Why are Sinn Fein "bad"?

Dan_Solo

carpejugulum wrote: »

They don't proclaim it, but that would be the result of their policies.

Oh. You said SF wanted to reduce wealth and were proud of the fact. Now you are saying they don't say this at all but that is what will happen with their economic policy.
Bit different those two things is all.

Dan_Solo

carpejugulum wrote: »

Tax the rich is of course nonsense. In practice, ordinary tax payers would have to pay more while the super rich would get richer thanks to even more wealth transferred to them through welfare and government spending.

Pardon? The rich will get higher welfare payments under Sinn Fein? That's well hidden in their manifesto!

Agent Smith

turnikett1 wrote: »

But regardless, I am curious as to why people give Sinn Fein a lot of grief. I mainly see it on boards but I have seen it in other places and real life too. If you think FF/FG/Labour are preferrable please tell why

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27232731


Comes to mind...


Untill they ditch the Northern Troubles Elements, they were always going to be seen as tainted by a portion of the population

errlloyd

Well... There you have it OP, discussion over, point made, thread locked?

Charlie George

SF are a marxist party,and they believe that we the workers should prop up the lazy so and sos who never got up off there arse during the boom and the country should keep them at a comfortable level,while at a level underneath them is the family who bought houses during the boom while they were working,lost there jobs and are up to there eyeballs to try and pay back whatever they can to the banks.
Who should we as a nation try to protect.SF thinks we should protect the so called poor(the ones who never got off there arses).
I think there should be a two tiered social welfare system where the ones who tried there best and contributed to society and lost there jobs be looked after by social and the ones who never contributed be cut after maybe 5 years on dole and then maybe 8 years cut again.
When they cant have there sky sports in there free house it might click a switch to try and look for a job.

Nodin

Charlie George wrote: »

SF are a marxist party,and they believe that we the workers should prop up the lazy so and sos who never got up off there arse during the boom and the country should keep them at a comfortable level,while at a level underneath them is the family who bought houses during the boom while they were working,lost there jobs and are up to there eyeballs to try and pay back whatever they can to the banks..

No, they aren't.

Charlie George wrote: »

Who should we as a nation try to protect.SF thinks we should protect the so called poor(the ones who never got off there arses).
I think there should be a two tiered social welfare system where the ones who tried there best and contributed to society and lost there jobs be looked after by social and the ones who never contributed be cut after maybe 5 years on dole and then maybe 8 years cut again.
When they cant have there sky sports in there free house it might click a switch to try and look for a job.

Non-factual, and stereotyping the unemployed.

Dan_Solo

Charlie George wrote: »

SF are a marxist party,and they believe that we the workers should prop up the lazy so and sos who never got up off there arse during the boom and the country should keep them at a comfortable level,while at a level underneath them is the family who bought houses during the boom while they were working,lost there jobs and are up to there eyeballs to try and pay back whatever they can to the banks.
Who should we as a nation try to protect.SF thinks we should protect the so called poor(the ones who never got off there arses).
I think there should be a two tiered social welfare system where the ones who tried there best and contributed to society and lost there jobs be looked after by social and the ones who never contributed be cut after maybe 5 years on dole and then maybe 8 years cut again.
When they cant have there sky sports in there free house it might click a switch to try and look for a job.

All poor people are lazy? does that mean all rich people work hard? :rolleyes:

Charlie George

Dan_Solo wrote: »

All poor people are lazy? does that mean all rich people work hard? :rolleyes:

If you read my post you would see im referring to the people that never worked a day in there life and contributed nothing to society.

Dan_Solo

Charlie George wrote: »

If you read my post you would see im referring to the people that never worked a day in there life and contributed nothing to society.

Quite easy for someone entering the workforce 3-4 years ago would never get a job, so you'd cut their dole (which is already cut for no reason really for under 23s).

The Diabolical Monocle

Charlie George wrote: »

SF are a marxist party,and they believe that we the workers should prop up the lazy so and sos who never got up off there arse during the boom and the country should keep them at a comfortable level,while at a level underneath them is the family who bought houses during the boom while they were working,lost there jobs and are up to there eyeballs to try and pay back whatever they can to the banks.
Who should we as a nation try to protect.SF thinks we should protect the so called poor(the ones who never got off there arses).
I think there should be a two tiered social welfare system where the ones who tried there best and contributed to society and lost there jobs be looked after by social and the ones who never contributed be cut after maybe 5 years on dole and then maybe 8 years cut again.
When they cant have there sky sports in there free house it might click a switch to try and look for a job.

There are plenty of poor people would have passed their English exams.
They're harder working in that regard than some who didn't bother their arses yet are there to point their fingers and make their baseless accusations. Oh well, I guess they're out there with their assumptions.

MayoSalmon

How they don't get rid of that clown Adams is beyond me...he is intrinsically linked with the troubles.

Mary Lou would have a much better shot without him in the way at least.

Happyman42

MayoSalmon wrote: »

How they don't get rid of that clown Adams is beyond me...he is intrinsically linked with the troubles.

Think really hard about that and you will come up with an answer, I swear.
Think about things like integrity, refusing to do things just to be popular, not accepting that they have anything to apologise for etc etc.

Tabnabs

Happyman42 wrote: »

Think about things like integrity, refusing to do things just to be popular, not accepting that they have anything to apologise for etc etc.

And that sums up so eloquently why SF are a poison brand for so many Irish voters. People over 30 who remember the murders, the bombings, the punishment shootings and beatings, the garda shootings, the robberies and the thuggery that appeared nightly on the news in homes around the country for decades.

Integrity and not apologising? The SF dictionary is a very warped piece of fiction indeed. :mad:

Bannasidhe

Tabnabs wrote: »

And that sums up so eloquently why SF are a poison brand for so many Irish voters. People over 30 who remember the murders, the bombings, the punishment shootings and beatings, the garda shootings, the robberies and the thuggery that appeared nightly on the news in homes around the country for decades.

Integrity and not apologising? The SF dictionary is a very warped piece of fiction indeed. :mad:

I am decades over 30 and I also remember the murder of peaceful civil rights protesters by members of the British Army which led to a ground swell of support for SF and the PIRA across the country. I remember the Dublin bombings. I remember the Shankill Butchers. I remember the Divis Flats. I remember seeing Ian Paisley spew hatred on TV but SF were silenced. I remember being searched by a British solider from Liverpool as I tried to gain entry to Belfast city centre* - apparently my accent made me suspect. Think about that for a second. Having a nice middle class Cork accent while in Belfast was enough for me to be suspect...

*Belfast city centre basically had a cage around it. If one pronounced the letter H as 'aitch' one was unlikely to be searched - say 'haitch' however...

You write as if SF existed in a vacuum where everything was really hunky dory in NI and they were just trouble makers. No - it was NOT hunky dory. It was an apartheid set-up and they reacted to that having been abandoned by the so-called 'republicans' in the South.

Would YOU take a shoot to kill policy lying down?

Would YOU accept not being employed by Local Authorities for considering yourself Irish on the island of Ireland?

Would You shrug your shoulders as armed soldiers and a police force you would not be welcome to join view you as the enemy in your own country (and like it or not even if one considers NI as part of the UK they were still in their own country being British citizens) because you come from a republican background or your name is Siobhán or Dónal or Padraig or Sinead?

Conditions in NI were akin to that experienced in the South during the worst of the Black and Tan years but lasted for decades and condemning people for fighting back when they were abandoned shows a complete ignorance of the situation as it existed in NI.

The fact is without SF that situation would be on-going. Reynolds/Aherne/Mowlam/Mitchell could do nothing unless SF convinced the PIRA to ceasefire - which they did. Even Paisley accepted this so it's a bit rich that people who did not live through those days being safely cosseted in the 'Irish Republic' are still so quick to point the finger and condemn.

marienbad

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I am decades over 30 and I also remember the murder of peaceful civil rights protesters by members of the British Army which led to a ground swell of support for SF and the PIRA across the country. I remember the Dublin bombings. I remember the Shankill Butchers. I remember the Divis Flats. I remember seeing Ian Paisley spew hatred on TV but SF were silenced. I remember being searched by a British solider from Liverpool as I tried to gain entry to Belfast city centre* - apparently my accent made me suspect. Think about that for a second. Having a nice middle class Cork accent while in Belfast was enough for me to be suspect...

*Belfast city centre basically had a cage around it. If one pronounced the letter H as 'aitch' one was unlikely to be searched - say 'haitch' however...

You write as if SF existed in a vacuum where everything was really hunky dory in NI and they were just trouble makers. No - it was NOT hunky dory. It was an apartheid set-up and they reacted to that having been abandoned by the so-called 'republicans' in the South.

Would YOU take a shoot to kill policy lying down?

Would YOU accept not being employed by Local Authorities for considering yourself Irish on the island of Ireland?

Would You shrug your shoulders as armed soldiers and a police force you would not be welcome to join view you as the enemy in your own country (and like it or not even if one considers NI as part of the UK they were still in their own country being British citizens) because you come from a republican background or your name is Siobhán or Dónal or Padraig or Sinead?

Conditions in NI were akin to that experienced in the South during the worst of the Black and Tan years but lasted for decades and condemning people for fighting back when they were abandoned shows a complete ignorance of the situation as it existed in NI.

The fact is without SF that situation would be on-going. Reynolds/Aherne/Mowlam/Mitchell could do nothing unless SF convinced the PIRA to ceasefire - which they did. Even Paisley accepted this so it's a bit rich that people who did not live through those days being safely cosseted in the 'Irish Republic' are still so quick to point the finger and condemn.

This is such a skewed view particularly as relates to politics in the Republic it is difficult to even know where to begin.

Happyman42

Tabnabs wrote: »

And that sums up so eloquently why SF are a poison brand for so many Irish voters. People over 30 who remember the murders, the bombings, the punishment shootings and beatings, the garda shootings, the robberies and the thuggery that appeared nightly on the news in homes around the country for decades.

Integrity and not apologising? The SF dictionary is a very warped piece of fiction indeed. :mad:

On the rise in the polls that everybody is sooo keen to use when it suits. Poison you say?
I lived through all you mention above but I also seen what caused it, and came to understand why the lid came off and who reneged on their responsibilities to put it back on.
It is no accident that it is their 'brand' that is in decline.

old hippy

Bannasidhe, as ever, can be relied on making some eloquent points. I usually agree with her. However; this is about SF and not the horrors that the British forces/loyalists inflicted on the 6 counties/NI statelet.

Gerry Adam's arrest by appointment (politically motivated or not) makes it difficult (but not impossible) for some, not to see SF as "bad". Personally, I think SF would do well to distance themselves from the past, as epitomized by Mr Adams.

Bannasidhe

marienbad wrote: »

This is such a skewed view particularly as relates to politics in the Republic it is difficult to even know where to begin.

It is?

Why don't you educate me so?

Do you deny that 13 people were murdered by British soldiers on Bloody Sunday during a peaceful civil rights march?

Do you deny the existence of the Shankill Butchers?

Do you deny the Dublin Bombing happened?

Do you deny the existence of a Shoot to Kill policy?

Do you deny the existence of a cage around Belfast city centre?

Do you deny that the RUC was heavily biased towards the Unionist population?

Are you claiming that all the population of NI was treated equally by the authorities?

Are you claiming the the Irish government acted to protect people in NI?

Are you claiming SF was not censored?

Tell me exactly where I am wrong.

Tell me I was not searched in April 1983 in Belfast just because I wanted to go into the city centre while in possession of a Cork accent.

Tell me my colleague (an internationally recognised historian) who is from an East Belfast protestant background is lying when he says he grew up in an such an apartheid system that the first 'Irish Catholics' he met were fellow students from the Republic at Cambridge University in 1979.

Show me how SF and the PIRA came about in a peaceful vacuum where everything in NI was so hunky dory that very ordinary people of Derry took to the streets to peacefully protest about full enjoyment of civil rights and were accidentally shot.

Explain to me how the slogan 'Donegal Road where the Fenians don't go' was a bit of light hearted teasing - as was the very prominent sign saying 'We Got One. We Got Two. We Got Thirteen More Than You' just over the border where the NI buses which collected passengers from the Republic liked to stop with their headlights illuminating that happy little slogan.

Tell me how a ceasefire was possible without SF?

After the Warrington bombing I proudly wore a t-shirt in London where I lived which declared that Republican paramilitaries did not represent me nor did I support them. However, I grew up safe and sound in leafy middle class Cork far removed from the situation in NI so I could sit on my high horse. I honestly cannot say how I would have reacted had I grown up in NI and had to live through the situation there.

The fact remains - SF were instrumental in securing a ceasefire. They got the PIRA to lay down their arms - not FF/FG/LP who abandoned Irish citizens living in NI to their fate for decades.

But sure - let's all follow Enda's lead an shout about Jean McConville rather than deal with the now. How Gerry Adams isn't shouting back asking Enda about Collins signing Harry Boland's execution order is a mystery to me as it is just as, not, relevant to the business of the Dáil.

Blowfish

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It is?

Why don't you educate me so?

Do you deny that 13 people were murdered by British soldiers on Bloody Sunday during a peaceful civil rights march?

Do you deny the existence of the Shankill Butchers?

Do you deny the Dublin Bombing happened?

Do you deny the existence of a Shoot to Kill policy?

Do you deny the existence of a cage around Belfast city centre?

Do you deny that the RUC was heavily biased towards the Unionist population?

Are you claiming that all the population of NI was treated equally by the authorities?

Are you claiming the the Irish government acted to protect people in NI?

Are you claiming SF was not censored?

Tell me exactly where I am wrong.

Tell me I was not searched in April 1983 in Belfast just because I wanted to go into the city centre while in possession of a Cork accent.

Tell me my colleague (an internationally recognised historian) who is from an East Belfast protestant background is lying when he says he grew up in an such an apartheid system that the first 'Irish Catholics' he met were fellow students from the Republic at Cambridge University in 1979.

Show me how SF and the PIRA came about in a peaceful vacuum where everything in NI was so hunky dory that very ordinary people of Derry took to the streets to peacefully protest about full enjoyment of civil rights and were accidentally shot.

Explain to me how the slogan 'Donegal Road where the Fenians don't go' was a bit of light hearted teasing - as was the very prominent sign saying 'We Got One. We Got Two. We Got Thirteen More Than You' just over the border where the NI buses which collected passengers from the Republic liked to stop with their headlights illuminating that happy little slogan.

Tell me how a ceasefire was possible without SF?

After the Warrington bombing I proudly wore a t-shirt in London where I lived which declared that Republican paramilitaries did not represent me nor did I support them. However, I grew up safe and sound in leafy middle class Cork far removed from the situation in NI so I could sit on my high horse. I honestly cannot say how I would have reacted had I grown up in NI and had to live through the situation there.

The fact remains - SF were instrumental in securing a ceasefire. They got the PIRA to lay down their arms - not FF/FG/LP who abandoned Irish citizens living in NI to their fate for decades.

Grand. Now what exactly from all of that means that it'd be a good idea to vote for them in ROI?

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But sure - let's all follow Enda's lead an shout about Jean McConville rather than deal with the now. How Gerry Adams isn't shouting back asking Enda about Collins signing Harry Boland's execution order is a mystery to me as it is just as, not, relevant to the business of the Dáil.

Gerry is a standing TD in the Dail, I think it's pretty damn obvious that the possibility of him being involved in a murder is far far more relevant to the Dail now than stuff that happened 80+ years ago.

Tabnabs

Classic SF rhetoric - any hard questions about the association of Sinn Féin with IRA atrocities over the decades of the Northern troubles is regarded as unfair, biased, and/or irrelevant.

Bannasidhe

old hippy wrote: »

Bannasidhe, as ever, can be relied on making some eloquent points. I usually agree with her. However; this is about SF and not the horrors that the British forces/loyalists inflicted on the 6 counties/NI statelet.

Gerry Adam's arrest by appointment (politically motivated or not) makes it difficult (but not impossible) for some, not to see SF as "bad". Personally, I think SF would do well to distance themselves from the past, as epitomized by Mr Adams.

My point is the SF and the PIRA did not act in a vacuum as some seem to think.

It was an appalling situation with atrocities committed by both sides and the utter failure of both Westminster and Dublin to act to protect people from Sectarian discrimination.

But some people don't want to hear or acknowledge that but are still ready to condemn one side while remaining silent/denying the actions of the other. Either events in NI are relevant or they are not. If they are relevant - have the decency not to be so bloody biased and acknowledge the horrors committed by both sides.

If they are not relevant - people shouldn't keep bringing them up.

I don't think SF will distance themselves from Adams a la FF and Bertie. I think they are playing a very, very clever long game. I said at the time of the presidential campaign that I believed McGuinness had no desire to be President but was running as a stalking horse to flush the old SF/PIRA arguments out - I believe they are doing the same with Adams. He will attract the same old roars about the PIRA and then stand aside for the likes of MacDonald who has no connection to the paramilitaries. What will Enda use to try and silence her in the Dail???

Also, it is actually refreshing to see an Irish political party play a long game as opposed to the reactive short-term fixes we are used to from the Big Three.

Bannasidhe

Tabnabs wrote: »

Classic SF rhetoric - any hard questions about the association of Sinn Féin with IRA atrocities over the decades of the Northern troubles is regarded as unfair, biased, and/or irrelevant.

Is that aimed at me?

If it is - where did I say it was unfair?

I said they did not occur in a vacuum - do you believe they did?

Rather than accuse me of spouting SF rhetoric - strange as I have never even voted for them - how about you deal with the points I made?

twowheelsgood

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Rather than accuse me of spouting SF rhetoric - strange as I have never even voted for them - how about you deal with the points I made?

Short answer. The actions of PIRA would have been justified if they were limited to defending Northern nationalists, or even agitating for reform.

Their sins relate to their "enlarged" project - the use of force to being about a united Ireland against the wishes of the Irish people.

Bannasidhe

Blowfish wrote: »

Grand. Now what exactly from all of that means that it'd be a good idea to vote for them in ROI?

Gerry is a standing TD in the Dail, I think it's pretty damn obvious that the possibility of him being involved in a murder is far far more relevant to the Dail now than stuff that happened 80+ years ago.

Do you?

If Adams was involved he should be punished.

That 'stuff that happened 80 years+ years ago' - do you mean the formation of the State most of us live in? Sure. That has nothing at all at all do do with now even though there are people still alive who remember it all very well.

What about events that happened in 1972 - are they relevant?

What about 1994? Are they relevant?

At what point do we cut off and consign it all to the history bin?
10 years? 20? 30???

Dan_Solo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

At what point do we cut off and consign it all to the history bin?
10 years? 20? 30???

In the case of Fianna Fail is seems every 8 years or so. :-)

Tabnabs

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Is that aimed at me?

If it is - where did I say it was unfair?

I said they did not occur in a vacuum - do you believe they did?

Rather than accuse me of spouting SF rhetoric - strange as I have never even voted for them - how about you deal with the points I made?

Both yourself and Happyman42 deflect and justify the decades of atrocities that were carried out by the PIRA and the direct connection with SF. This isn't about the British atrocities, the loyalist atrocities, the Irish Government neglect, this is about SF's complete lack of integrity, honesty, morality and character. The OPs question is why is SF "bad". The answer is that there are a majority of Irish voters who remember exactly why a vote for SF will never be acceptable.

K-9

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What about events that happened in 1972 - are they relevant?

What about 1994? Are they relevant?

At what point do we cut off and consign it all to the history bin?
10 years? 20? 30???

That's a good point and unfortunately in the zero sum game that is N.I. politics it is difficult to address it. I can perfectly understand why people would bring up Ballymurphy when Adams gets arrested.

But still, the leader of SF has questions to answer about his involvement. Time will tell if his consistent denials of past membership of the IRA Army Council are lies to the electorate, or not.

Bannasidhe

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Short answer. The actions of PIRA would have been justified if they were limited to defending Northern nationalists, or even agitating for reform.

Their sins relate to their "enlarged" project - the use of force to being about a united Ireland against the wishes of the Irish people.

I am not disagreeing.

However, I also did not grow up with what I considered an occupying force watching my every move or within a discriminatory Sectarian society so I honestly cannot say how I would have reacted upon seeing how the Authorities reacted when armed soldiers opened fire on people who were peacefully 'agitating for reform'.

Tell me - where the 'original' IRB/IRA actions all 'justified' - they bombed and murdered in the UK too...hell, in 1866 some of them even attempted to invade Canada - that's what I call 'enlarging'...

Happyman42

Tabnabs wrote: »

Both yourself and Happyman42 deflect and justify the decades of atrocities that were carried out by the PIRA and the direct connection with SF. This isn't about the British atrocities, the loyalist atrocities, the Irish Government neglect, this is about SF's complete lack of integrity, honesty, morality and character. The OPs question is why is SF "bad". The answer is that there are a majority of Irish voters who remember exactly why a vote for SF will never be acceptable.

A dwindling majority it seems. A majority of an in between generation, happy to enjoy the fruits of independence, but not to keen to look honestly at how it was achieved.
But keep wittering on about integrity, honesty morality and character why don't you? :rolleyes:

Bannasidhe

Tabnabs wrote: »

Both yourself and Happyman42 deflect and justify the decades of atrocities that were carried out by the PIRA and the direct connection with SF. This isn't about the British atrocities, the loyalist atrocities, the Irish Government neglect, this is about SF's complete lack of integrity, honesty, morality and character. The OPs question is why is SF "bad". The answer is that there are a majority of Irish voters who remember exactly why a vote for SF will never be acceptable.

How exactly is saying both sides committed atrocities deflecting?

Sooo - it's not about anything that happened in NI but look at how SF acted in NI with a 'complete lack of integrity, honesty, morality and character'???

Or do you mean they acted that act that way in the Republic as NI is not up for discussion. What exactly did they do 'down here' that demonstrated their 'complete lack of integrity, honesty, morality and character' - did they do anything that comes close to Haughey? Burke? Lowry? Flynn??

Or is that outside the 30 years rules - did they go back on most of their election promises? - Oh, hang on, that was the current government....

Did they agree to bail out private banks and ner bankrupt the country without even bothering to find out the extent of the damage?...Oh, nope ...that was the previous government.

Tell you what - you show me an Irish political party that has demonstrated ' integrity, honesty, morality and character' and I promise I will vote for them - unless they are right wing .