and the Mail were famed for more balanced coverage than the Irish press!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #294
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    alastair wrote: »
    That they didn't respect the State - not the government(s).

    Actually state is more applicable than government your correct.
    alastair wrote: »
    But the guilt thing makes not a jot of sense. The SDLP were/are well liked in the South - so what could this guilt regarding the historic plight of nationalists that's only selectively directed towards SF be about? Let's not forget that said nationalists didn't much care for SF at the ballot box themselves, until they took on the policies of the SDLP.
    twowheelsgood wrote: »
    As a Southern I have never quite understood why so many Northern republicans did not / do not understand the absolute fury that many of us had (and retained) when PIRA had the astounding arrogance to presume themselves to be a superior class of Irish people than the rest of us and constantly and continuously disregarded the persistent and unwavering message from us of “not in our name”.

    I’m not sure this is your unique thinking. I have seen this psycho-babble peddled often before. The truth, as usual and as outlined above, is much more simple.

    When you consider that the most impressive public protests in recent decades, even in the difficult times in which we live, were against wars in Iraq (even though the US were not acting in our name!) I don’t think it should be so hard to see where the distaste for those who use violence without authority comes from, and why this distaste remains when SF still have some of their old soldiers in their ranks.

    My question is not simply why SF were unpopular in the ROI, its why SF have such a deep seated antagonism by a certain segment of the population 20 years since the wind down of major hostilities whereas in NI where the vast majority of the violence has occurred they are not generally viewed the same way even though pre-ceasefire they were pretty electorally unpopular.
    Why is it that the people who actually suffered through the Troubles can recognize that times have changed but many of those in the ROI don't?


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    #295
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Nothing bad at all about Sinn Fein. The indo has a agenda against them because the IRA burned down their offices in 1920 & naturally ultra-conservative parties (most mainstream ones in Ireland) don't like left-wing politics.

    They supported an insurrection against a corrupt & brutal state & rightly so. Most people on here will be too afraid to say it but the IRA helped restore Ireland's credibility & they helped wave in the period of the Celtic tiger.


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    #296
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    The state was anything but neutral . We had gunrunning plots at the highest levels of government , information passed to pira , emergency services gone missing when the Embassy burned to the ground and they are just the headlines. And on the other hand we had had .

    Isolated incidents that go against the overall trend.
    k9 wrote:
    Might as well throw in Cruiser.

    It's too late for that, alas.


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    #297
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Actually state is more applicable than government your correct.






    Why is it that the people who actually suffered through the Troubles can recognize that times have changed but many of those in the ROI don't?

    Because people in ROI love their Rome rule & hate change.


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    #298
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yep, "parochial insularity" allright,
    http://f2.thejournal.ie/media/2013/12/gerry-adams-mandela-390x285.jpg


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    #299
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Why is it that the people who actually suffered through the Troubles can recognize that times have changed but many of those in the ROI don't?

    Possibly because although the times have changed, there's still lots to hold SF to account for? NI nationalists had the option of rewarding SF for their decision to abandon their campaign of violence - and did so. It helped that they (SF) ditched most of their crazy policy at the same time and effectively became SDLP MkII, while the real SDLP slowly unravelled and lost their best assets. NI Nationalists only really had two and a half options for who to support - SF, SDLP, or Alliance. Southern voters obviously had a range of alternatives to SF, so, while they might have been grateful that they (SF) had finally copped on to themselves, there was less reason to reward them electorally, so they stayed out in the cold that much longer.

    I've stated my reasons for disliking them, but really - it's not too hard to identify the historic, recent, and current reasons why so many other people do.


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    #300
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    the IRA helped restore Ireland's credibility & they helped wave in the period of the Celtic tiger.

    Even for a shinner-bot, that is quite remarkable!

    Excellent work.


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    #301
    buckfasterer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,198 ✭✭✭buckfasterer


    If you ask that question here in Donegal you'll not get a reply that they're bad. The likes of Pearse Doherty didn't get elected on the grounds of a rebellion vote. He was voted in as he was the best candidate in the area.


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