Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

maccored

You got all that out of MMG stating that SF might re-assess their view on policing considering how Adams was arrested? Instead of re-assessing it Adams has made an official complain to the PSNI. How did you get all that drama below from that?

LordSutch wrote: »

Well all you had to do was to witness menacing circus that surrounded the detention of the SF Führer leader to witness the mask slipping just enough to know that they are not just any old political party, but a party that can make a threat, with just a whiff of something more sinister should their man not be realeased noy (now).

Scary, bad, with a tendancy to instability (or volitility) should one of the 'collective' be questioned about anything to do with the PIRA. (That's the one that has gone away now) but did exist in the 70s, 80s, 90s, the same one that G.Adams had no connection with at all at all

marienbad

maccored wrote: »

You got all that out of MMG stating that SF might re-assess their view on policing considering how Adams was arrested? Instead of re-assessing it Adams has made an official complain to the PSNI. How did you get all that drama below from that?

Look maccored, there is no denying that the statements by MM were worrying to say the least, and digging a deeper hole by pretending the drama, as you call it , is fabricated is just driving away the very voters you need to reassure.

Nodin

marienbad wrote: »

Things will change ,I'd be fairly sure of it. No comparison with the greens at all

Generally speaking, minority parties in coalitions don't fare well. While I doubt they'd meet the fate of the greens, I doubt they will escape damage.

maccored

At the time, when he made the statement, MMG was pushing the point of political policing. If it was a case of political policing, then he'd be damn right to say they might re-assess their work with the PSNI.

marienbad wrote: »

Look maccored, there is no denying that the statements by MM were worrying to say the least, and digging a deeper hole by pretending the drama, as you call it , is fabricated is just driving away the very voters you need to reassure.

marienbad

Nodin wrote: »

Generally speaking, minority parties in coalitions don't fare well. While I doubt they'd meet the fate of the greens, I doubt they will escape damage.

No doubt Nodin , both parties will be damaged somewhat , but when push come to shove I believe they will get back with a good majority. I just hope FF don't get any benefit.

marienbad

maccored wrote: »

At the time, when he made the statement, MMG was pushing the point of political policing. If it was a case of political policing, then he'd be damn right to say they might re-assess their work with the PSNI.

That is not how it came across - you can't always speak to the converted if you wish to challenge for government.

nagirrac

Godge wrote: »

Pensioners are the one group who escaped best from the austerity over the last few years. Still doing it with the water allowance.

So the thousands of pensioners that have been protesting on the streets, as recently as last October, are just interested in a day out in the big smoke? Or would it have something to do with the elimination of the phone allowance, fuel subsidies being cut, health services being cut, etc. According the CSO, 10% of pensioners in Ireland live in poverty, and that was from 2011, so likely to be much higher now. An absolute disgrace in a country where politicians draw multiple lucrative state pensions while still working, and those responsible for the running and oversight of the economy are still living in luxury.

Godge wrote: »

The only pensioners to have had a cut are the state employee pensioners.

Those are not the people I am referencing, the ordinary rank and file state employees are entitled to their pensions. The individuals I am concerned with are the politicians (of all parties), senior civil servants, and senior banking officials, all of whom are culpable in the economic destruction of the country. Their pensions are untouchable, but it is OK to effectively cut off the telephones of those in rural areas, so they cant call their children who had to emigrate because of the ineptitude and gross negligence of above group?

Godge wrote: »

What you are saying is that people who paid into a pension all their working lives should be reduced to the level of people who sat on their arse the whole time. What a recipe for disaster.

The great majority of pensioners depending on state pensions worked all their lives and paid PRSI, so are as entitled to their pensions as state employees are to theirs. Your characterization of people "sitting on their arses" however is quite informative. Not many sat on their arses in the period current retirees were working, they either worked or emigrated. Sitting on your arse, either on welfare or as a non productive civil servant, is fairly recent development in Ireland. The great majority of current retirees worked all their lives to provide a better future for their children, and deserve better treatment than they are getting.

Karl Stein

Gerry Adams, on release, said they will continue to work with the PSNI and continue to seek closure for victims of the troubles.

It should be noted that Unionists have not signed up to the Haas proposals which would offer limited immunity to belligerents who want to come forward with information regarding the past.

Godge

nagirrac wrote: »

So the thousands of pensioners that have been protesting on the streets, as recently as last October, are just interested in a day out in the big smoke? Or would it have something to do with the elimination of the phone allowance, fuel subsidies being cut, health services being cut, etc. According the CSO, 10% of pensioners in Ireland live in poverty, and that was from 2011, so likely to be much higher now. An absolute disgrace in a country where politicians draw multiple lucrative state pensions while still working, and those responsible for the running and oversight of the economy are still living in luxury. .

The only social welfare payment not cut was the old age pension.

nagirrac wrote: »

Those are not the people I am referencing, the ordinary rank and file state employees are entitled to their pensions. The individuals I am concerned with are the politicians (of all parties), senior civil servants, and senior banking officials, all of whom are culpable in the economic destruction of the country. Their pensions are untouchable, but it is OK to effectively cut off the telephones of those in rural areas, so they cant call their children who had to emigrate because of the ineptitude and gross negligence of above group? .

When the cuts were brought in, those on pensions less than €12,500 were not cut. The cuts that were brought in were higher for those on higher incomes, as much as 30%. What more do you want? There are public servants that worked hard all their lives, doing a great job for their country and have seen their pensions in retirement cut by 30%. You want to cut them more and leave everyone else around.

nagirrac wrote: »

The great majority of pensioners depending on state pensions worked all their lives and paid PRSI, so are as entitled to their pensions as state employees are to theirs. Your characterization of people "sitting on their arses" however is quite informative. Not many sat on their arses in the period current retirees were working, they either worked or emigrated. Sitting on your arse, either on welfare or as a non productive civil servant, is fairly recent development in Ireland. The great majority of current retirees worked all their lives to provide a better future for their children, and deserve better treatment than they are getting.

There are a large number of people out there who worked a bare minimum of a few years who are claiming the old age pension.

Can you define a non-productive civil servant?

nagirrac

Godge wrote: »

The only social welfare payment not cut was the old age pension.

I'm not referencing the old age pension, I'm referencing other benefit cuts. You know, being able to heat your home, make a phone call to a child who has emigrated, that type of thing.

Godge wrote: »

What more do you want? There are public servants that worked hard all their lives, doing a great job for their country and have seen their pensions in retirement cut by 30%. You want to cut them more and leave everyone else around.

I sincerely hope you are not talking about the groups I referenced when you refer to "doing a great job for their country". For the groups I referenced I would like to see their pensions cut 100% and their assets seized.

Godge wrote: »

There are a large number of people out there who worked a bare minimum of a few years who are claiming the old age pension.

Are there? Can you provide some data to back up that statement, # of people who worked a bare minimum versus those who worked all their lives.

Godge wrote: »

Can you define a non-productive civil servant?

Government spending has increased in Ireland from roughly 19B in 1997 to roughly 55B in 2013, an increase of almost 200% or close to tripling. The population has grown by how much? Public services have improved how much in that time? A time period when productivity should be increasing dramatically due to technology i.e. expenditures going down not up. I would say you would have to search really hard to find a more unproductive government, given the expenditures per man, woman and child in the country.

http://www.per.gov.ie/expenditure-trends/

Godge

nagirrac wrote: »

I'm not referencing the old age pension, I'm referencing other benefit cuts. You know, being able to heat your home, make a phone call to a child who has emigrated, that type of thing.

From disability to unemployment to child benefit, every payment was cut except the old age pension. The other packages and benefits for those groups were also cut (e.g. rent allowance). It is only the pensioners who escaped a financial cut to their payment.

nagirrac wrote: »

I sincerely hope you are not talking about the groups I referenced when you refer to "doing a great job for their country". For the groups I referenced I would like to see their pensions cut 100% and their assets seized.
.

You are talking about a small minority of politicians and public servants and to punish a few you want to punish all.

As for cutting by 100%, you are living in dreamland.

nagirrac wrote: »

Government spending has increased in Ireland from roughly 19B in 1997 to roughly 55B in 2013, an increase of almost 200% or close to tripling. The population has grown by how much? Public services have improved how much in that time? A time period when productivity should be increasing dramatically due to technology i.e. expenditures going down not up. I would say you would have to search really hard to find a more unproductive government, given the expenditures per man, woman and child in the country.

http://www.per.gov.ie/expenditure-trends/

You couldn't be further wrong.

There was an OECD study in the last couple of years that showed we had the most productive public service. I haven't time to dig it out now but might in the next few days.

Where we have wasted money is on transfer payments, we are way out of line with other countries with higher social welfare payments and paying childe benefit instead of providing free uniforms, books etc.

Happyman42

Karl Stein wrote: »

Gerry Adams, on release, said they will continue to work with the PSNI and continue to seek closure for victims of the troubles.

It should be noted that Unionists have not signed up to the Haas proposals which would offer limited immunity to belligerents who want to come forward with information regarding the past.

People jump up and down because they where only hearing what they wanted to hear, and EVEN when it is clarified for the slow learners they are STILL jumping up and down. :rolleyes::D

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

People jump up and down because they where only hearing what they wanted to hear, and EVEN when it is clarified for the slow learners they are STILL jumping up and down. :rolleyes::D

Yeah people do tend to hear what to want to hear , You are not immune yourself.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

People jump up and down because they where only hearing what they wanted to hear, and EVEN when it is clarified for the slow learners they are STILL jumping up and down. :rolleyes::D

Meanwhile - those without blinkers are quite clear on McGuinness' message on behalf of SF: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/liam-clarke/martin-mcguinness-must-manage-his-anger-better-or-the-hole-we-are-all-in-will-get-bigger-30239802.html

maccored

Its what he was saying though

marienbad wrote: »

That is not how it came across - you can't always speak to the converted if you wish to challenge for government.

maccored

That heading on that article should really read "The PSNI should cop themselves on" ... pardon the pun

alastair wrote: »

Meanwhile - those without blinkers are quite clear on McGuinness' message on behalf of SF: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/blogs/liam-clarke/martin-mcguinness-must-manage-his-anger-better-or-the-hole-we-are-all-in-will-get-bigger-30239802.html

marienbad

maccored wrote: »

That heading on that article should really read "The PSNI should cop themselves on" ... pardon the pun

If you believe that then you are missing the point , and that is what neutrals and potential voters in the republic find scary.

Lastlight.

The cult revealed itself with Bobby Storey and his pathetic rant and threats on a platform.

maccored

If people ignore the possibility of the PSNI involving themselves in political policing - considering they arrested a TD, held him for 96 hours and released him without charge, to such an extent that the TD made an official complaint - then they have to realise they are ignoring something that could in fact affect the peace process itself.

Personally Im not too worried about "neutrals and potential voters in the republic" to be honest. let people make up their own minds and vote for who they want. Im more concerned about whats going on now in the real world. If SF only worry about gaining votes - which is what you are suggesting - then they would surely be populist.

marienbad wrote: »

If you believe that then you are missing the point , and that is what neutrals and potential voters in the republic find scary.

marienbad

maccored wrote: »

If people ignore the possibility of the PSNI involving themselves in political policing - considering they arrested a TD, held him for 96 hours and released him without charge, to such an extent that the TD made an official complaint - then they have to realise they are ignoring something that could in fact affect the peace process itself.

Personally Im not too worried about "neutrals and potential voters in the republic" to be honest. let people make up their own minds and vote for who they want. Im more concerned about whats going on now in the real world. If SF only worry about gaining votes - which is what you are suggesting - then they would surely be populist.

Jeez ,this is priceless stuff , no one is ignoring the possibility the PSNI may have been politically motivated !!! It is not an either or choice - the PSNi may have been so motivated AND MM scored an own goal .

As for your second paragraph - this is the type of condescension that infuses pro SF posts , the navel gazing the constitutes the view that Northern Ireland is the 'real world' and the Republic isn't .

And by the way every democratic party should worry about gaining votes , otherwise what is their purpose ? They don't have to sell out to do that either , just try and see the bigger picture once in while .

maccored

No - you hang on to that condescension for yourself as I'm grand without it. What I was saying is Im not too worried about SF not talking bull**** just to get votes. Real life - ie anything that affects this whole country - is more important that being populist. Plus, I see you are following suite along with many on here when you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. SF were right, you imply, to ask questions about political motivation ... but yet at the same time MMG scored an own goal by doing so. Thats called trying to have your cake and eat it.

marienbad wrote: »

Jeez ,this is priceless stuff , no one is ignoring the possibility the PSNI may have been politically motivated !!! It is not an either or choice - the PSNi may have been so motivated AND MM scored an own goal .

As for your second paragraph - this is the type of condescension that infuses pro SF posts , the navel gazing the constitutes the view that Northern Ireland is the 'real world' and the Republic isn't .

And by the way every democratic party should worry about gaining votes , otherwise what is their purpose ? They don't have to sell out to do that either , just try and see the bigger picture once in while .

marienbad

maccored wrote: »

No - you hang on to that condescension for yourself as I'm grand without it. What I was saying is Im not too worried about SF not talking bull**** just to get votes. Real life - ie anything that affects this whole country - is more important that being populist. Plus, I see you are following suite along with many on here when you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. SF were right, you imply, to ask questions about political motivation ... but yet at the same time MMG scored an own goal by doing so. Thats called trying to have your cake and eat it.

This is a nonsensical reply ,life or politics is not binary.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

If people ignore the possibility of the PSNI involving themselves in political policing - considering they arrested a TD, held him for 96 hours and released him without charge, to such an extent that the TD made an official complaint - then they have to realise they are ignoring something that could in fact affect the peace process itself.

Personally Im not too worried about "neutrals and potential voters in the republic" to be honest. let people make up their own minds and vote for who they want. Im more concerned about whats going on now in the real world. If SF only worry about gaining votes - which is what you are suggesting - then they would surely be populist.

Who, out on their own, claimed 'the possibility go political policing'? Why it was SF!
Who was arrested, not for no reason, but because they're implicated in a murder? Why a SF politician!
Who made an official complaint? Why that self same politician implicated in a murder! How much merit does a complaint have to have, before it can be made? Why none at all! It can be entirely mischievous, and still 'official'.
Who believes that questioning a murder suspect is potentially going to "affect the peace process"? Why the same party that threatened to 'reflect' on it's support for policing, and told it's supporters to remain calm... until the police charged that suspect - their leader.

Colour me unimpressed.

maccored

alastair wrote: »

Who, out on their own, claimed 'the possibility go political policing'? Why it was SF!

and Im sure plenty of other people too. You dont need to be in SF to think the whole thing is a tad bit strange

Who was arrested, not for no reason, but because they're implicated in a murder? Why a SF politician!

He wasnt guilty of anything alastair. Or at least the PSNI didnt think soas they didnt charge him with anything. Implicated by hearsay isnt really the same thing as actually being involved.

Who made an official complaint? Why that self same politician implicated in a murder! How much merit does a complaint have to have, before it can be made? Why none at all! It can be entirely mischievous, and still 'official'.
Who believes that questioning a murder suspect is potentially going to "affect the peace process"? Why the same party that threatened to 'reflect' on it's support for policing, and told it's supporters to remain calm... until the police charged that suspect - their leader.

Colour me unimpressed.

I'll also colour you a bit silly as well. Who else, alastair, could make a complaint other than the self same person who had been arrested? That whole last bit there makes no sense at all.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Who, out on their own, claimed 'the possibility go political policing'? Why it was SF!
Who was arrested, not for no reason, but because they're implicated in a murder? Why a SF politician!
Who made an official complaint? Why that self same politician implicated in a murder! How much merit does a complaint have to have, before it can be made? Why none at all! It can be entirely mischievous, and still 'official'.
Who believes that questioning a murder suspect is potentially going to "affect the peace process"? Why the same party that threatened to 'reflect' on it's support for policing, and told it's supporters to remain calm... until the police charged that suspect - their leader.

Colour me unimpressed.

Everything stems from the first one. If it was political policing then they are right to be very concerned. That mistake was allowed to happen before and we saw what happened.
Very responsible response, spell out what will happen, no equivocation or spin.

maccored

You are quite right. That was a nonsensical reply, on your behalf. My reply to you was quite easy to follow. You already mentioned how MMG response was something that would alienate neutrals. I pointed out that its not always about winning votes. Sometimes theres real life matters going on that are more important that sound bytes to win over voters. As mentioned, SF dont really do that kind of mealy mouthed populism.

marienbad wrote: »

This is a nonsensical reply ,life or politics is not binary.

alastair

maccored wrote: »

and Im sure plenty of other people too. You dont need to be in SF to think the whole thing is a tad bit strange.

You're sure of that? Because no-one other than SF made that claim that I read.

maccored wrote: »

He wasnt guilty of anything alastair. Or at least the PSNI didnt think soas they didnt charge him with anything. Implicated by hearsay isnt really the same thing as actually being involved..

You don't know what recommendation they sent to the prosecutor. Implicated in a murder is implicated in a murder. Not too many party leaders floating about that this can be said of. Legal guilt is only determined in a court. Even Ivor Bell can't be said to be legally guilty yet - charged or otherwise.

maccored wrote: »

I'll also colour you a bit silly as well. Who else, alastair, could make a complaint other than the self same person who had been arrested? That whole last bit there makes no sense at all.

Then it's a meaningless point to make. Ooh - an 'official complaint'! Something must have been iffy there? Well, no actually. It means nothing.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Everything stems from the first one. If it was political policing then they are right to be very concerned. That mistake was allowed to happen before and we saw what happened.
Very responsible response, spell out what will happen, no equivocation or spin.

SF 'concern' over 'political policing' is about as convincing as any other straw man argument. As in not convincing at all. The fact that no-one else buys their spin says it all.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

SF 'concern' over 'political policing' is about as convincing as any other straw man argument. As in not convincing at all. The fact that no-one else buys their spin says it all.

The bit of McGuinness's speech that the hysterical conveniently ignore.

I want to acknowledge that there are many progressive and open-minded elements in the new policing arrangements who are wedded to accountable and impartial policing.

I want to emphasise my absolute support for them in their efforts to deliver impartial and accountable policing.

But there is a small cabal in the PSNI who have a different agenda – a negative and destructive agenda to both the peace process and to Sinn Féin.

If he is right a(nd SF where right about the disgraced RUC) then MCG was totally right to address it without any spin or equivocation.
It's what I expect of honest politicians.

marienbad

maccored wrote: »

You are quite right. That was a nonsensical reply, on your behalf. My reply to you was quite easy to follow. You already mentioned how MMG response was something that would alienate neutrals. I pointed out that its not always about winning votes. Sometimes theres real life matters going on that are more important that sound bytes to win over voters. As mentioned, SF dont really do that kind of mealy mouthed populism.

More pious nonsense, they don't do mealy mouthed populism ! Instead they make veiled threats undermining the institutes of state !

And yes there are real life issues going on out there , like people loosing their homes, Jobs ,benefits but all take second place to the SF Narcissism.