Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Never said that. Nobody did.
The base salary is still under the proposed 100k public sector cap which is what we were discussing.

That's not what SF say though:

The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has withdrawn these terms for new entrants, but existing top civil servants will still avail of them on retirement. This proposal places an emergency levy on all those civil and public servants earning in excess of €100,000 p/a.

That's earnings - not base salary.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/budget-2013-tax-and-savings#.U2d1M8dZ8ls

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

That's not what SF say though:


That's earnings - not base salary.
http://www.sinnfein.ie/budget-2013-tax-and-savings#.U2d1M8dZ8ls

That's an income levy. Not a wealth tax. We already have plenty of those from FF and FG.
Besides, that's only fair for civil servants currently on over 100k, when new entrants can never get the same fabulous salary.
FF/FG brought in a 10% cut for new entrants already remember.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

That's an income levy. Not a wealth tax. We already have plenty of those from FF and FG.

True, I put my hands up there. Now - the likely reaction to those income levy's? Doctors are very much in demand abroad.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well,

All I can say is that yesterday during a lull in a pub quiz some of my fellow team mates began to discuss SF. All left-wing, all highly educated, all professional people ranging from a senior manager in a multinational to a barrister to academics from different disciplines.

All of them raised the same points I have raised here. All of them believe it it time to stop the if it's not FF it must be FG cycle. All of them believe different standards are being applied and different sets of criteria at at play.

I knew SF are attracting the Left-Wing middle class vote but I was surprised at the extent and the anger that was displayed. The barrister, in particular, went off on a legalise rant about the arrest of Adams and admitted it was that action that finally convinced her.

I would not normally query a personal anecdote but as you introduced it -
You had an private executive and a barrister and the remainder academics employed by ?

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

True, I put my hands up there. Now - the likely reaction to those income levy's? Doctors are very much in demand abroad.

The likely reaction? Goodbye?
Ireland has amongst the highest paid doctors in the world. Why? Do you think our health system is amazing?

oscarBravo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The barrister, in particular, went off on a legalise rant about the arrest of Adams and admitted it was that action that finally convinced her.

So this barrister believes, as so many here clearly do, that the PSNI should have considered the political implications before questioning someone - who had voluntarily made himself available for questioning - in a murder investigation?

The funniest part of this whole story is how every single aspect of it is being spun as a PR win for Sinn Féin. Adams makes himself available for questioning, and the police question him: the feckin' RUC are up to their old tricks again, this will quadruple SF's vote. If he had made himself available for questioning and they hadn't questioned him: he called their bluff and they bottled it. This will quadruple SF's vote. They released him without charge: this is incontrovertible proof that they never had any reason to question him, which means the feckin' RUC are up to their old tricks again, yadda yadda. If they had charged him: the durty feckers framed him for something we all know for an incontrovertible fact he didn't do ('cos he denies it, so that's an end to the matter), vote quadrupled blah blah.

Alastair Campbell is surely out there somewhere furiously scribbling notes.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The likely reaction? Goodbye?
Ireland has amongst the highest paid doctors in the world. Why? Do you think our health system is amazing?

I wouldn't be highly enthused about emptying out our coffers of existing doctors and bringing in those willing to work at a discount tbh.

alastair

oscarBravo wrote: »

Alastair Campbell is surely out there somewhere furiously scribbling notes.

Meanwhile the most concerning aspect of the whole thing, as far as neutral observers are concerned is this:
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/liam-clarke/martin-mcguinness-must-manage-his-anger-better-or-the-hole-we-are-all-in-will-get-bigger-30239802.html

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

I wouldn't be highly enthused about emptying out our coffers of existing doctors and bringing in those willing to work at a discount tbh.

Are you suggesting German and French consultants who would easily fit under a 100,000 cap are "discount" doctors?
I'll ask again: what's so special about Irish doctors that they are amongst the highest paid on earth?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Are you suggesting German and French consultants who would easily fit under a 100,000 cap are "discount" doctors?
I'll ask again: what's so special about Irish doctors that they are amongst the highest paid on earth?

Do you see any German or French doctors currently opting to work here, under the supposedly 'highest paid on earth' scenario? What makes you believe they would want to under a lower-paid scenario?

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Do you see any German or French doctors currently opting to work here, under the supposedly 'highest paid on earth' scenario? What makes you believe they would want to under a lower-paid scenario?

You are assuming all workers just move to where the highest salaries are. This appears to be more an Irish doctor thing than anywhere else.
Again: what aspect of Irish doctor performance makes you think they should be so highly paid in world terms?

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

I would not normally query a personal anecdote but as you introduced it -
You had an private executive and a barrister and the remainder academics employed by ?

Yup.

An annual pub quiz - 30th year - held as part of the Cork Women's Fun Weekend. You can google the existence of the event if you wish.

Did you know it is possible to be an academic and self-employed? Two of them fit that category and are doing quite well for themselves, the other is employed by an NUI university.

Executive works for a certain large multinational manufacturer of computers and phone and tablets and the like.

The Barrister is in chambers (and qualified to practice in 3 different jurisdictions)

Among those attending were scientists, artists, musicians, BAFTA award winning actors, film makers, solicitors, nurses, doctors (MD and PhD), Members of the defence forces and Guards etc etc as lesbians really are everywhere.

Dan_Solo

And again, the only poor downtrodden public servant we ever hear about is the baby saving consultant.
Do you think bed managers should also be on over 100,000? What about county managers on double that?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You are assuming all workers just move to where the highest salaries are. This appears to be more an Irish doctor thing than anywhere else.

Not really. And yes - the prime motivators for movement would be salary and clinical advancement - something more easily attained outside Ireland, than in.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Again: what aspect of Irish doctor performance makes you think they should be so highly paid in world terms?

I don't believe this highest paid in the world line. Consultants get paid more in the UK then here for instance, and certainly much more in the US.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And again, the only poor downtrodden public servant we ever hear about is the baby saving consultant.

I'm simply responding to your erroneous claim that regular doctors were not earning over €100,000.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Not really. And yes - the prime motivators for movement would be salary and clinical advancement - something more easily attained outside Ireland, than in.


I don't believe this highest paid in the world line. Consultants get paid more in the UK then here for instance, and certainly much more in the US.

Doctors have NEVER been coming here from France and Germany. Why is that? The only answer is that they're not just in it for the money...
Oh, we've moved the goalposts to "highest" I see. Why did you do that? You found two countries (neither of whom are bankrupt) that pay similar levels to Ireland. Well done.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

I'm simply responding to your erroneous claim that regular doctors were not earning over €100,000.

And it turned out that on basic salary I was 100% correct.
Overtime is not considered normal salary.
Try again.

marienbad

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Doctors have NEVER been coming here from France and Germany. Why is that? The only answer is that they're not just in it for the money...
Oh, we've moved the goalposts to "highest" I see. Why did you do that? You found two countries (neither of whom are bankrupt) that pay similar levels to Ireland. Well done.

Dan, you have lost me at this stage - what exactly is your point ?

Bannasidhe

oscarBravo wrote: »

So this barrister believes, as so many here clearly do, that the PSNI should have considered the political implications before questioning someone - who had voluntarily made himself available for questioning - in a murder investigation?

The funniest part of this whole story is how every single aspect of it is being spun as a PR win for Sinn Féin. Adams makes himself available for questioning, and the police question him: the feckin' RUC are up to their old tricks again, this will quadruple SF's vote. If he had made himself available for questioning and they hadn't questioned him: he called their bluff and they bottled it. This will quadruple SF's vote. They released him without charge: this is incontrovertible proof that they never had any reason to question him, which means the feckin' RUC are up to their old tricks again, yadda yadda. If they had charged him: the durty feckers framed him for something we all know for an incontrovertible fact he didn't do ('cos he denies it, so that's an end to the matter), vote quadrupled blah blah.

Alastair Campbell is surely out there somewhere furiously scribbling notes.

The barrister believes that hearsay is not admissible in a court of law and the tapes are indeed hearsay, furthermore the barrister questions the timing of events given the tapes have been in the possession of the PNSI since last July. Adams could have been asked to come in months ago.

Do you believe the PNSI is completely above board in everything they do?

I don't.

I don't believe any police force is free from private agendas at play on the part of some members of the force.

Do you believe every 'arrest' is justified as there is no smoke without fire?
You might want to ask Claire Daly how she feels about that attitude. Her arrest and subsequent handcuffing was trumpeted across the media and guess what - she was completely innocent.

ardmacha

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I just don't get the argument: "oh no, public servants we can't afford will leave the country!"
So? We can't get a civil servant to work for 100k? Good riddance.

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

Dan_Solo

marienbad wrote: »

Dan, you have lost me at this stage - what exactly is your point ?

The claim was that we need 200k salaries for consultants or they will leave. The point is that other, not bankrupt, European countries have consultants on under a proposed 100k salary cap.
Are our consultants so good they're deserve twice what a German consultant gets?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Doctors have NEVER been coming here from France and Germany. Why is that? The only answer is that they're not just in it for the money...
Oh, we've moved the goalposts to "highest" I see. Why did you do that? You found two countries (neither of whom are bankrupt) that pay similar levels to Ireland. Well done.

Ehh - you said:

I'll ask again: what's so special about Irish doctors that they are amongst the highest paid on earth?

So I'm not shifting your goalposts a jot.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

And it turned out that on basic salary I was 100% correct.
Overtime is not considered normal salary.
Try again.

Earnings are earnings.

You said:

What makes you think doctors and professors get over 100,000? As far as I can tell only consultants do.

Backpedalling about base salary is a bit lame tbh.

Dan_Solo

ardmacha wrote: »

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

Like I already said, those salaries are considered the norm in other, not bankrupt, European countries. Are our doctors twice as good as French doctors?

pablo128

ardmacha wrote: »

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

So when it comes to water charges, we have no choice in the matter as we 'need' the money. But when it comes to the doctors, we have no choice but to pay them or they'll all run away. Some country we live in.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Earnings are earnings.

You said:


Backpedalling about base salary is a bit lame tbh.

So if you are talking about overtime pay which is irrelevant to a basic pay salary cap and get called out on it, I am back pedalling?
Laughable.

marienbad

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So if you are talking about overtime pay which is irrelevant to a basic pay salary cap and get called out on it, I am back pedalling?
Laughable.

You really can't discount overtime though, at least not in this case as it is mandatory and in a sense is factored in to the overall budget.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Ehh - you said:

So I'm not shifting your goalposts a jot.

I said "amongst the highest". You claimed I said "highest". This is obvious to everybody here so don't make a fool of yourself pretending you didn't misquote me.

Bannasidhe

ardmacha wrote: »

All this would mean is that wealthy people could still access good doctors privately, while everyone else would have to do with a cut price doctor. Ireland of equals, indeed.

It is not only a question of people's interest in money, who wants to work in a service where your salary is a political football rather than based on your performance? And if the top guy gets €100,00 what does his assistant or junior colleague get? Are these people to get €60,000? You'd have people with a decade of third level training getting no more than workshy households.

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

In what universe does a 'workshy household' get close to 60k?

Dan_Solo

marienbad wrote: »

You really can't discount overtime though, at least not in this case as it is mandatory and in a sense is factored in to the overall budget.

It's a salary cap. Not an earnings cap. Just because it has to be paid doesn't mean it's part of the basic salary.