Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

Dan_Solo

nesf wrote: »

You think university grads can't be economically illiterate? (I'd say terrorists too, but it's not generally held that Sinn Fein voters are terrorists, only that the party has past links with such which is rather different)

Every party has a dodgy past, and I include corruption in that. Except for the Greens and ULA etc.

pablomakaveli

IrishProd wrote: »

This is thread is like a right-wing, pro-unionist, ultra-conservative love-in.

How does not liking Sinn Fein make you any of the above? I don't like Sinn Fein but i'm not right wing, pro-unionist or ultra-conservative.

I can certainly say some of Sinn Feins supporters certainly don't help their partys cause with their attitude such as in the statement above.

mikep

I echo many of the sentiments here about their triumphalism regrding IRA bombers and Garda assasins and also their "dubious" economic policies.

I still shudder at Adams "they haven't gone away, you know" comment back in '95.

walshb

I always get the impression that they are too much no no no. I wouldn't be surprised if they said no to having Christmas twice a year!

Happyman42

endacl wrote: »

I look at my parents' generation. Both from rural towns such as the one you ask us to imagine. Out of six uncles and five aunts combining both sides, there were two who finished secondary school. Most didn't even start this stage. All of their children are educated to at least degree level. Myself and my two sisters have five post-graduate qualifications between us. I don't say this to boast, but to shine a light on your non-point. My parents' families were fairly average for their day. Small farming, and labouring. Myself and my siblings and cousins are fairly average for today. All qualified professionals, doing OK.

Things have improved. Incredibly.

I know it won't suit your rhetoric, but bear in mind that you're talking to the people you're talking about.

marienbad wrote: »

Now you are moving the goalposts, but no matter.

We were way behind the rest of Europe when we gained independence and still some distance behind in the 70's .

As for huge numbers below the poverty line , by today's standard 90% of the population in the 1920's would be below that standard and significant numbers would be below that into the 70's. Our economic progress is undeniable .

And if the last few years has shown us anything it is not the fragility of our economy but its robustness . The biggest crash since the great depression and we are already in recovery mode.

As for 'exploiting our potential' - what does that even mean ? How do you measure it ? It is just another sound bite and one of the reason voters shy away from SF - blasé phrases couples with luddite economics.

Ah here we go.:rolleyes: They say that subjugation will continue down through several generations. And in those two posts we see it clearly.

Yes, our boats rose on rising prosperity in Europe, but they only rose for some.
State and church conspired to keep the people in place, while they raped and plundered the country.
Anybody who is happy with how we have been governed since independence is one of the class that are still suffering from subjugation, having replaced one master with another.
There was huge amounts of money pumped into this country when we joined Europe, was it all spent on bettering things for all the people?
Was it hell, all it did was make the greedy top percent even more greedy and corruptible and there was nobody there to shout STOP.
Now we have effective TD's like Mary Lou and Padraig McLoughlin asking the questions in the PAC's and the establishment don't like it. Somebody wants to stop the gravy train and those citizens (happy with the morsels thrown from the top tables) are afraid they might go hungry.
They ignore the boom and bust (where the same top tier always manage to hold on to their wealth), they are happy and feel 'privileged' with education that they should always had access to, they ignore cyclical mass emigrations of those we do manage to educate, and continue to doff their hats and disparage those who are at least trying to change things.

I find it hard to even pity that mindset.

comongethappy

Still can't drag yourself from the rhetoric game can you Happy?

Just the facts Happy....... Just the facts.

Happyman42

comongethappy wrote: »

Still can't drag yourself from the rhetoric game can you Happy?

Just the facts Happy....... Just the facts.

Are cyclical emigration and boom and burst not FACTS of life here since independence?

Is endemic corruption from the top to the bottom not also a fact?

maccored

The minister for finance is from the DUP, and the dole rates are set in the UK, so no - it doesnt come across as hypocritical especially as both SF and the DUP are fighting to have financial powers transferred to the north so they can actually do something about it. The fact of the matter in reality is that you dont always have to tax to raise money. You can also cut costs.

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Is their council rates in the North? Yes
Is the dole rate much lower in the north? Yes
Who is in power in the North? Sinn fein and DUP.

Does it not come across as hypocritical that down south, SF are promoting a policy of no water charges, no property tax, increase welfare payments etc, yet in the North, where they are in coalition supporting the opposite?

The fact of the matter is, that if SF do come to power with their populist economic policies, water charges will remain, property tax will remain and social payments won't rise like a rocket and for a good reason. If you get rid of one tax, you either have to introduce a new tax, or cut spending. People don't like either.
Or is SF going to tax the non-existent money tree :pac:

comongethappy

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are cyclical emigration and boom and burst not FACTS of life here since independence?

Is endemic corruption from the top to the bottom not also a fact?

No .... Its not!

Ireland is not "endemically corrupt".
Ireland is deemed to be one of the lesser corrupt countries in the world.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

When you can demonstrate how SF are as clean as they come, you may have a point.
Sadly its more empty rhetoric.

But most of all, when you can show how SF have anything approaching a viable plan to make things better...... we are all ears.

Sinn Feinn pray they never actually have to make these decisions.

twowheelsgood

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are cyclical emigration and boom and burst not FACTS of life here since independence?

Is endemic corruption from the top to the bottom not also a fact?

Your contention is that many of the woes in terms of us failing to prosper as much as we might have stems to a degree, if not totally, from partition. Have you anything remotely approaching a credible argument as to why this would be so?

Can you explain the mechanism whereby if the island was a 32 county state all of the suspect politicians we have produced and all of the voters who elect them would never have came to be? And similar for any of our other woes?

AlanG

They want to make millions for the banks and international financiers by borrowing more money rather than making tough decisions.

They allow the established parties shape their economic policy by simply being opposed to almost everything government does.

They have no loyalty to their electorate – both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness abandoned their electorate in Ulster to try and land good pensions in the South.

They implement policies in the North and then claim they are disgraceful if implemented in the South – household charge, water charges.

They still try to justify the killing of members of the Republics security services by saying there are victims on both sides of a war – implying that they see the Republic as their enemy.

Banjo String

AlanG wrote: »

They want to make millions for the banks and international financiers by borrowing more money rather than making tough decisions.

They allow the established parties shape their economic policy by simply being opposed to almost everything government does.

They have no loyalty to their electorate – both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness abandoned their electorate in Ulster to try and land good pensions in the South.

They implement policies in the North and then claim they are disgraceful if implemented in the South – household charge, water charges.

They still try to justify the killing of members of the Republics security services by saying there are victims on both sides of a war – implying that they see the Republic as their enemy.

Misinformed would be an understatement.

knucklehead6

I don't really have a problem with the majority of the personnel involved in SF. They are predominately not people that i would willingly associate with but for the most part i have no issue with them.

I can respect the likes of Martin McGuinness, he openly admits that he was in the IRA, and I may disagree with him on a lot of things (for instance, during the presidential campaign i was surprised that a canny politician like him would make that crass "down here" remark) but i respect him for admitting it.

I have no time whatsoever for Adams, purely because he WON'T admit the same thing, when the world and his mother knows that he was in the IRA at some stage, and his involvement with them was a lot more than being the leader of their political wing.

Get rid of Adams, lose the populist attitude, come up with some coherent policies and I'll consider listening to them. But until that man is gone, I will turn them away at my door and refuse any literature.

(i can already see the replies along the lines of "Political Party Leader Lies Shocker")

Godge

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

The relevance is that both FG and FF's history stems from a bitter Civil war, in which atrocities occurring on both sides.
Just because it happened nearly 100 years ago, doesn't mean that their history is blood free as well.

Those who throw out the line of Ill never vote SF because they shot soldiers, innocent people and police officers in the past also need to remember that some of the most prominent founding members of both FF and FG did the very same.

Don't get me wrong, I hate the IRA for the likes of what happened to jean mcconville, but FF and FG's history isn't blood free

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

But you could argue that the flying column tactics was equally a campaign of terror against the establishment.
we are talking about members of SF, who later joined FF, burning the legitimate owners of property out of their homes, for no reason other than they were pro British.

I just hate the two facedness off the argument that someone can't vote for SF because of what happened during the troubles (which is nearly finished 20 years ago) but can vote for FF or FG even though they committed equally awful atrocities 80 years ago.

After all not all SF members carried a gun, especially their younger candidates. Why should they be tarred with the same brush as Gerry kelly, when Enda isn't tarred with the same brush as kevin O higgins who signed the death warrants of 77 political prisoners. At the end of the day, neither Enda, or SF's young candidates had any involvement in past events.
Just because it happened 90 years ago, doesn't mean that it should be exempted or forgotten for that matter.

Anyway before I get accused of being a shinner, Ill never vote for them, unless their economic policies are in my opinion whats best for the country.

It is not a two-facedness argument, one scenario is ancient history from 100 years ago, the other is the recent past, a living memory for many of us who had to live through the terror created by the SF/IRA axis of evil at the time.

While some of SF have moved away from that recent past, too much of the thinking, the people, the rhetoric and the bile are rooted in that violence which was a crime against the people of Ireland.

The inability to take responsibility for that recent past and own up for the crimes makes SF even more duplicitous. For example, the killing of Jean McConville was either a war crime under the Geneva convention or a brutal murder yet there is nobody in SF who will admit that. Their sympathisers are all over these board defending the indefensible.

Many of us remember these atrocities supposedly committed in our name. We remember people like Garda Fallon and Garda McCabe who died at the hands of these terrorists defending our safety and security.

FF and FG ancestors may have done similar things but it was a long time ago in a world with different standards and different morals.


P.S. The Omagh bombing took place 16 years ago while the Civil War ended 92 years ago, get some dates right.

Dan_Solo

mikep wrote: »

I echo many of the sentiments here about their triumphalism regrding IRA bombers and Garda assasins and also their "dubious" economic policies.

I still shudder at Adams "they haven't gone away, you know" comment back in '95.

I still really don't see this triumphalism. Sinn Fein never talk about any of the NI stuff. It's terrible PR south of the border (although maybe not West of it) and they know it.

Dan_Solo

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Get rid of Adams, lose the populist attitude, come up with some coherent policies and I'll consider listening to them. But until that man is gone, I will turn them away at my door and refuse any literature.

This "populist" term could be applied to any party that promises, whether they keep the promises or not, the electorate what they want. That's what every party tries to do.

mikep

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I still really don't see this triumphalism. Sinn Fein never talk about any of the NI stuff. It's terrible PR south of the border (although maybe not West of it) and they know it.

http://www.herald.ie/news/sinn-feins-ferris-defiant-in-support-for-gardas-killers-as-public-revulsion-grows-27920924.html

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/ferris-defends-meeting-with-released-mccabe-killers-27385970.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-defend-gerry-adams-laissez-faire-comments-over-ruc-deaths-29812389.html

Can't find these bomber link...at work!

Blowfish

Happyman42 wrote: »

Are cyclical emigration and boom and burst not FACTS of life here since independence?

Is endemic corruption from the top to the bottom not also a fact?

So, even if we were to assume that this was a so called fact, nobody on this thread yet has actually produced one credible reason to vote for SF over anybody else who hasn't been in power since independence or even one credible way that SF would have done anything better, where as there have been plenty of reasons given not to vote for them.

Godge

mikep wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/sinn-feins-ferris-defiant-in-support-for-gardas-killers-as-public-revulsion-grows-27920924.html

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/ferris-defends-meeting-with-released-mccabe-killers-27385970.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-defend-gerry-adams-laissez-faire-comments-over-ruc-deaths-29812389.html

Can't find these bomber link...at work!

Utterly despicable comments by those SF politicians. And they are not talking about things that happened 100 years ago, they are talking about recent events.

the_syco

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think what irks most people in the south from FG and FF is that they know that SF will finish the job that their forebears couldn't and indeed wouldn't.

By "finish the job", do you mean "continue to bring in all the taxes like they have done up North if they got into office"?

Happyman42 wrote: »

But this or certainly the next generation will see a united island and a chance to build a proper republic where the people come first.

For economic reasons, mainly the way NI depends on cash flow from both the Republic and the UK, I can't see the Republic taking NI, unless it's forcibly joined, like East and West Germany was joined.

IrishProd wrote: »

Civil service & public sector pay for bureaucrats, paid for by the taxpayer, you & me, should not be over 100k, it is unjustifiable

Although I agree for the most parts, if you pay peanuts, you get monkies. Esp when it comes to the failing health service, finance sector, etc.

IrishProd wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but hasn't it been FF who have been at the helm of this state every single time that there has been an economic meltdown and social upheaval, when FG come in then, they tax ordinary people through the roof and cut services like FF, not so much though for people like Denis O'Brien.

FF brings us down, FG comes into power, sets all the correct pieces up, and before they can reap what they sowed, FG get replaced. I'd wonder what the country would be like had FG stayed in power after they set up the ball rolling for the "boom" times?

IrishProd wrote: »

On that note, Sinn Féin are the mostly popular party for under 30s, and many branches in Irish universities have larger membership and are more active than the other parties for the most part. (I am a recent university graduate in political science :eek:, so I know this for a fact.)

And when they leave college, and find the real world harsh, do they stay with SF, or do they vote for a party that has an actual plan to get them jobs?

=-=

If we are to ignore SF's recent past, why not also ignore FF's recent past?

Banjo String

Godge wrote: »

P.S. The Omagh bombing took place 16 years ago while the Civil War ended 92 years ago, get some dates right.

The Omagh bombing?

Are you attempting to connect the bombing in Omagh to Sinn Fein?

Godge

Banjo String wrote: »

The Omagh bombing?

Are you attempting to connect the bombing in Omagh to Sinn Fein?

There would have been no Omagh bombing without the IRA and the SF apologists. The creation of a culture of acceptability of violent action against innocents was one of SF's darker legacies.

Godge

the_syco wrote: »

If we are to ignore SF's recent past, why not also ignore FF's recent past?

A very good point.

I will not vote for FF ever again because of the way they ruined the country in the recent past. I cannot see myself voting for SF either on the same basis of their support for the terrorist campaign.

It would be interesting to see some of those who argue that we should forgive and forget what SF did (while the likes of Ferris, McGuinness and Adams are around) argue that we should do the same for FF (while the likes of Martin and O'Dea are still around).

Banjo String

Godge wrote: »

There would have been no Omagh bombing without the IRA and the SF apologists. The creation of a culture of acceptability of violent action against innocents was one of SF's darker legacies.

So let me be clear, you're shouldering the blame of the Omagh bombing on Sinn Fein?

Dan_Solo

comongethappy wrote: »

Ireland is not "endemically corrupt".
Ireland is deemed to be one of the lesser corrupt countries in the world.
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/

Deemed is the word here alright. That seems to be an opinion poll rather than anything definitive.
There may be nothing definitive of course.

Dan_Solo

mikep wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/sinn-feins-ferris-defiant-in-support-for-gardas-killers-as-public-revulsion-grows-27920924.html

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/ferris-defends-meeting-with-released-mccabe-killers-27385970.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sinn-fein-defend-gerry-adams-laissez-faire-comments-over-ruc-deaths-29812389.html

Can't find these bomber link...at work!

Not much there about the struggle for freedom etc. Wouldn't triumphalism require some sort of pride in defeating the Brits etc in their promo material etc?

Dan_Solo

Blowfish wrote: »

So, even if we were to assume that this was a so called fact, nobody on this thread yet has actually produced one credible reason to vote for SF over anybody else who hasn't been in power since independence or even one credible way that SF would have done anything better, where as there have been plenty of reasons given not to vote for them.

The question then is why the ULA or AAA or whoever can't seem to steal SF's vote. They're fairly aligned economically and philosophically except for the bombs and guns bit.

Gott

I'm sure it's been mentioned elsewhere but the fact that they're screeching NO to every cut implemented by the government down south whilst merrily making cuts with their new bezzies, the DUP, in Stormont shouldn't be overlooked.
As many people have pointed out their economic vision for Ireland has a tenuous link with reality and would most likely drive multinationals away from Ireland.
That, more than their links with the IRA, is why I wouldn't vote for them. Their younger politicians like Mary Lou and Pearse Doherty hardly have any links to the IRA.

GaelMise

Red Kev wrote: »

My biggest issue with SF, and the reason that I won't vote for them is that they oppose cuts in the Republic of Ireland but implement the exact same cuts in Northern Ireland where they are in power. Utter populists, something I despise in politics, be it on the left or right.

Fallicy argument. Whatever you think of SF, refusing to recognise that they do not have the power to raise taxes in the north and pretending that they are choosing to implement cuts instead is simply a falsehood.
They get a fixed lump sum from westminister, if it does not cover the cost of all services, they have no option but to cut.

K-9

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The question then is why the ULA or AAA or whoever can't seem to steal SF's vote. They're fairly aligned economically and philosophically except for the bombs and guns bit.

I'd say the ULA would argue vehemently that they aren't in anyway economically aligned with SF!

SF have moved more to the center over the last 10 years, and in particular their economic proposals have shifted over the last couple of years. It's similar to how Labour changed from the 80's, through the 90's to the current version.

To put it in left wing political evolutionary terms, ULA/PFP would be old school Labour/Kemmy Socialists, Labour are Blairite and SF are in the middle, but shifting to the center as that is what appeals to the electorate..