Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

Dan_Solo

marienbad wrote: »

Dan, you have lost me at this stage - what exactly is your point ?

The claim was that we need 200k salaries for consultants or they will leave. The point is that other, not bankrupt, European countries have consultants on under a proposed 100k salary cap.
Are our consultants so good they're deserve twice what a German consultant gets?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Doctors have NEVER been coming here from France and Germany. Why is that? The only answer is that they're not just in it for the money...
Oh, we've moved the goalposts to "highest" I see. Why did you do that? You found two countries (neither of whom are bankrupt) that pay similar levels to Ireland. Well done.

Ehh - you said:

I'll ask again: what's so special about Irish doctors that they are amongst the highest paid on earth?

So I'm not shifting your goalposts a jot.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And it turned out that on basic salary I was 100% correct.
Overtime is not considered normal salary.
Try again.

Earnings are earnings.

You said:

What makes you think doctors and professors get over 100,000? As far as I can tell only consultants do.

Backpedalling about base salary is a bit lame tbh.

Dan_Solo

ardmacha wrote: »

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

Like I already said, those salaries are considered the norm in other, not bankrupt, European countries. Are our doctors twice as good as French doctors?

pablo128

ardmacha wrote: »

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

So when it comes to water charges, we have no choice in the matter as we 'need' the money. But when it comes to the doctors, we have no choice but to pay them or they'll all run away. Some country we live in.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Earnings are earnings.

You said:


Backpedalling about base salary is a bit lame tbh.

So if you are talking about overtime pay which is irrelevant to a basic pay salary cap and get called out on it, I am back pedalling?
Laughable.

marienbad

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So if you are talking about overtime pay which is irrelevant to a basic pay salary cap and get called out on it, I am back pedalling?
Laughable.

You really can't discount overtime though, at least not in this case as it is mandatory and in a sense is factored in to the overall budget.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Ehh - you said:

So I'm not shifting your goalposts a jot.

I said "amongst the highest". You claimed I said "highest". This is obvious to everybody here so don't make a fool of yourself pretending you didn't misquote me.

Bannasidhe

ardmacha wrote: »

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

In what universe does a 'workshy household' get close to 60k?

Dan_Solo

marienbad wrote: »

You really can't discount overtime though, at least not in this case as it is mandatory and in a sense is factored in to the overall budget.

It's a salary cap. Not an earnings cap. Just because it has to be paid doesn't mean it's part of the basic salary.

Dan_Solo

So, nobody's going to pretend that Irish doctors are worth twice a German or French doctor based on their performance.
Glad we've put that one to bed at least.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The barrister believes that hearsay is not admissible in a court of law and the tapes are indeed hearsay, furthermore the barrister questions the timing of events given the tapes have been in the possession of the PNSI since last July. Adams could have been asked to come in months ago.

Do you believe the PNSI is completely above board in everything they do?

I don't.

I don't believe any police force is free from private agendas at play on the part of some members of the force.

Do you believe every 'arrest' is justified as there is no smoke without fire?
You might want to ask Claire Daly how she feels about that attitude. Her arrest and subsequent handcuffing was trumpeted across the media and guess what - she was completely innocent.

Eh - she was arrested for failing to produce a breath sample after being stopped on suspicion of drunk driving. The arrest was warranted by any measure. She had been drinking. That she came in under the limit doesn't make the arrest unwarranted. What do you expect the guard to do under those circumstances?
The release of her arrest to the media was obviously completely out of order - the arrest was a different matter.

marienbad

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a salary cap. Not an earnings cap. Just because it has to be paid doesn't mean it's part of the basic salary.

So the SF policy would limit salaries to 100 k but would allow any level of ot on top of that ?

oscarBravo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you believe the PNSI is completely above board in everything they do?

I don't.

I don't believe any police force is free from private agendas at play on the part of some members of the force.

Neither do I. That's a world apart from the categorical statement of incontrovertible fact that has been made again and again and again and again over the past few days that the very fact of questioning Gerry Adams was motivated solely by a desire to damage Sinn Féin (and, in a breathtaking display of doublethink by precisely the same commentators, they are crowing about how this dastardly plan to destroy SF is going to copperfasten the party's success) and that there is no conceivable possibility that the police were actually doing their jobs.

Do you believe every 'arrest' is justified as there is no smoke without fire?

Do you believe every arrest is politically motivated?

Don't bother answering, it's a stupid question, designed solely to illustrate the logical fallacy that you've bought wholeheartedly into. I'm not a Gerry Adams fan, but not once have I stated categorically that the only reason he was arrested is because he was definitely guilty of something, which is in stark contrast to the repeated statements from republicans of the categorical and unequivocal FACT that his arrest was politically motivated.

Dan_Solo

marienbad wrote: »

So the SF policy would limit salaries to 100 k but would allow any level of ot on top of that ?

I've no idea TBH. I'd have to read it again to see if it says earnings or salary.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I said "amongst the highest". You claimed I said "highest". This is obvious to everybody here so don't make a fool of yourself pretending you didn't misquote me.

I didn't misquote you at all.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

In what universe does a 'workshy household' get close to 60k?

I'm not seeing any doctors in the mix there.

alastair

forgetfull_sam wrote: »

consultants do not earn more in the uk than here and GP,s earn far less in the uk than in ireland

Consultants do earn more in the UK.

GP's earn less in the UK - mainly because of the completely different systems in place = NHS v private business model.

forgetfull_sam wrote: »

doctors earn more in the usa than in any other country

ardmacha

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

Firstly the rarity of the jobs depends on what your PhD is in. Jobs in things like computer science exist in Google, IBM etc and posts in third level are not oversubscribed. At present these PhD students can progress when they do find a job. Going back to my point, if the head of the university earns €100,000 what will a lecturer earn? Bad enough to have problems starting but then a failure to have any progression would wreck education.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

I'm not seeing any doctors in the mix there.

Er, that's kinda the point?
Most places on earth academics and medics are more even in salary. What is it about Irish doctors that means they deserve multiples of an academic's salary? Have you got a table to show they are twice as good as a German doctor to have earned this?

Dan_Solo

ardmacha wrote: »

Firstly the rarity of the jobs depends on what your PhD is in. Jobs in things like computer science exist in Google, IBM etc and posts in third level are not oversubscribed. At present these PhD students can progress when they do find a job. Going back to my point, if the head of the university earns €100,000 what will a lecturer earn? Bad enough to have problems starting but then a failure to have any progression would wreck education.

Head of uni? 200k. All of them.
I doubt there's as many of them as there are 200k consultants.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

Eh - she was arrested for failing to produce a breath sample after being stopped on suspicion of drunk driving. The arrest was warranted by any measure. She had been drinking. That she came in under the limit doesn't make the arrest unwarranted. What do you expect the guard to do under those circumstances?
The release of her arrest to the media was obviously completely out of order - the arrest was a different matter.

Nice re-write of what happened.

JUSTICE MINISTER ALAN Shatter has said today that an “unexpected number” of gardaí accessed the PULSE computer system in relation to the arrest of Clare Daly in January for suspected drink driving.
Daly was pulled over by gardaí for a wrong turn and was arrested after a breathaliser failed to register a reading. Details were quickly leaked to the media but the independent TD was later cleared, with tests showing she was 33 per cent below the allowable limit.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-arrest-garda-leak-848112-Mar2013/

Daly was unable to verify her sobriety because Garda equipment failed. Despite saying she would voluntarily go to the station she was arrested and handcuffed. Her arrest was immediately leaked to the press by member(s) of the force. Other members of the force accessed the details of her arrest on the pulse system in 'unexpected numbers' according to our law abiding asthmatic so can't blow in a breathaliser Minister for Justice.

Malfunctioning Garda equipment is now the basis for legal arrests in Ireland?

If we can have that level of politically influenced shenanigans in our police force which does not police a deeply divided sectarian society it beggers belief that the PNSI are considered so wonderfully free of political motives. I wonder why they even bother with an ombudsman...

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Er, that's kinda the point?
Most places on earth academics and medics are more even in salary. What is it about Irish doctors that means they deserve multiples of an academic's salary? Have you got a table to show they are twice as good as a German doctor to have earned this?

I don't know how many ways there are to say this, but they don't earn twice what the German consultants do. Your 'highest' line is factually incorrect.

Average consultant salary in Germany: €157,000
Irish salary for consultants start at €116,000 and peak at €121,000.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nice re-write of what happened.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-arrest-garda-leak-848112-Mar2013/

Daly was unable to verify her sobriety because Garda equipment failed. Despite saying she would voluntarily go to the station she was arrested and handcuffed. Her arrest was immediately leaked to the press by member(s) of the force. Other members of the force accessed the details of her arrest on the pulse system in 'unexpected numbers' according to our law abiding asthmatic so can't blow in a breathaliser Minister for Justice.

Malfunctioning Garda equipment is now the basis for legal arrests in Ireland?

If we can have that level of politically influenced shenanigans in our police force which does not police a deeply divided sectarian society it beggers belief that the PNSI are considered so wonderfully free of political motives. I wonder why they even bother with an ombudsman...

There's no evidence that the breathaliser was 'malfunctioning' - and that article makes no such claim - here's what Daly herself said:

I had never been breathalysed before. Maybe because I had the cold I couldn’t blow into it sufficiently strongly to register a reading. ‘Then they said: “If you don’t, we’re going to have to arrest you and bring you down to the station.” I said: “Fine.”

So - she failed to produce a breath sample and she was arrested - as is normal:
http://www.thejournal.ie/drink-driving-what-happens-penalties-1277044-Jan2014/

Dan_Solo

Really?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html

alastair wrote: »

I don't know how many ways there are to say this, but they don't earn twice what the German consultants do. Your 'highest' line is factually incorrect.

Average consultant salary in Germany: €157,000
Irish salary for consultants start at €116,000 and peak at €121,000.

recipio

1 To address the original question : Sinn Fein have been trying to coerce one million Unionists into a United Ireland since 1918 - when will the penny drop ?
2. GP's are self employed businessmen who must fund their business,their pensions and pay commercial rates . In the UK the NHS does all that so while their turnover might be higher, their income is not.

Phoebas

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Really?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html

Have the Germans rolled the tanks into Norway again?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Really?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html

Yep - really.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

I'm not seeing any doctors in the mix there.

PhDs are doctors who spend around a decade in university. If you mean only MDs you should have said so- still applies as some of those PhDs are also MDs and work in silly useless things like cancer research - and are earning around the 40k mark with little or no job security and yet they stay.

UCC has a whole centre dedicated to medical research packed with doctors of the MD/PhD verity and, bar a few at the very top, most are earning far less than 60k and there is no overtime. It also trains nurses and employs staff who are medically trained and qualified to doctorate level to teach them - when it does take on new staff the starting wage is under the bar and around 40k yet attracts hundreds of applicants.

I'm not seeing any evidence that there are 'workshy households' on close to 60k.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

PhDs are doctors who spend around a decade in university. If you mean only MDs you should have said so- still applies as some of those PhDs are also MDs and work in silly useless things like cancer research - and are earning around the 40k mark with little or no job security and yet they stay.

The discussion was about doctors - and specifically consultants, in the health sector - not academics.

No thoughts on 'malfunctioning' breathalisers then?

Nodin

alastair wrote: »

The discussion was about doctors - and specifically consultants, in the health sector - not academics.

What's a "workshy" household? How many of them are there?

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

There's no evidence that the breathaliser was 'malfunctioning' - and that article makes no such claim - here's what Daly herself said:


So - she failed to produce a breath sample and she was arrested - as is normal:
http://www.thejournal.ie/drink-driving-what-happens-penalties-1277044-Jan2014/

Daly was pulled over by gardaí for a wrong turn and was arrested after a breathaliser failed to register a reading.

'Failed to register a reading' = nothing to register or Not working correctly.
If the former = no charge.
If the latter = go to station and repeat test.

Why was it necessary she was handcuffed?

Do you intent to disregard the leaks and accessing of the pulse system? Do you wish to explain why Alan Shatter was not arrested and handcuffed when he really did refuse to give a breathalyser test?


No...no politics in Irish policing. None at all at all.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

The discussion was about doctors - and specifically consultants, in the health sector - not academics.

No thoughts on 'malfunctioning' breathalisers then?

Cork University Hospital and the Mercy University hospital aren't in the health care system. Gosh...I wonder if UCC knows that..

Did you miss the bit where I mentioned academics can also be medical doctors and some of them are even consultants - they would be the ones addressed as 'professor' rather than 'mister' and earn a gobsmaking amount of money. Indeed, they make up the bulk of the highest paid staff at UCC but tend to leave the 40k minions do the heaving lifting when it comes to actual work.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Yep - really.

Because you said so?
Remember, we're talking regular consultant public sector pay. Not head of department including private practice.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Failed to register a reading' = nothing to register or Not working correctly.

It'll only register if you blow properly. No-one claimed it wasn't working properly - The fault was in not blowing correctly - which is what Daly says happened.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If the former = no charge.

If it registers a negative - sure.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If the latter = go to station and repeat test.

Arrest and brought to station.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why was it necessary she was handcuffed?

No idea. But I'm not arguing she should have been handcuffed, just that her arrest was standard practice under the circumstances.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you intent to disregard the leaks and accessing of the pulse system?

I didn't.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you wish to explain why Alan Shatter was not arrested and handcuffed when he really did refuse to give a breathalyser test?

Not really - do you want to sidestep the point I was making?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No...no politics in Irish policing. None at all at all.

Strawman.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Because you said so?
Remember, we're talking regular consultant public sector pay. Not head of department including private practice.

Because those are the figures in Ireland and Germany - not head of department, just (German) average consultancy pay.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Cork University Hospital and the Mercy University hospital aren't in the health care system. Gosh...I wonder if UCC knows that..

Did you miss the bit where I mentioned academics can also be medical doctors and some of them are even consultants - they would be the ones addressed as 'professor' rather than 'mister' and earn a gobsmaking amount of money. Indeed, they make up the bulk of the highest paid staff at UCC but tend to leave the 40k minions do the heaving lifting when it comes to actual work.

yeah yeah - now point me to the health sector consultants in your original post:

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

In what universe does a 'workshy household' get close to 60k?

A "decade in university and now looking for lecturer posts"? Not much evidence of consultancy positions there, eh?

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

It'll only register if you blow properly. No-one claimed it wasn't working properly - The fault was in not blowing correctly - which is what Daly says happened.


If it registers a negative - sure.


Arrest and brought to station.





No idea. But I'm not arguing she should have been handcuffed, just that her arrest was standard practice under the circumstances.


I didn't.


Not really - do you want to sidestep the point I was making?


Strawman.

IF it is 'standard practice' why wasn't Shatter arrested and taken to the station in handcuffs?

If you think the fact that a police force leaked news of the arrest and handcuffing of a member of parliament during the same time period that she also happened to be quite vocal in her questioning of some of their 'standard practices (and justifiably critical as it turned out) is a strawman than my time would be better served walking my dogs .

alastair

Nodin wrote: »

What's a "workshy" household? How many of them are there?

I've no idea. Ask the supposed socialist who posited the idea?

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Because those are the figures in Ireland and Germany - not head of department, just (German) average consultancy pay.

For a second time then. Source.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

For a second time then. Source.

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CE4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rijksoverheid.nl%2Fbestanden%2Fdocumenten-en-publicaties%2Frapporten%2F2012%2F10%2F04%2Fremuneration-of-medical-specialists%2Fremuneration-of-medical-specialists.pdf&ei=2pzyUIbWOsKS0QX204DwDw&usg=AFQjCNH71RC3ZassvV2JHDC4IvjK_oGOnA&sig2=i09h8t3Il3DceyO1afjHlg

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

http://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&ved=0CE4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rijksoverheid.nl%2Fbestanden%2Fdocumenten-en-publicaties%2Frapporten%2F2012%2F10%2F04%2Fremuneration-of-medical-specialists%2Fremuneration-of-medical-specialists.pdf&ei=2pzyUIbWOsKS0QX204DwDw&usg=AFQjCNH71RC3ZassvV2JHDC4IvjK_oGOnA&sig2=i09h8t3Il3DceyO1afjHlg

Ah, so you got the 157k from the table of "self employed specialists"
Now, one more time: what is the public sector consultant salary?

Zubeneschamali

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All of them believe it it time to stop the if it's not FF it must be FG cycle. All of them believe different standards are being applied and different sets of criteria at at play.

I am not particularly worried about the idea that SF will get in as part of a coalition. I would prefer that they don't get in while the IRA crowd are still in charge, but it won't be the end of the world.

The people who will be horrified are the people who vote them in, when they have to compromise so as to get some of their agenda implemented. Take any Gilmour speech from this Government and imagine Mary Lou giving it, that's what it'll be like.

But with less dissension in the SF ranks, because, well, you know.

Bannasidhe

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I am not particularly worried about the idea that SF will get in as part of a coalition. I would prefer that they don't get in while the IRA crowd are still in charge, but it won't be the end of the world.

The people who will be horrified are the people who vote them in, when they have to compromise so as to get some of their agenda implemented. Take any Gilmour speech from this Government and imagine Mary Lou giving it, that's what it'll be like.

But with less dissension in the SF ranks, because, well, you know.

because they will get kicked out of the party as happens in the other parties (*coff* Lucinda *coff*) ? You surely cannot be suggesting they will be...made to disappear....:eek:

Do I want an SF government now?

Sweetest divine no.

I want a left-wing candidate from a left-wing party or alliance which I feel has a chance of possibly forming a coalition government and I cannot bring myself to vote for Kathleen Lynch again.

Dan_Solo

Haha, you think SF will bend over as far as Labour do every last time for a bit of power? Unlikely.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Ah, so you got the 157k from the table of "self employed specialists"
Now, one more time: what is the public sector consultant salary?

If you want to focus on fully publicly salaried German consultants - then the average salary is €121,097 in 2009 - again above the maximum allowed here.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

If you want to focus on fully publicly salaried German consultants - then the average salary is €121,097 in 2009 - again above the maximum allowed here.

Not clever enough wording I'm afraid.
That's the minimum starting salary for a new consultant in Ireland. Not the average for an Irish consultant.

So anyway, now you've convinced me that Irish consultants are pitifully underpaid McJob slaves, why would there be a problem with a 100k salary cap then? Sure that's about all they're getting anyway, right? Right?

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

IF it is 'standard practice' why wasn't Shatter arrested and taken to the station in handcuffs?

Because you either buy Shatter's story that he was waved on after he explained about his asthma - in which case the Guard was at fault for using their discretion after that right had been removed, or you buy the Guard's statement, that Shatter invoked Dail privilege, in which case she couldn't stop him. In either case - it doesn't apply to Daly's experience.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If you think the fact that a police force leaked news of the arrest and handcuffing of a member of parliament during the same time period that she also happened to be quite vocal in her questioning of some of their 'standard practices (and justifiably critical as it turned out) is a strawman than my time would be better served walking my dogs .

It's a strawman because I never disputed anything other than her arrest was normal procedure under the circumstances.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not clever enough wording I'm afraid.
That's the minimum starting salary for a new consultant in Ireland. Not the average for an Irish consultant.

That's above the maximum salary for a consultancy position in Ireland.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So anyway, now you've convinced me that Irish consultants are pitifully underpaid McJob slaves, why would there be a problem with a 100k salary cap then? Sure that's about all they're getting anyway, right? Right?

The SF policy is a levy on income over €100,000, which would take in quite a few doctors asides from consultants - and I'll repeat what I already stated - I'm not comfortable with emptying the coffers of our doctors to usher in those prepared to work to a discount.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

That's above the maximum salary for a consultancy position in Ireland.


The SF policy is a levy on income over €100,000, which would take in quite a few doctors asides from consultants - and I'll repeat what I already stated - I'm not comfortable with emptying the coffers of our doctors to usher in those prepared to work to a discount.

What makes MDs so privileged?