Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

Dan_Solo

So, nobody's going to pretend that Irish doctors are worth twice a German or French doctor based on their performance.
Glad we've put that one to bed at least.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The barrister believes that hearsay is not admissible in a court of law and the tapes are indeed hearsay, furthermore the barrister questions the timing of events given the tapes have been in the possession of the PNSI since last July. Adams could have been asked to come in months ago.

Do you believe the PNSI is completely above board in everything they do?

I don't.

I don't believe any police force is free from private agendas at play on the part of some members of the force.

Do you believe every 'arrest' is justified as there is no smoke without fire?
You might want to ask Claire Daly how she feels about that attitude. Her arrest and subsequent handcuffing was trumpeted across the media and guess what - she was completely innocent.

Eh - she was arrested for failing to produce a breath sample after being stopped on suspicion of drunk driving. The arrest was warranted by any measure. She had been drinking. That she came in under the limit doesn't make the arrest unwarranted. What do you expect the guard to do under those circumstances?
The release of her arrest to the media was obviously completely out of order - the arrest was a different matter.

marienbad

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a salary cap. Not an earnings cap. Just because it has to be paid doesn't mean it's part of the basic salary.

So the SF policy would limit salaries to 100 k but would allow any level of ot on top of that ?

oscarBravo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you believe the PNSI is completely above board in everything they do?

I don't.

I don't believe any police force is free from private agendas at play on the part of some members of the force.

Neither do I. That's a world apart from the categorical statement of incontrovertible fact that has been made again and again and again and again over the past few days that the very fact of questioning Gerry Adams was motivated solely by a desire to damage Sinn Féin (and, in a breathtaking display of doublethink by precisely the same commentators, they are crowing about how this dastardly plan to destroy SF is going to copperfasten the party's success) and that there is no conceivable possibility that the police were actually doing their jobs.

Do you believe every 'arrest' is justified as there is no smoke without fire?

Do you believe every arrest is politically motivated?

Don't bother answering, it's a stupid question, designed solely to illustrate the logical fallacy that you've bought wholeheartedly into. I'm not a Gerry Adams fan, but not once have I stated categorically that the only reason he was arrested is because he was definitely guilty of something, which is in stark contrast to the repeated statements from republicans of the categorical and unequivocal FACT that his arrest was politically motivated.

Dan_Solo

marienbad wrote: »

So the SF policy would limit salaries to 100 k but would allow any level of ot on top of that ?

I've no idea TBH. I'd have to read it again to see if it says earnings or salary.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I said "amongst the highest". You claimed I said "highest". This is obvious to everybody here so don't make a fool of yourself pretending you didn't misquote me.

I didn't misquote you at all.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

In what universe does a 'workshy household' get close to 60k?

I'm not seeing any doctors in the mix there.

alastair

forgetfull_sam wrote: »

consultants do not earn more in the uk than here and GP,s earn far less in the uk than in ireland

Consultants do earn more in the UK.

GP's earn less in the UK - mainly because of the completely different systems in place = NHS v private business model.

forgetfull_sam wrote: »

doctors earn more in the usa than in any other country

ardmacha

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

Firstly the rarity of the jobs depends on what your PhD is in. Jobs in things like computer science exist in Google, IBM etc and posts in third level are not oversubscribed. At present these PhD students can progress when they do find a job. Going back to my point, if the head of the university earns €100,000 what will a lecturer earn? Bad enough to have problems starting but then a failure to have any progression would wreck education.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

I'm not seeing any doctors in the mix there.

Er, that's kinda the point?
Most places on earth academics and medics are more even in salary. What is it about Irish doctors that means they deserve multiples of an academic's salary? Have you got a table to show they are twice as good as a German doctor to have earned this?

Dan_Solo

ardmacha wrote: »

Firstly the rarity of the jobs depends on what your PhD is in. Jobs in things like computer science exist in Google, IBM etc and posts in third level are not oversubscribed. At present these PhD students can progress when they do find a job. Going back to my point, if the head of the university earns €100,000 what will a lecturer earn? Bad enough to have problems starting but then a failure to have any progression would wreck education.

Head of uni? 200k. All of them.
I doubt there's as many of them as there are 200k consultants.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

Eh - she was arrested for failing to produce a breath sample after being stopped on suspicion of drunk driving. The arrest was warranted by any measure. She had been drinking. That she came in under the limit doesn't make the arrest unwarranted. What do you expect the guard to do under those circumstances?
The release of her arrest to the media was obviously completely out of order - the arrest was a different matter.

Nice re-write of what happened.

JUSTICE MINISTER ALAN Shatter has said today that an “unexpected number” of gardaí accessed the PULSE computer system in relation to the arrest of Clare Daly in January for suspected drink driving.
Daly was pulled over by gardaí for a wrong turn and was arrested after a breathaliser failed to register a reading. Details were quickly leaked to the media but the independent TD was later cleared, with tests showing she was 33 per cent below the allowable limit.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-arrest-garda-leak-848112-Mar2013/

Daly was unable to verify her sobriety because Garda equipment failed. Despite saying she would voluntarily go to the station she was arrested and handcuffed. Her arrest was immediately leaked to the press by member(s) of the force. Other members of the force accessed the details of her arrest on the pulse system in 'unexpected numbers' according to our law abiding asthmatic so can't blow in a breathaliser Minister for Justice.

Malfunctioning Garda equipment is now the basis for legal arrests in Ireland?

If we can have that level of politically influenced shenanigans in our police force which does not police a deeply divided sectarian society it beggers belief that the PNSI are considered so wonderfully free of political motives. I wonder why they even bother with an ombudsman...

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Er, that's kinda the point?
Most places on earth academics and medics are more even in salary. What is it about Irish doctors that means they deserve multiples of an academic's salary? Have you got a table to show they are twice as good as a German doctor to have earned this?

I don't know how many ways there are to say this, but they don't earn twice what the German consultants do. Your 'highest' line is factually incorrect.

Average consultant salary in Germany: €157,000
Irish salary for consultants start at €116,000 and peak at €121,000.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Nice re-write of what happened.

http://www.thejournal.ie/clare-daly-arrest-garda-leak-848112-Mar2013/

Daly was unable to verify her sobriety because Garda equipment failed. Despite saying she would voluntarily go to the station she was arrested and handcuffed. Her arrest was immediately leaked to the press by member(s) of the force. Other members of the force accessed the details of her arrest on the pulse system in 'unexpected numbers' according to our law abiding asthmatic so can't blow in a breathaliser Minister for Justice.

Malfunctioning Garda equipment is now the basis for legal arrests in Ireland?

If we can have that level of politically influenced shenanigans in our police force which does not police a deeply divided sectarian society it beggers belief that the PNSI are considered so wonderfully free of political motives. I wonder why they even bother with an ombudsman...

There's no evidence that the breathaliser was 'malfunctioning' - and that article makes no such claim - here's what Daly herself said:

I had never been breathalysed before. Maybe because I had the cold I couldn’t blow into it sufficiently strongly to register a reading. ‘Then they said: “If you don’t, we’re going to have to arrest you and bring you down to the station.” I said: “Fine.”

So - she failed to produce a breath sample and she was arrested - as is normal:
http://www.thejournal.ie/drink-driving-what-happens-penalties-1277044-Jan2014/

Dan_Solo

Really?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html

alastair wrote: »

I don't know how many ways there are to say this, but they don't earn twice what the German consultants do. Your 'highest' line is factually incorrect.

Average consultant salary in Germany: €157,000
Irish salary for consultants start at €116,000 and peak at €121,000.

recipio

1 To address the original question : Sinn Fein have been trying to coerce one million Unionists into a United Ireland since 1918 - when will the penny drop ?
2. GP's are self employed businessmen who must fund their business,their pensions and pay commercial rates . In the UK the NHS does all that so while their turnover might be higher, their income is not.

Phoebas

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Really?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html

Have the Germans rolled the tanks into Norway again?

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Really?
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/even-norways-medical-elite-can-only-dream-of-our-docs-whopping-wages-28821752.html

Yep - really.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

I'm not seeing any doctors in the mix there.

PhDs are doctors who spend around a decade in university. If you mean only MDs you should have said so- still applies as some of those PhDs are also MDs and work in silly useless things like cancer research - and are earning around the 40k mark with little or no job security and yet they stay.

UCC has a whole centre dedicated to medical research packed with doctors of the MD/PhD verity and, bar a few at the very top, most are earning far less than 60k and there is no overtime. It also trains nurses and employs staff who are medically trained and qualified to doctorate level to teach them - when it does take on new staff the starting wage is under the bar and around 40k yet attracts hundreds of applicants.

I'm not seeing any evidence that there are 'workshy households' on close to 60k.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

PhDs are doctors who spend around a decade in university. If you mean only MDs you should have said so- still applies as some of those PhDs are also MDs and work in silly useless things like cancer research - and are earning around the 40k mark with little or no job security and yet they stay.

The discussion was about doctors - and specifically consultants, in the health sector - not academics.

No thoughts on 'malfunctioning' breathalisers then?

Nodin

alastair wrote: »

The discussion was about doctors - and specifically consultants, in the health sector - not academics.

What's a "workshy" household? How many of them are there?

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

There's no evidence that the breathaliser was 'malfunctioning' - and that article makes no such claim - here's what Daly herself said:


So - she failed to produce a breath sample and she was arrested - as is normal:
http://www.thejournal.ie/drink-driving-what-happens-penalties-1277044-Jan2014/

Daly was pulled over by gardaí for a wrong turn and was arrested after a breathaliser failed to register a reading.

'Failed to register a reading' = nothing to register or Not working correctly.
If the former = no charge.
If the latter = go to station and repeat test.

Why was it necessary she was handcuffed?

Do you intent to disregard the leaks and accessing of the pulse system? Do you wish to explain why Alan Shatter was not arrested and handcuffed when he really did refuse to give a breathalyser test?


No...no politics in Irish policing. None at all at all.

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

The discussion was about doctors - and specifically consultants, in the health sector - not academics.

No thoughts on 'malfunctioning' breathalisers then?

Cork University Hospital and the Mercy University hospital aren't in the health care system. Gosh...I wonder if UCC knows that..

Did you miss the bit where I mentioned academics can also be medical doctors and some of them are even consultants - they would be the ones addressed as 'professor' rather than 'mister' and earn a gobsmaking amount of money. Indeed, they make up the bulk of the highest paid staff at UCC but tend to leave the 40k minions do the heaving lifting when it comes to actual work.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Yep - really.

Because you said so?
Remember, we're talking regular consultant public sector pay. Not head of department including private practice.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Failed to register a reading' = nothing to register or Not working correctly.

It'll only register if you blow properly. No-one claimed it wasn't working properly - The fault was in not blowing correctly - which is what Daly says happened.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If the former = no charge.

If it registers a negative - sure.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If the latter = go to station and repeat test.

Arrest and brought to station.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why was it necessary she was handcuffed?

No idea. But I'm not arguing she should have been handcuffed, just that her arrest was standard practice under the circumstances.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you intent to disregard the leaks and accessing of the pulse system?

I didn't.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you wish to explain why Alan Shatter was not arrested and handcuffed when he really did refuse to give a breathalyser test?

Not really - do you want to sidestep the point I was making?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No...no politics in Irish policing. None at all at all.

Strawman.

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Because you said so?
Remember, we're talking regular consultant public sector pay. Not head of department including private practice.

Because those are the figures in Ireland and Germany - not head of department, just (German) average consultancy pay.

alastair

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Cork University Hospital and the Mercy University hospital aren't in the health care system. Gosh...I wonder if UCC knows that..

Did you miss the bit where I mentioned academics can also be medical doctors and some of them are even consultants - they would be the ones addressed as 'professor' rather than 'mister' and earn a gobsmaking amount of money. Indeed, they make up the bulk of the highest paid staff at UCC but tend to leave the 40k minions do the heaving lifting when it comes to actual work.

yeah yeah - now point me to the health sector consultants in your original post:

We have PhDs who after a decade in university are fighting each other to get some of the very rare under the bar lecturing posts that become available where 60,000 a year would be a dream - they generally start at 35k. Usually these rare jobs go to overseas applicants (sometimes Irish sometimes not) who havea job/ are in post elsewhere and therefore have experience - they start at around 40k.

In what universe does a 'workshy household' get close to 60k?

A "decade in university and now looking for lecturer posts"? Not much evidence of consultancy positions there, eh?

Bannasidhe

alastair wrote: »

It'll only register if you blow properly. No-one claimed it wasn't working properly - The fault was in not blowing correctly - which is what Daly says happened.


If it registers a negative - sure.


Arrest and brought to station.





No idea. But I'm not arguing she should have been handcuffed, just that her arrest was standard practice under the circumstances.


I didn't.


Not really - do you want to sidestep the point I was making?


Strawman.

IF it is 'standard practice' why wasn't Shatter arrested and taken to the station in handcuffs?

If you think the fact that a police force leaked news of the arrest and handcuffing of a member of parliament during the same time period that she also happened to be quite vocal in her questioning of some of their 'standard practices (and justifiably critical as it turned out) is a strawman than my time would be better served walking my dogs .

alastair

Nodin wrote: »

What's a "workshy" household? How many of them are there?

I've no idea. Ask the supposed socialist who posited the idea?

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

Because those are the figures in Ireland and Germany - not head of department, just (German) average consultancy pay.

For a second time then. Source.